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In 5th edition, you didn't see many people taking heavy bolters as upgrades to their tactical and / or devastator squads. But now in 6th you can move and shoot snap shots with your heavy bolter and you can use it for overwatch to protect against charges.

So let's discuss ; Why didn't we see many heavy bolters in 5th ed, and will we see more of them in 6th?

for IG players anyway, the HBs for LRBT sponsons are definately becomming more popular in that it's extra shots all around.

For a useful anti-flier varient or just anti-light transport/infantry the exterminator is rather useful. Fitted with sponsons you can dump quite alot into a flier.

Do need 6's to glance but might be enough to strip enough HP's away.

Personally though, I think flamers are the biggest bang for the buck now a days what with we're expecting to see alot more dismounted infantry now a days

Sisters of Battle also use Heavy Bolter's now particularly on their heavy support squads since (if they pass faith tests) they rend a 6 anyway.

even in 5th one of the guys i play with took one squad of heavy bolter long fangs. 5 heavy bolters in one unit is alot of hurt

That's what I thought. Because what kroot/ork/etc. unit is going to want to charge a full unit or SM Devastators that would get 12 S5 shots and 10 S4 shots when being charged.

G00fySmiley wrote:even in 5th one of the guys i play with took one squad of heavy bolter long fangs. 5 heavy bolters in one unit is alot of hurt

I was thinking about doing this with my long fangs too. Then I'll attach a Divination Rune Priest and use the primaris power to re-roll to hit.

The thing that's really nice I think is that you can move them and still shoot snap shots. And who wants to charge them when you're looking at 15 S5 AP4 overwatch shots?

EDIT : And as a bonus, the heavy bolters are dirt cheap at 5 points a pop.

Especially if you can sit them on the Mysterious Objective that give unts within 3" the Skyfire special rule.

15 S5 Shots that hit at normal BS? Decent chance of wreckgin a flyer methinks.

Praxiss wrote:Especially if you can sit them on the Mysterious Objective that give unts within 3" the Skyfire special rule.

15 S5 Shots that hit at normal BS? Decent chance of wreckgin a flyer methinks.

Good point! And SW's are otherwise lacking in reliable anti-aircraft.

I am definitely putting HB's on my LRBT sponsons, that way i can move and shoot both my battle cannon and lascannon at BS and then snap fire the HB's averaging 1 hit per turn so usually a kill per turn(on infantry), and at 20 points it gives the LRBT 2 extra weapons that keep it doing something if it gets a weapon destroyed result, rather than just being a very expensive lascannon(which has happenend to me all to many times...)

People didn't take heavy bolters because of cover, mostly, not lack of snap fire. Now that cover is worse, more difficult to get, and is focus fireable around, heavy bolters are certainly going to be more useful.

We're not going to see an explosion of them, though, as mech lists got stronger relative to foot lists in this edition (yes, even with hull points for transports), and heavy bolters are still only a nuisance weapon against rhinos and the like.

They're definitely back on the menu.

Transport spam is going to be far less prominent. Even if someone is still doing it, mass heavy bolter fire ruins Marine and DE transports.

Move and fire 3 shots at BS 1 is much more appealing than move and fire one shot at BS1 for Tactical squads. Speaking of Tac Squads, since they've returned to a useful role (they can now kill things while moving to objectives and not everything always has a 4+ cover save anymore), it brings the heavy bolter up with them.

I used alot of heavy botlers because of there AP3 because my usual opponants were space marines, but yes, i agree, they will be more present in 6th because of the new move + shot rules

Ailaros wrote:mech lists got stronger relative to foot lists in this edition

I'm not convinced that is accurate.

Foot lists relied heavily on cover, which now just got much worse. Meanwhile, vehicles just got much easier access to cover than they had before. Transports may have been made weaker with hull points, but they are now relatively more durable than foot lists.

Meanwhile, mech lists are still cheaper, and faster to play, and still dovetail best with the way tournaments alter 40k. As go tournament lists, as go the masses. Mech lists may be glassier hammers, but they're still the best hammer, especially since assault-oriented armies just got hosed.

Then add to that the specifics of certain popular foot lists. Power blobs are dead now, and so are green tides. Anyone trying to make footdar work is in for a rude surprise now that Ap matters again.

Assault got worse, and popular foot lists are now non-viable. Meanwhile, mech lists only got a bit more fragile while also being a bit more killy, while not actually needing to make any substantial changes in the way they're built or played.

6th ed is going to be mechier than 5th.

How exactly is green tide dead?

Most of the ork threads on the board are leaning towards green tide lists atm.

Ailaros wrote:Foot lists relied heavily on cover, which now just got much worse. Meanwhile, vehicles just got much easier access to cover than they had before. Transports may have been made weaker with hull points, but they are now relatively more durable than foot lists.

Meanwhile, mech lists are still cheaper, and faster to play, and still dovetail best with the way tournaments alter 40k. As go tournament lists, as go the masses. Mech lists may be glassier hammers, but they're still the best hammer, especially since assault-oriented armies just got hosed.

Then add to that the specifics of certain popular foot lists. Power blobs are dead now, and so are green tides. Anyone trying to make footdar work is in for a rude surprise now that Ap matters again.

Assault got worse, and popular foot lists are now non-viable. Meanwhile, mech lists only got a bit more fragile while also being a bit more killy, while not actually needing to make any substantial changes in the way they're built or played.

6th ed is going to be mechier than 5th.

Interesting analysis. One I only partially agree with, but one that should be closely analyzed.

For a more assault based army, this is more accurate. For a shooty army, less so.

Start a thread in tactics. It should be a good one...

Hetelic wrote:How exactly is green tide dead?

I suppose I should qualify that. SLUGGA green tides are dead. Fleet no longer allowing you to assault, random assault ranges, no hidden klaw, better rapid fire, no +I from furious charge, and overwatch all ultra-bone slugga lists.

Shootas have their own problems, though, and they also got worse with the new wound allocation allowing your opponent to more easily shoot you out of range. Plus, ork armies generally fare poorly when they don't have the initiative, which is something shoota lists always struggled with. Ork just don't do gunline as well as a lot of other armies, especially now that lootas just lost a point of cover save.

imweasel wrote:Start a thread in tactics. It should be a good one...

done.

HBs are also AP4, not AP3, just to cover that mistake above. But they do look to be worth their points again!!

Ailaros wrote:

Hetelic wrote:How exactly is green tide dead?

I suppose I should qualify that. SLUGGA green tides are dead. Fleet no longer allowing you to assault, random assault ranges, no hidden klaw, better rapid fire, no +I from furious charge, and overwatch all ultra-bone slugga lists.

Shootas have their own problems, though, and they also got worse with the new wound allocation allowing your opponent to more easily shoot you out of range. Plus, ork armies generally fare poorly when they don't have the initiative, which is something shoota lists always struggled with. Ork just don't do gunline as well as a lot of other armies, especially now that lootas just lost a point of cover save.

lost a point of cover btu gained an invaluble strategy

lootas now go in an open topped battlewagon with max numbers and a few mek boyz to repair it. 12 lootaz plus 3 meks in a open topped BW with 2 big shootas and a kannon.. nobody will want to get near it they will be overwatched if they try and assault the bw and av14 up front means hard to even glance

as far as green tide i'd argue it is stronger than ever. still best with shoota boys as you shoot in then charge but most armies even with overatch don't put out the same volume of fire as an ork. general.. what MEQ player in thier right mindwants to charge 30 shoota boyz that get 60 overwatch shots in.. in the grand sceme it is 10 hits on meq 5 wounds . 4 1/3 saves so likely to mareines down before they get in combat .. still the right decition as otherwise the orks get 3.3 dead meq befoe the charfge if they shoot but its not a fun decition to make.

Ailaros wrote:

Hetelic wrote:How exactly is green tide dead?

I suppose I should qualify that. SLUGGA green tides are dead. Fleet no longer allowing you to assault, random assault ranges, no hidden klaw, better rapid fire, no +I from furious charge, and overwatch all ultra-bone slugga lists.

Shootas have their own problems, though, and they also got worse with the new wound allocation allowing your opponent to more easily shoot you out of range. Plus, ork armies generally fare poorly when they don't have the initiative, which is something shoota lists always struggled with. Ork just don't do gunline as well as a lot of other armies, especially now that lootas just lost a point of cover save.

Perhaps =) I see your points, but i still think people will field slugga-tide in the end. A squad of 30 orks, doing 120s4 attacks on the charge is a bit mean, and the removal of fearless wounds really boosts the survivabilty of the unit. What i think you'll see less of is trukk-sluggas; with only 12 models in the unit they are a bit more vulnerable.

Ailaros is dead on. Ork foot horde just got alot more vulnerable to shooting due to worse cover, random charges and overwatch. Snap shooting doesn't do it any favors, either, as HW types can reposition and still fire. Likewise, foot guard really struggle now that you can snipe out key models (no sniper needed, just smart direction of fire and artillery LOL wrecks them), Temies ignore AP3, etc.

HPs didn't really hurt Russes, especially with squadrons and HPs also means it is not possible to just stun lock most vehicles. Transports are still cheap, fast and offer better protection than just waiting to catch shots to the face as you plod toward an objective.

HB's in 5E weren't popular for many reasons. In many cases, they were overcosted (such as in the Imperial Guard). Also, due to the "defensive weapon" rules, they often weren't of much use if other weapons options existed (e.g. lascannons for predators, hull heavy flamers for IG tanks, etc).

Very easily obtained 4+ cover also really made HB's rather ineffective at killing horde infantry, on average you'd need 2 BS3 heavy bolters to kill a single Ork in cover.

Numbers of enemy infantry also increased over time. Costs for weeny infantry decreased noticeably from the start of 3E into 5E, while the heavy bolter remained largely the same. So numbers of heavy bolters didn't change, but they became less effective at killing while having to simultaneously deal with larger numbers of infantry they needed to kill, where an RoF boost to 4 wouldn't be out of the question.



6E rectifies a couple of these things by making them useable on moving vehicles (even if minimally, it's still something), and reduces most cover to 5+ which means infantry are more vulnerable to heavy bolter fire.

That said, they still do remain overcosted in many armies, and still could use an RoF boost. If Heavy Bolters were 4 shots, you'd see them a whole lot more.

jmurph wrote:Ailaros is dead on. Ork foot horde just got alot more vulnerable to shooting due to worse cover, random charges and overwatch. Snap shooting doesn't do it any favors, either, as HW types can reposition and still fire. Likewise, foot guard really struggle now that you can snipe out key models (no sniper needed, just smart direction of fire and artillery LOL wrecks them), Temies ignore AP3, etc.

HPs didn't really hurt Russes, especially with squadrons and HPs also means it is not possible to just stun lock most vehicles. Transports are still cheap, fast and offer better protection than just waiting to catch shots to the face as you plod toward an objective.

Again, i disagree to an extent. Overwatch is a big elephant in the room. I really don't think it's going to be overly effective. It has -potential- to do a lot of damage, but it'll more than likely result in 1 or 2 dead orks each charge. Not a huge loss to the boyz.

Snapfire, on the otherhand is a -boost- to Orks. Orks were designed with a low bs, and given plenty of shooting to compensate. Loota's do d3 str 7 shots at bs 2 normally. If they move, their only dropping 1 bs. Snapfire on orks will reduce the hits by 50%, with it being as high as 75% for Marines.

Random charge is a bit meh, but as a former fantasy player, im more used to it. The average roll on 2 die is 7 anyways, and Gazzy gives a standard 6 for 1 die, and fleet; allowing you to reroll the other charge die. that gives you a range of 6"+d6 rerollable, which is not outrageously bad.

The worse cover point is true; however, we can't expect everything to go in our favour. Fearless and 30 boy mobs will still make it to the enemy, and a big mek with KFF at least makes that 5+ cover mobile =)

Heavy bolters are making a comeback because of the demeching of everything and the possibility to move and fire.

They are also pontentially becomiung more popular as 4+ cover is going away. Geq in 4+ cover isnt really worth your heavy bolter.

G00fySmiley wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Hetelic wrote:How exactly is green tide dead?

I suppose I should qualify that. SLUGGA green tides are dead. Fleet no longer allowing you to assault, random assault ranges, no hidden klaw, better rapid fire, no +I from furious charge, and overwatch all ultra-bone slugga lists.

Shootas have their own problems, though, and they also got worse with the new wound allocation allowing your opponent to more easily shoot you out of range. Plus, ork armies generally fare poorly when they don't have the initiative, which is something shoota lists always struggled with. Ork just don't do gunline as well as a lot of other armies, especially now that lootas just lost a point of cover save.

lost a point of cover btu gained an invaluble strategy

lootas now go in an open topped battlewagon with max numbers and a few mek boyz to repair it. 12 lootaz plus 3 meks in a open topped BW with 2 big shootas and a kannon.. nobody will want to get near it they will be overwatched if they try and assault the bw and av14 up front means hard to even glance

as far as green tide i'd argue it is stronger than ever. still best with shoota boys as you shoot in then charge but most armies even with overatch don't put out the same volume of fire as an ork. general.. what MEQ player in thier right mindwants to charge 30 shoota boyz that get 60 overwatch shots in.. in the grand sceme it is 10 hits on meq 5 wounds . 4 1/3 saves so likely to mareines down before they get in combat .. still the right decition as otherwise the orks get 3.3 dead meq befoe the charfge if they shoot but its not a fun decition to make.

Not to mention the absolute disaster that is charging Burna Boyz.

YELLOWBLADES wrote:I used alot of heavy botlers because of there AP3 because my usual opponants were space marines, but yes, i agree, they will be more present in 6th because of the new move + shot rules

Ummm, reread your codex dude. HBs are AP... well, I won't spoil it for you.

YELLOWBLADES wrote:I used alot of heavy botlers because of there AP3 because my usual opponants were space marines, but yes, i agree, they will be more present in 6th because of the new move + shot rules

If heavy bolters were AP3, everyone would have already been taking them!

Hetelic wrote:How exactly is green tide dead?

Most of the ork threads on the board are leaning towards green tide lists atm.

Overwatch is making it slightly harder for them.

I love heavy bolters. They might not be a marine killer but I still used them against them. They can cause a lot of wounds to save! I don't use any templates so they help a lot against horde armies.

Hetelic wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Hetelic wrote:How exactly is green tide dead?

I suppose I should qualify that. SLUGGA green tides are dead. Fleet no longer allowing you to assault, random assault ranges, no hidden klaw, better rapid fire, no +I from furious charge, and overwatch all ultra-bone slugga lists.

Shootas have their own problems, though, and they also got worse with the new wound allocation allowing your opponent to more easily shoot you out of range. Plus, ork armies generally fare poorly when they don't have the initiative, which is something shoota lists always struggled with. Ork just don't do gunline as well as a lot of other armies, especially now that lootas just lost a point of cover save.

Perhaps =) I see your points, but i still think people will field slugga-tide in the end. A squad of 30 orks, doing 120s4 attacks on the charge is a bit mean, and the removal of fearless wounds really boosts the survivabilty of the unit. What i think you'll see less of is trukk-sluggas; with only 12 models in the unit they are a bit more vulnerable.

120 S 4 attacks would be a bit mean, yes, but realistically you'll get half of that, if that, due to having to footslog through incoming, getting snapshot as you close (a few at least), models being outside of the 'engagement zone' and thus unable to fight, then add in the inevitable casualties you suffer before you get to swing at I 2...

I don't think i've EVER had all 30 boyz able to combat the same unit and get all their attacks in, certainly not in the last 2 editions..