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When would Empyrean Brain Mines go off, before or after challenges?

Brain Mines are after assault moves but before blows are struck. Challenges are also done after assault moves before blows are stuck at the start of any Fight Sub-phase.

So which would go first?

Without looking at the appropriate rules whose ever turn it is gets to decide. Or random selection. Can't remember off hand.

same time? Are you asking because you want to know if empyrean Brain Mines go off on the challenger/ed?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:same time? Are you asking because you want to know if empyrean Brain Mines go off on the challenger/ed?

Exactly especially if the challenger/ed might not be in base contact with the Librarian.

I would say they happen simultaniously, and since there is no conflicting rules I would say you don't roll off to see what happens first. So the person in the challange can get hit with Brain Mines. It makes sense within the rules and fluff so I see no problems here.

I would say you move the challengers first....since after issuing a challenge you might be required to move models into base to base.

Then after challenge moves are finished, all movement is finished that happens before blows are struck, and the mines can be thrown.

Problem arises from the fact that GW forgot to errata Brain Mine timing. If you're willing to use other FAQ entries as precedent (every other rule with the "after assault moves are made but before blows are struck" got errata'd to "Start of Fight Sub-phase".

So yes, Brain Mines and Challenges have simultaneous triggers. Good thing that in this edition GW made a rule how to resolve simultaneous events (page 9): Current player chooses what order to do them.

So if it is your turn, it will be Challenge -> Brain mines. Your opponent will most likely want to do it other way around.

I'm gonna just wait to see how MSS gets fixed into in the end. I'll just base brain mines off that.

sudojoe wrote:I'm gonna just wait to see how MSS gets fixed into in the end. I'll just base brain mines off that.

What do you mean by fixed? They're already errata'd to have the new timing in place. And in 6e, GW finally gave us rule how to resolve simultaneously activated wargear/special rules/events.

What do you mean by fixed? They're already errata'd to have the new timing in place. And in 6e, GW finally gave us rule how to resolve simultaneously activated wargear/special rules/events.

hrm.. I just read the necron FAQ and it doesn't say how to do it just the effects during a challenge. Where do we get the how to resolve simul rules section? I'm not seeing it in there.

Probably in the book somewhere but I'm at work atm, I'll try reading it again later.

Brb, Page 9: "At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur."

^ what GT said

Luide wrote:Brb, Page 9: "At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur."

Like the poster a few spots above mentioned.... as you don't know whether or not your opponent will accept hte challange and thus be required to move his model, it's best (IMO) to resolve MSS and/or the brain mines until after the challange is made (and subsequently accepted or rejected). It's the easiest path that doesn't leave you in rules limbo. The primary reason I think this is because I would consider the movement of a model as a result of an accepted challenge to be part of the 'after all assault moves, but before blows are struck' (paraphrasing) bit in both rules.

-Yad

There is no rules limbo. You decide the order, based on whose turn it is getting the choice

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no rules limbo. You decide the order, based on whose turn it is getting the choice

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, when two rules are supposed to be executed 'at the same time', the controlling player decides the order of execution. I'm fully aware of that mechanic. My reference to 'rules limbo' comes about if a player decides to resolve the MSS before a Challenge. As I stated in my post, I consider the movement of a model that comes about because of an accepted challenge to be movement within the Assault phase. Thus the player would be choosing to use MSS before all moves have been made. Since you won't know whether the player will choose to accept or reject a Challenge, you should resolve the Challenge first and then resolve MSS.

-Yad

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no rules limbo. You decide the order, based on whose turn it is getting the choice

Works for me Thanks Dakka!

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no rules limbo. You decide the order, based on whose turn it is getting the choice

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, when two rules are supposed to be executed 'at the same time', the controlling player decides the order of execution. I'm fully aware of that mechanic. My reference to 'rules limbo' comes about if a player decides to resolve the MSS before a Challenge. As I stated in my post, I consider the movement of a model that comes about because of an accepted challenge to be movement within the Assault phase. Thus the player would be choosing to use MSS before all moves have been made. Since you won't know whether the player will choose to accept or reject a Challenge, you should resolve the Challenge first and then resolve MSS.

-Yad

If they decide the MSS will go off first, check to see if any models are in base contact with the model with MSS. If not, MSS does nothing that turn. If so, resolve MSS as normal against those models. Then resolve your challenge. The model that was affected by MSS will attack himself or his unit as normal on his initiative. Since MSS is not an attack, there is nothing stating that the model affected by MSS has to be the model you are challenging, unless you resolve the challenge first. If MSS goes off first, it's perfectly okay for one model to be affected by MSS and another to be in a challenge with the model that had the MSS.

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no rules limbo. You decide the order, based on whose turn it is getting the choice

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, when two rules are supposed to be executed 'at the same time', the controlling player decides the order of execution. I'm fully aware of that mechanic. My reference to 'rules limbo' comes about if a player decides to resolve the MSS before a Challenge. As I stated in my post, I consider the movement of a model that comes about because of an accepted challenge to be movement within the Assault phase. Thus the player would be choosing to use MSS before all moves have been made. Since you won't know whether the player will choose to accept or reject a Challenge, you should resolve the Challenge first and then resolve MSS.

-Yad

Irrelevant. All that matters is who is in b2b when MSS is resolved. Movement after that isnt under the purview of MSS, and so there is no rules issue.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no rules limbo. You decide the order, based on whose turn it is getting the choice

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, when two rules are supposed to be executed 'at the same time', the controlling player decides the order of execution. I'm fully aware of that mechanic. My reference to 'rules limbo' comes about if a player decides to resolve the MSS before a Challenge. As I stated in my post, I consider the movement of a model that comes about because of an accepted challenge to be movement within the Assault phase. Thus the player would be choosing to use MSS before all moves have been made. Since you won't know whether the player will choose to accept or reject a Challenge, you should resolve the Challenge first and then resolve MSS.

-Yad

If they decide the MSS will go off first, check to see if any models are in base contact with the model with MSS. If not, MSS does nothing that turn. If so, resolve MSS as normal against those models. Then resolve your challenge. The model that was affected by MSS will attack himself or his unit as normal on his initiative. Since MSS is not an attack, there is nothing stating that the model affected by MSS has to be the model you are challenging, unless you resolve the challenge first. If MSS goes off first, it's perfectly okay for one model to be affected by MSS and another to be in a challenge with the model that had the MSS.

I get what you're saying, but it's not about which model MSS will end up potentially affecting, it's the requirement that MSS can only be used after all assault moves have been made (and before blows are struck). Because you don't necessarily know if a Challenge will be accepted, it's possible that a model will still need to be moved in the assault phase before blows are struck. I only think that scenario would only come into play if the models involved in a Challenge were not B2B though. If the models were already in B2B then there would be no further requirement for movement prior to blows being struck, thus the controlling player would then be free to determine the order of resolution.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no rules limbo. You decide the order, based on whose turn it is getting the choice

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Yes, when two rules are supposed to be executed 'at the same time', the controlling player decides the order of execution. I'm fully aware of that mechanic. My reference to 'rules limbo' comes about if a player decides to resolve the MSS before a Challenge. As I stated in my post, I consider the movement of a model that comes about because of an accepted challenge to be movement within the Assault phase. Thus the player would be choosing to use MSS before all moves have been made. Since you won't know whether the player will choose to accept or reject a Challenge, you should resolve the Challenge first and then resolve MSS.

-Yad

Irrelevant. All that matters is who is in b2b when MSS is resolved. Movement after that isnt under the purview of MSS, and so there is no rules issue.

MSS absolutely cares about movement, says so right in the rule. The MSS rule mechanic specifically calls for you to resolve it after all movement has been completed but before blows are struck. If you're trying to argue that a model that moves due to an accepted Challenge does not constitute movement...well, I simply disagree. All means all. I think you would be more correct in saying that MSS doesn't care about movement that occurs after blows are struck. It's a pretty specific scenario that I'm addressing, though one I think that would come up somewhat frequently.

-Yad

MSS timing has been errata'd to be "at the start of the Fight sub-phase". Exactly same time as challenges are done.
If you look at FAQs you'll see that same applies to almost all Psychic powers/wargear/special rules. GW didn't do it for few items (ex. Brain mines), but that's probably an oversight.

Yad - after all *assault moves*, which are Charges. Otherewise Pile Ins, which are moves in the assault phase, would count

They dont. There is absolutely no rules conflict here