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When I started I played Eldar. I love the fluff and the models. However, I never managed to get them off the ground and swopped for Space Puppies. With the dawn of 6th, I want my space elves back. So, is there any way of running Eldar in 6th. I don't need them to be ultra competitive, but I would like to be able to hold my own.

Just as a note, we generally play low points games.

Thanks guys and girls.

Small, Far Away wrote:When I started I played Eldar. I love the fluff and the models. However, I never managed to get them off the ground and swopped for Space Puppies. With the dawn of 6th, I want my space elves back. So, is there any way of running Eldar in 6th. I don't need them to be ultra competitive, but I would like to be able to hold my own.

Just as a note, we generally play low points games.

Thanks guys and girls.

with Eldar and DE it seems both got nerfed pretty badly in 6th but the allies rules are a big boon. Eldar and DE together are better than either separately.

eldar still have some strong units. harlies due to the faq are amazing, wraithlords are still tough as nails... the look on a meq player when they find otu thier long fang missiles are wounding on 4's is priceless. the change to cover makes it easy to ge ta 5+ cover save as well. eldar jet bikes can go wherever they want now and rangers due to alocating thier wounds on a 6 are pretty strong. they stand alone aren't in a grea tspot but eldar make a strong ally.

they'd make an excellent ally for space puppies why not use both

Hmm... hold your own at low points games.. for Eldar, that's kind of a tall order... my observation has been that Eldar can't really utilize any of their strengths as an army without a pretty decently high points limit.

One set up I can think of that might serve well at low points is the whole, giant blob of rabid guardians escorting the Avatar around. I've heard of it having good success, but it's not very true to Eldar lore, and I can't imagine it's very fun to play.

This isn't really the edition/codex for Eldar right now. They're by far the worst army.

Falconlance wrote:Hmm... hold your own at low points games.. for Eldar, that's kind of a tall order... my observation has been that Eldar can't really utilize any of their strengths as an army without a pretty decently high points limit.

One set up I can think of that might serve well at low points is the whole, giant blob of rabid guardians escorting the Avatar around. I've heard of it having good success, but it's not very true to Eldar lore, and I can't imagine it's very fun to play.

This is pretty wrong. Eldar do great in low points because of easy access to strength six. A farseer with runes of warding, 1 or 2 dragon squads in scatter laser + chin cannon serpent, rangers or bikes for troops and scatter laser or shuri cannon war walkers and you have a low point army capable of shooting nearly anything off the board. Massed s6 is more powerful than ever, and nobody does it like eldar.

That list is about a bummer and a half for an ork player who decided to take 90 boyz and a loota squad at 1000 points, but I can't imagine any of the imperial codices having trouble smearing that into the terrain. Most of the firepower is coming from the one unit of walkers, and it only takes a few autocannons from 4 feet away to shut that down.

DarknessEternal wrote:This isn't really the edition/codex for Eldar right now. They're by far the worst army.

That's a pretty bold statement with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Eldar got heaps of buffs in this edition or at least Eldar units that were competitive in the first place got buffs, as a 4th (actually really a 3rd) edition book they still have plenty of dud units but that's the same for all the books from that era. They now get 5++ across most of their army and even more mobility, S6 spam got a boost (still falls over vs Necrons but better against everything else), Falcons got better (and functionally cheaper since you don't need Holos now), Prisms got better, Support Weapon Batteries became viable (D Cannons are now harder to kill and remove basically any vehicle they shoot), a couple of the Phoenix Lords became viable and Pathfinders became semi viable, as did Jetbikes. That leaves you with a core of very effective skimmers, with the best psychic defence in the game, some of the best psychic powers in the game and Dragons to turn troublesome vehicles into slag, which is basically exactly where they were in 5th. All the assault units save Harlies got beaten over the head with the nerf bat, but they weren't competitive choices in 5th in the first place. However this isn't really an issue since you can now use Allies to bring Beasts/Terminators and other proper dedicated assault units, as well as set up nasty combos with Fortune/Doom and cover your lack of anti air capability.

Its very hard to say what the weakest codex is now, 6th has reigned in GK's and to a lesser extent Necrons (the old power builds anyway). Chaos Marines, Chaos Daemons, Eldar, Nids and Tau are probably the most in need of an update (due to various different combination of staleness/blandness and competitiveness), I would throw Orks into that mix as well but the insanity of T5 Nob Bikers should keep them very competitive for a while.

Falconlance wrote:That list is about a bummer and a half for an ork player who decided to take 90 boyz and a loota squad at 1000 points, but I can't imagine any of the imperial codices having trouble smearing that into the terrain. Most of the firepower is coming from the one unit of walkers, and it only takes a few autocannons from 4 feet away to shut that down.

Nothing fire prisms cant handle. Even Night spinners can hurt that. A 180 point Scatter laser war walker unit as well can bust out a ton of shots. a blob of 30 boyz is what.... 180 pts? (this is my guess judging the game I played last). Thats the same as my unit of war walkers. Those 90 boyz have to walk across the table also. I just played a game against orcs with my eldar and yea it wasnt a cake walk but It sure wasnt him whooping my butt the whole game either. Guided scatter laser war walkers shooting a doomed 30 man boy squad is brutal. is that like at least 50% casualties for the boyz?

Well, I haven't played a game in the 6th ed, since I'm still reading the boards and the rule book.

In the 5th, Eldar was good at lower point games but scaling up was the problem.
Now, in the 6th, I still think that Eldar is good at lower point levels: Farseer, 2 Serpents with DA, 1 or 2 Serpents with FD, Warwalkers.

1.) I'm thinking about Fire Prisms.... they were unkillable in 5th ed but didn't bring much "oomp" in firepower especially against tanks due to BS4 scattering....

But thanks to the new blast template rules.... the prism can really put a hurt in tanks while staying out of range. This was the biggest fix to an eldar issue: Cheap, long ranged anti tank. This means that I dont need to bring my fire dragons anymore especially when vehicles are considerably weaker.

2.) Mechdar is in terrible danger. And because troops inside vehicles cant score anymore, coupled with focus fire and reduced cover saves, one simply cannot have dire avengers holding the line. which brings me to thinking about bringing wraithguards...

3.) There goes my banshee anti TDA unit.... Because banshees will not dent TDA armor anymore, the wraithguards are becoming even more attractive option.

4.) Guardian Jetbikes - self explanatory.

Yea I am going to take out a loan/mortgage and fill up my army with some wraithguard for my all wraith list :-). The new Eldar codex or even 7th edition may be out before its complete lol.

Mechdar isn't really in danger, it just needs to adjust to possibly go slightly heavier on troops. All that changes is that you disembark enough of your DAVU onto objectives turn 5 to put yourself in a winning position (obviously all the issues with going first vs going second are still there), and then you do the same turn 6/7 if the game continues. If you find you are running out of scoring units then obviously a slight adjustment is needed, just take more lol. None of the other Eldar scoring units are that amazing in any case, Rangers/Pathfinders are slightly better now but still melt to flamers, and Guardians and Jetbikes can be targeted from turn 1 with anti infantry weaponry (rather than turn 5 if you run DAVU).

Dragons still melt Terminators better than Wraithguard in a mech list. On foot as a scoring unit Wraithguard are pretty solid now, but suffer from only being able to target a single unit (10 Wraithcannon shots kills any vehicle in the game except a flier).

@ Razgriz. I would be very surprised if the next Eldar update didn't include updated Wraithguard. They are very old and very static models and seriously need some new life (and hopefully new options as well).

Well, Wraithguard as troops. This means that the Wraithguard has to foot slog. This is not really an option in the 6th ed due to the new deployments.

^^

Doesn't have to, they still can take a ride. How ever, I don't think foot slogging is that bad.

Wave serpents just cost way too much and dies faster in 6th ed, then again we don't really have a choice here.

Wave Serpents die faster in the 6th edition. Not sure if this is really true due to the following reasoning:

1. Movement and shooting has improved in the 6th. The tank can move 12'' and fire two heavy weapons, like tl scatter laser and under slung shuricannon. That's an improvement when compared with the 5th.

2. Serpents always have a jink save of 5+ when moving (this is new) and an improved jink save when going flat out (as before).

3. A penetrating hit with an AP 1 or 2 weapon in the 6th is the same as a penetrating hit in the 5th. However, a penetrating hit with an AP 3 (or higher) weapon is less effective in the 6th due to the new armor penetration table.

4. What has signficantly changed are the glancing hits: 3 glances and the tank is gone. However, inflicting 3 glances can be hard for several armies. Note that before the enemy can inflict 3 glances the tank could have delivered its payload or dished out serious damage.

Serpents are harder to kill with shooting thanks to the reduced damage charts and 5+ cover, but easier to kill in assault since they now get hit easier (and there is no way to get around the fact you have to get up close to deliver Dragons etc). Overall I would say they work out roughly the same, so are definitely usable.

The hull point/glancing system isn't that bad for Serpents since they are AV12. This is now a noticeable jump from AV11 since it puts you outside of the damage potential of torrent of fire anti infantry weapons, which are what really make Rhinos etc so fragile now.

Powerguy wrote:Serpents are harder to kill with shooting thanks to the reduced damage charts and 5+ cover, but easier to kill in assault since they now get hit easier (and there is no way to get around the fact you have to get up close to deliver Dragons etc). Overall I would say they work out roughly the same, so are definitely usable.

The hull point/glancing system isn't that bad for Serpents since they are AV12. This is now a noticeable jump from AV11 since it puts you outside of the damage potential of torrent of fire anti infantry weapons, which are what really make Rhinos etc so fragile now.

Thanks for point out, Serpents go down earlier in assault. To keep a Serpent alive, you better use it as a gun boat keeping the enemy at arm's length or as a transport delivering its payload (e.g., Fire Dragons, Council on foot) before it gets assaulted.

I've found that Striking Scorpions work well in small games. They can take a pounding in overwatch, with their 3+ armour saves.

If we're leaving the tanks at home, I'd use:
Jetbikes and Pathfinders for scoring,
Dark Reapers for taking out anyone sticking out from cover,
War Walkers for mass firepower,
Wraithlords for anti-MC, where the Reapers can't reach,
Swooping Hawks for AT.

I know, most of these are thought to be pretty bad units, but some have got a boost in 6th.

Skinnereal wrote:I've found that Striking Scorpions work well in small games. They can take a pounding in overwatch, with their 3+ armour saves.

If we're leaving the tanks at home, I'd use:
Jetbikes and Pathfinders for scoring,
Dark Reapers for taking out anyone sticking out from cover,
War Walkers for mass firepower,
Wraithlords for anti-MC, where the Reapers can't reach,
Swooping Hawks for AT.

I know, most of these are thought to be pretty bad units, but some have got a boost in 6th.

In fact, some of the listed units were bad in the 5th and are still bad in the 6th.
Warwalkers are even better thanks to the new squadron rules.
Dark Reapers are better now due to reduced cover saves. But you have to stick them into good cover, otherwise they good down early.
Pathfinders are decent in the 6th, but I still stay away from SH's and GJB's.

wuestenfux wrote:

Skinnereal wrote:I've found that Striking Scorpions work well in small games. They can take a pounding in overwatch, with their 3+ armour saves.

If we're leaving the tanks at home, I'd use:
Jetbikes and Pathfinders for scoring,
Dark Reapers for taking out anyone sticking out from cover,
War Walkers for mass firepower,
Wraithlords for anti-MC, where the Reapers can't reach,
Swooping Hawks for AT.

I know, most of these are thought to be pretty bad units, but some have got a boost in 6th.

In fact, some of the listed units were bad in the 5th and are still bad in the 6th.
Warwalkers are even better thanks to the new squadron rules.
Dark Reapers are better now due to reduced cover saves. But you have to stick them into good cover, otherwise they good down early.
Pathfinders are decent in the 6th, but I still stay away from SH's and GJB's.

I have found GJB to be way more useful in 6th The new jetbike rules give them incredible movement, and the HoW attack almost makes it so a unit can assault one marine. They're still fragile like they have always been, but what do we expect from our fancy elves...

Powerguy wrote:Serpents are harder to kill with shooting thanks to the reduced damage charts and 5+ cover, but easier to kill in assault since they now get hit easier (and there is no way to get around the fact you have to get up close to deliver Dragons etc).

Bear in mind though that infantry can move after disembarking. So in theory you can park your Wave Serpent 18" from the target, disembark and move 6", then fire your 12" facemeltas. Granted, you wouldn't get your melta at half-range bonus, but you don't always need that...

Well, mech Eldar is still viable.

Serpents are still hard to kill via shooting. In particular, autocannons have now a harder time take them down via penetrating hits thanks to the changed armor penetration table.

The downsides are that (1) a unit cannot charge after disembarking; but with DA and FD as transported units, who wants to charge, and (2) a unit hit a tank in cc much easier; this could bring down Serpents quite easily. Here the tactics is to hold the enemy at arm's length which should be doable with Warwalkers, Fire Prisms, and Serpent armament (2 weapons be shot while moving 12'').

stuffah wrote:
Bear in mind though that infantry can move after disembarking. So in theory you can park your Wave Serpent 18" from the target, disembark and move 6", then fire your 12" facemeltas. Granted, you wouldn't get your melta at half-range bonus, but you don't always need that...

If you're Eldar transport is 18" from the enemy, the door is further away. After disembarking, they'll probably still have most of the squad out of range.

Eldar are far from dead. As stated multiple times, they can spam S6 shots like no one else. Eldrad is almost broken with Divination Powers. Guiding a unit, giving them a 4++, and making a unit reroll armour saves is a nasty combo that if done to a War Walker squad should kill most things it shoots at. A guided War Walker Squad firing at a 10 man Termie squad with the reroll failed Armour save power will kill 4.5 Termies a turn. If a second Walker squad is guided and shoots, they kill the unit in one turn.

Swooping Hawks can kill any vehicle in one assault. Rangers are good with precision shots being AP1, (My suggestion, don't use it for Characters, but rather special weapon guys).

Another thing that makes War Walkers great, is squadron rules really improved. Gone is the days of firing into a unit and stunning everyone in it. Now for the most part, they are either dead or shooting.

jbunny wrote:Eldar are far from dead. As stated multiple times, they can spam S6 shots like no one else.

S6 is all nice and well, but what are you doing vs Necron AV13 spam? Fire Dragons, yes. But you have only three squads, while they can realistically have six AV13 vehicles at 1000 points (2 CCB, 2 Ghost Arks, 2 Annihilation Barges).
Also against that kind of army you WILL lose your Wave Serpents carrying the Fire Dragons, making them a 180 points suicide unit instead of an 80 points one.

Disregard all theis Eldar suck nonsense, I've been playing eldar for a while, but I've never had wins like I do in sixth. Although some of the good units have shifted. Heres my advice, when playing space elves you've got a few places that need special attention , tactical formations and careful placements, bringing lots of armor/ high toughness wraith models to soak up for your units like farseers, or you can go all out with jet-F****-bikes. I personally wanted to switch to a whole jetbike army when I saw the Sixth ed rules, there just so cool now. Anyways just things to think about, if you do a little research you'll have a lot of fun with them, cheers.

Cypher's Sword wrote:Disregard all theis Eldar suck nonsense, I've been playing eldar for a while, but I've never had wins like I do in sixth. Although some of the good units have shifted. Heres my advice, when playing space elves you've got a few places that need special attention , tactical formations and careful placements, bringing lots of armor/ high toughness wraith models to soak up for your units like farseers, or you can go all out with jet-F****-bikes. I personally wanted to switch to a whole jetbike army when I saw the Sixth ed rules, there just so cool now. Anyways just things to think about, if you do a little research you'll have a lot of fun with them, cheers.

I second this guy's stance on jet bikes in 6th, but before anyone goes out and buys a bunch of bikes I would like to point out that the rumor mill has been turning and it's putting Eldar closer to the front of the line. Very recently there has been talk of all kinds of new plastic kits, including jet bikes, so keep that in consideration if you are playing with the idea of buying a bunch of the current biker models.

Falconlance wrote:

Cypher's Sword wrote:Disregard all theis Eldar suck nonsense, I've been playing eldar for a while, but I've never had wins like I do in sixth. Although some of the good units have shifted. Heres my advice, when playing space elves you've got a few places that need special attention , tactical formations and careful placements, bringing lots of armor/ high toughness wraith models to soak up for your units like farseers, or you can go all out with jet-F****-bikes. I personally wanted to switch to a whole jetbike army when I saw the Sixth ed rules, there just so cool now. Anyways just things to think about, if you do a little research you'll have a lot of fun with them, cheers.

I second this guy's stance on jet bikes in 6th, but before anyone goes out and buys a bunch of bikes I would like to point out that the rumor mill has been turning and it's putting Eldar closer to the front of the line. Very recently there has been talk of all kinds of new plastic kits, including jet bikes, so keep that in consideration if you are playing with the idea of buying a bunch of the current biker models.

thanks lance, and to second his comment check out kroothawk's post here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/463557.page

Necron AV 13 you say? What about rear armour being hit from assaults? Key in swooping hawks. Correct me if Im wrong, but also, doesnt av13 front and sides only last until one hit goes through? Falcons Pulse laser will tear that up. Or howbout a twin linked bright lance on the top of that wave serpent? A little more costly but if my math is right youd have a 5/6 chance to hit at 48" (twin linked BS4), Lance drops 13 down to 12, S8 vs AV12 is 2/6 chance to penetrate (one a 5 or 6). Correct me if im wrong but isnt that 28% so about 1/4 shots youll penn? Ok after the math that doesnt sound the hottest. haha. But every shot helps. A guided Falcon can bust that with a little luck.

Also just thought about Eldar missile launchers. A group of 3 war walkers with all EML's costs 210 pts. Not bad. 48" range. Guide them and light up that bardge or transport with av13. A guided missle hits 75% ( Guided BS3), it penns AV13 on 1/6. So 12.5% for a penn. 6 Shots is a 75% chance for a penn from the walkers. If my math is right. Thats not even counting the glancing hits that would ensue from such shots.

Just thought of Jink saves from the skimmers. That hurts a little. Just make sure you focus fire and prioritize targets. Necrons are bane of just about every race this edition. They are just a very powerful all around team. So dont worry to much. Plan your list to be able to take on alot of enemies, you arent going to be playing crons every single game.