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basicly what is your opinion on alpharius omegon, is he a loyalist.

No. A Loyalist accepts the Emperor's agenda as a matter of principle (that is, even if he does not understand it). Rogal Dorn is the model loyalist. Alpharius decided to pursue his own agenda. His reasons are immaterial.

Well after reading Legion, you would have to say they are 'loyal' to the bigger picture, in terms of humanity and the fate of the galaxy, but certainly not loyal to the Emperor in the traditional sense.

Manchu wrote:No. A Loyalist accepts the Emperor's agenda as a matter of principle (that is, even if he does not understand it). Rogal Dorn is the model loyalist. Alpharius decided to pursue his own agenda. His reasons are immaterial.

I agree, and I must say Manchu I love your hardline view of loyalty, no questions, no exceptions, you either accept the Emperor as the master of mankind and acknowledge that he knows best, or you are a traitor. Black and White.

+++ THOUGHT FOR THE DAY: THERE IS ONLY THE LIGHT OF THE EMPEROR -- ALL ELSE IS DARKNESS +++

I see what you mean, but if ever the 40k fluff was to progress (which it wont) i think that corax and alpharius will have huge parts to play in whatever happens.

I believe they thought they were being loyal to humanity, but through their actions, they damned themselves.

I mean, i ought to know, I am Alpharius after all.

Just typing a load of random junk here to avoid spoilers for people who hover the mouse over the thread, but...

... Some of the more recent fluff has been giving me - amongst others - the impression that the Alpha Legion is split between loyalist and traitor, with one Primarch being loyal and one traitor.
I would quite like this direction with the Legion to be honest, it always surprised me A) how much Alpharius and Omegon agreed on things & thought so alike, when all their brothers are at each others throats etc. and B) that Alpharius seems like the overall head honcho, despite them being twins. If this direction is taken, it could also explain inconsistencies with the portrayal of the modern Alpha Legion.

They're two different "primarchs". I believe one of them is loyal and one is chaos. But we'll never find out because gw is a setting

Brother Thomas wrote:They're two different "primarchs". I believe one of them is loyal and one is chaos. But we'll never find out because gw is a setting

Horus Heresy series isn't the setting, but the past and so is being expanded upon and may reveal the 'truth'.

Oh, and GW isn't a setting, but a company. And why Primarchs in quotes?

YELLOWBLADES wrote:I see what you mean, but if ever the 40k fluff was to progress (which it wont) i think that corax and alpharius will have huge parts to play in whatever happens.

TBH Corax's actions seem rather odd, which make me think that he may have gone traitor. I mean he turned his legion into a bunch of monsters and left for the eye of terror. To me that screams traitor.

The revelation over the monsters wasn't new, was it? Raven Guard have always had that skeleton in the closet.

Buttons wrote:

YELLOWBLADES wrote:I see what you mean, but if ever the 40k fluff was to progress (which it wont) i think that corax and alpharius will have huge parts to play in whatever happens.

TBH Corax's actions seem rather odd, which make me think that he may have gone traitor. I mean he turned his legion into a bunch of monsters and left for the eye of terror. To me that screams traitor.

Khan, Russ and possibly Vulkan all left in similar manners.
Also, Corax's creation of mutated legionnaires/monsters wasn't intentional or motivated for traitorous reasons.

Corax was fiercely loyal to the Emperor and still tried to fight despite the near-destruction of his Legion. I see no reason to believe he's a traitor, personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:The revelation over the monsters wasn't new, was it? Raven Guard have always had that skeleton in the closet.

No, it's long since been their Corax's schtick from the Heresy.

But Deliverance Lost:

Among all the Primarchs, only two or three seem to have any understanding of humility and compassion -- and one of them is Corax. How anyone would see him as an obvious traitor is beyond me.

Agreed. The guy's still my favourite Primarch.


I must say though, considering the way they were designed, raised and the roles they fulfilled, I think a Primarch's typical lack of social skills is pretty understandable.

Haha! Another thread linking back to Deliverance Lost, how could I resist...!

Just Dave wrote:I must say though, considering the way they were designed, raised and the roles they fulfilled, I think a Primarch's typical lack of social skills is pretty understandable.

Just another reason why Vulkan, Sanguinius, and Corax (and possibly Guilliman) are awesome.

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I must say though, considering the way they were designed, raised and the roles they fulfilled, I think a Primarch's typical lack of social skills is pretty understandable.

Just another reason why Vulkan, Sanguinius, and Corax (and possibly Guilliman) are awesome.

Again, agreed.
And Curze is even more of a nutter.

kitch102 wrote:Haha! Another thread linking back to Deliverance Lost, how could I resist...!

Spoiler:

The Alpha Legion have their own agenda; they're loyal to humanity, not the Emperor, and have joined with Horus to ensure that the heresy goes "as it needs to" according to some mysterious spectral type beings known only as the cabal.

I'm under the impression that they loathe their turncoat brothers, though Alpharius needs to ensure that ... destiny [question]... plays out as it should, at which point the rebellion would tear itself apart as the traitor primarchs would each turn on the other trying to wrench control of the galaxy from Horus.

Or maybe one is loyal to humanity/Cabal and the other is Chaos?
Or maybe one is loyal to humanity/Cabal and the other to the Imperium?
Or the one loyal to humanity/Cabal realised he failed and went to Chaos?
Or the one loyal to humanity/Cabal accidentally went to Chaos?
Or maybe Guilliman killed one.
Or...

There's a lot still up in the air, but the HH seems to be implying a split between the twins/Legion IMHO...

He may have started with loyal intentions - to help fulfil the emperors goal of eliminating chaos, no matter the cost, but now? After 10,000 years in the warp, that goal is probably lost in the mists of time.

At this point in time the answer is both simple and obvious: We don't know.

That's just what thy alpha legion want you to think

Answer: Who the hell know's if he's still alive? And where is Omegon-dude?Propably infiltrating his own bases....

I am Alpharius...

IIRC then Alpharius is a Loyalist....He was contacted by the Cabal 2 years before the HH and they said that

If the Emperor wins, humanity will decay for a few generations before being devoured by Chaos


If Horus wins he will become guilty for killing the Big E and destroys Chaos, with Humanity eliminated in the process

Manchu wrote:No. A Loyalist accepts the Emperor's agenda as a matter of principle (that is, even if he does not understand it). Rogal Dorn is the model loyalist. Alpharius decided to pursue his own agenda. His reasons are immaterial.

But Legion would suggest that Alpharius believed he was pursuing the Emperor's agenda by turning on him. Just as Lorgar thought he was pursuing the Emperor's agenda by worshipping him and Magnus thought he was pursuing the Emperor's agenda by disobeying him.

The Emperor appears to have provided little direct guidance to the primarchs, instead giving them free rein to prosecute the Crusade as they saw fit, only stepping in to render judgement in a handful of instances (i.e., Monarchia, Nikea). The primarchs were expected to act in the best interest of the Imperium based on their own judgement, only discovering whether their efforts were acceptable to the Emperor after the fact. There's a fine line between showing initiative (which would be expected) and disobedience. In particular Guilliman's actions certainly seem to straddle this line. Did the Emperor tell Guilliman to break up the legions and reorganize the Imperium? Clearly not or the Emperor would have done it himself. Does this make Guilliman a traitor? Only the Emperor would be able to decide that.

But back to Alpharius. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out. If one twin falls to Chaos and the other remains "loyal" we could end up with the Chaos twin working to defeat Horus while the "loyal" one tries to defeat the Emperor.

This also raises interesting possibilities for the battle on Eskrador. Who provided the Ultramarines with the location of the Alpha Legion command? An elaborate coup perhaps? One twin using Guilliman to kill the other? If anyone could be expected to understand the motivation of the "loyal" traitor it would be Mr. Imperium Secundus himself - he's not Russ afterall.

Black Library should pursue this in a Space Marine Battles book. I can imagine the pivotal scene now...

ALPHARIUS (OMEGON?): Guilliman, kill him he's the traitor Alpharius!
OMEGON (ALPHARIUS?): No kill him! He's the real Alpharius!
GUILLIMAN: It's like I'm seeing double!

(Guillman then proceeds to kill the wrong twin.)

Cynical_SpaceMarine wrote:IIRC then Alpharius is a Loyalist....He was contacted by the Cabal 2 years before the HH and they said that

If the Emperor wins, humanity will decay for a few generations before being devoured by Chaos

If Horus wins he will become guilty for killing the Big E and destroys Chaos, with Humanity eliminated in the process

I find it very odd that, whenever this question comes up, nobody ever takes either the Cabal's motivations, or Alpharius' at anything other than face value. The 'truth' could as easily turn out to be that the Cabal were either deceived or corrupted by Chaos, or that Alpharius was simply stringing them along for his own (as-yet unknown) reasons.

Whatever Alpharius's original motivations were in following a bunch of totaly unknown alien psykers (Tzeentch says hello), his legion is now firmly within the camp of chaos.

This topic has been done to death, really needs to be sticky'd.

In any regard, no I don't think he is/was. Rather he began as such but has since fallen to Chaos himself, who knows at what point. Alpha Legion does too many depraved and unnecessary things for them to be doing it for the sake of the Imperium. What was the point of wiping out the Crimson Consuls again?

Not to mention Alpha Legion has been involved in summoning Daemons and produced a number of Daemon princes. You can't fake the kind of devotion to the Gods of Chaos that gives you Daemonhood. The legion is damned.

That stuff was post Heresy though, when the Primarchs were no longer around. So those acts would have been carried out by the legions leaders that were either misinterpreting their Primarchs goals (Alpharius and Omegon nevershared their whole plans with their marines, allowing for misinterpretation) or their own personal goals

Omegon



or not