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The reduction in durability of large, lightly armored infantry and the vulnerability of squad leaders has narrowed the options of blobs compared to their use in 5th. One cannot expect a 20 or 30 man blob to rush headlong across the board to try and claim an objective deeper in enemy territory. The durability just isn't there on most tables. As a consequence, I've been trying to look at other options. One possibility is Penal Legion, but despite being a cheap way to get Outflanking, there's really almost no durability there, and not a lot of killing power.

One option I've been playing around with in my head is a squad of Veterans jumping from a Vendetta/Valkryrie to contest and possibly claim rear objectives. The squad would focus more on durability and defense than killing power. Hopefully relying on long range firepower to weaken objective campers before moving in to finish them off.

The squad I propose:

Veteran Squad
Grenadiers
3x Flamers
Shotguns
Possibly a Power Weapon/Fist on the Sgt.

This squad ends up being 115-130 points depending on the close combat weapon chosen.

The idea is that the Vendetta flies in via outflanking and drops the Veterans, targeting a relatively safe spot on the board, there's no need to go for heroics and use the flamers on the drop turn. The goal is to put them in a position to take an objective on turn 4 or 5, without having to hoof it or ride in a Chimera to get there. The carapace armor allows them a save outside of cover, while the flamers make them harder to assault (and let them put some wounds on objective campers). They're still Guard, so they're not going to kick any asses back there but they should be durable enough that they require an effort to deal with. The cheaper alternative for this sort of mission would be a SWS or PCS, but I don't think they have the durability to stand up to the modest amount of counterattack that objective campers can muster.

Any thoughts?

The only thing to keep in mind is that you have to Zoom on the board on turn 2. That gives your opponent a full shooting phase to down your Vendetta. If it crashes you can pretty much kiss everyone on the transport goodbye.

The first game of 6th I dropped a squadron of 3 on the second turn before they could disembark anyone. It was close to 1/2 his army and almost all of his scoring units.

Why use flamers? You waste the supperior BS of the veterans by giving them template weapons. Since you want the better armor why not take plasma guns and just bunker down somewhere once they are out. There are very few things that can survive a couple of rounds of shooting from those.

Yes you have to risk entering in a dangerous way with the flyer but something like a vendetta will be able to shoot down any mech and with decent target priority you can silence any AA guns so all your opponent can do is snap fire and it won't be easy to take down an armor 12 flyer when you already need 6s to hit. A power axe would be nice on the sgt, but lets face it you aren't going to kill a lot in CC with vets.

It seems like a reasonable unit for clearing off an objective with a minimum of fuss. The only problem I see is keeping them alive for the 1 or 2 turns before they hit the objective. I'd recommend pairing them with a squad with Forward sentries, lasguns, and 3 snipers. If the objective is open, the second squad can run up and camp, with at worst a 5+ cover save from going to ground, if it's contested, the second squad can move and fire it's weapons, and the first can move, fire, and assault. If you've got an objective in your deployment zone, the sentries could also take the second squad out of their Vendetta and deploy them normally.

Akroma06 wrote:Why use flamers? You waste the supperior BS of the veterans by giving them template weapons. Since you want the better armor why not take plasma guns and just bunker down somewhere once they are out. There are very few things that can survive a couple of rounds of shooting from those.

Yes you have to risk entering in a dangerous way with the flyer but something like a vendetta will be able to shoot down any mech and with decent target priority you can silence any AA guns so all your opponent can do is snap fire and it won't be easy to take down an armor 12 flyer when you already need 6s to hit. A power axe would be nice on the sgt, but lets face it you aren't going to kill a lot in CC with vets.

I would say keep the flamers. Wall of Death is great for defensive units that you know are going to get charged and good for getting rid of coversaves on entrenched units.

As for AA, not all of it is mech. Some of it you can't even kill if you have good targeting priority. The TK power OM has a 24" range and does not need LoS and is a Haywire attack. Unless you have a psyker on board you only get a 6+ DtW and I just need to roll 2+ to glance. 3 OMs will generally kill a Valk (or if they are in a squadron the entire squadron.)

Flamers are good against other GEQ or xeno armies, but most marine armies will laugh them off. On average you get 6 flamer hits as a part of overwatch. 3 wound and you kill one marine. As opposed to several turns of plasma death.

As far as survivability goes for the vendetta...of course it isn't guaranteed nothing is. I haven't really gone over much of the psychic stuff (BT and DE played thus far in 6th with plans for IG) yet but is the power a base power or do you have to roll it up? Then what is the range? I thought if shot at a flyer without skyfire you had to snap fire and couldn't hit it then? Either way IG IMO have never really lacked much in the anti-infantry dept and psykers and terminators now would be pretty high up on the ol target priority list so cancelling him out before dropping in the vets seems to be a good counter.

Gloomfang: You can Deep Strike out of the Vendetta, which I think you can do while zooming (if I'm wrong, this changes things a bit).

Akroma06: The flamers are there because they're cheap and assault weapons, allowing the squad to more capably storm an objective. They do the same defensive damage vs. MEQs as a trio of plasma guns, but don't average an overheat in the process. I'm open to the idea of plasma, I just think it changes the squad a bit from my intentions. It also adds 30 points to a squad that isn't cheap in the first place. I'll probably try both.

What you need is a Hades Breaching Drill. Or 3. Ally in an Eldar Autarch to suppress your reserves and you've got a 25% chance of the drill coming in on Turn 4, with the Vets following it in on Turn 5. That's all contingent on someone letting you use an IA unit.

Can't codex-guard deep strike their Vendettas and Valks?
Or is it just Elysians?

Biophysical wrote:Gloomfang: You can Deep Strike out of the Vendetta, which I think you can do while zooming (if I'm wrong, this changes things a bit).

Akroma06: The flamers are there because they're cheap and assault weapons, allowing the squad to more capably storm an objective. They do the same defensive damage vs. MEQs as a trio of plasma guns, but don't average an overheat in the process. I'm open to the idea of plasma, I just think it changes the squad a bit from my intentions. It also adds 30 points to a squad that isn't cheap in the first place. I'll probably try both.

You have to go Flat Out in order to use Grav Chute Insertion, which limits the firepower on the Vendetta.

Personally, I've taken to putting naked Infantry Squads in them for late game objective capturing. The flyers are so durable that they generally survive for at least 4 turns. Rather than fly off the board, I will usually switch to hover mode in order to get the guys out and to reposition myself for more zooming next turn. This has the added benefit of drawing weapons fire away from my infantry (as my opponent will usually seize the opportunity to shoot my flyers at normal ballistic skill).

Biophysical wrote:Gloomfang: You can Deep Strike out of the Vendetta, which I think you can do while zooming (if I'm wrong, this changes things a bit).

As far as I know the only thing that can deepstrike while Zooming is BA due to Skys of Blood and Necrons with Invasion Beam. I may be wrong though. All other flyers have to be Hovering to drop off troops unless Vets have some special rule I don't know about. Flyers are still real new.

Akroma06: OM is a TK power. It is rolled for randomly. It is a Maladiction and not a Witchfire so it is not a shooting attack so Snapfire does not apply. It can affect any unit within 24" of the psyker and if it goes off the unit must re-roll all 6's to hit. If the target is a vehicle it also takes a Haywire hit. If the target unit is a squadron each vehicle in the squadron takes a Haywire hit.

If you want to know the odds of facing it. With a lvl1 psyker it is a 1/5 chance to get the power (Void is rerolled as it is WC2).

For Nids specificly: Everyone but the Swarmlord is lvl 1. Almost all of them have between 2-3 powers. Standard non-psyker spam list has 6-7 Psykers with between 12-15 power slots. If they all spam TK the army will get it 2-3 times.

As for weapon loadout, it doesn't make much of a difference for holding objectives. I would take the best weapons for vets, rather than the best for holding objectives.

As for vendettas, I don't really see the bother. Yes, they're harder to kill, but their maneuverability is also greatly reduced (which is important if there's a specific objective you're looking to take). Furthermore, when your vendetta IS involved in a firey crash, it dooms the passengers to much more certain death than if they're in a chimera that is wrecked.

If you want vets for objective holders, putting them in a chimera is still the most efficient way to go. If you're really that concerned about their survival, consider camo cloaks for the chimeras, or for the vets, or carapace armor for the latter.

Or just keep using them like you were before. They're less durable, but they're more killy (which, I'd note, helps their durability).

TheCaptain wrote:Can't codex-guard deep strike their Vendettas and Valks?
Or is it just Elysians?

Codex Guard can Deep Strike their Valks/Vends and the troops within can use Grav Chute Insertion to pseudo-deepstrike out of them so long as they move flat-out. It's a risky set of moves though compared to zooming to the objective, switching to Hover mode, getting the Valk into cover (assuming your table has terrain tall enough to provide some), dropping off the Vets and then resume zooming the next turn.

It depends if you want to keep the Valk alive or it's cargo. It's safer for the Valk to drop troops in with grav chute insertion as it can keep zooming and retain it's status as a flyer and related saves but you run the risk of the entire squad dying because one of them lands in a tree.

EDIT: Also don't forget that Vets can take any of the doctrines not just one of them so if you want as much defence as possible take Grenadiers and Forward Sentries.

actually, a valk makes more sense now, come to think of it. Turn 1 in reserve, turns 2-4 showing up and then flat-outting in such a way where you run off the board at the end of turn 4. Turn 5 you deepstrike the valk onto the objective.

Of course, that's a lot of points you're throwing at something that will be doing very little killing.

A possible alternative squad for the same mission:

Squad, Flamer, Commissar, 2x Power Weapons = 110 points

More vulnerable to shooting with worse firepower, but an extra body, much better leadership, better close combat ability, and a little bit cheaper.

It may be that a 50 Point SWS is the optimum choice, simply because one isn't afraid to lose it., and it still scores.

Yeah, but SWSs are just SO fragile, though. Perhaps the best thing here is to take two SWSs, one with sniper rifles and one with flamers.

90 points for 12 guys (more guys), with more, better shooting (actually, perhaps both with sniper rifles), that comes on two squads (harder to wipe, and harder to get everything into close combat at once).

And cheaper.

Another one to possibly consider is a pair of mortar HWSs now that you can quasi-snipe with barrage weapons.

If you wanted the vets or the infantry platoon, though, I'd make sure to throw krak grenades on there. A reasonably cheap upgrade to help them vs. a lot of targets.

100 points, but yeah. Deepstriking snipers teams is super-stylish, too.

lol. especially since they can snap fire when they arrive.

Hits on a .166, rends/precision shots on a .166, and LoS! of 4+, makes there only a .013 for this to happen, but about once in 25 times that a sniper SWS deepstrikes they are able to score a headshot on someone from midair as they arrive.

...posing heroically.

Ailaros wrote:lol. especially since they can snap fire when they arrive.

Hits on a .166, rends/precision shots on a .166, and LoS! of 4+, makes there only a .013 for this to happen, but about once in 25 times that a sniper SWS deepstrikes they are able to score a headshot on someone from midair as they arrive.

...posing heroically.

Much as I "like" the idea of fielding Call of Duty quickscopers in 40k, Precision Shots don't work while Snap Firing.

If you are taking flamers I say at least take a heavy flamer as well, so 2 flamers and a heavy flamer for 15 points more to offer greater lethality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:

Ailaros wrote:lol. especially since they can snap fire when they arrive.

Hits on a .166, rends/precision shots on a .166, and LoS! of 4+, makes there only a .013 for this to happen, but about once in 25 times that a sniper SWS deepstrikes they are able to score a headshot on someone from midair as they arrive.

...posing heroically.

Much as I "like" the idea of fielding Call of Duty quickscopers in 40k, Precision Shots don't work while Snap Firing.

They don't? Damn.

Nooooo....!!!!



I guess you could still drop them in with flamers. That would be cool.

... I guess...

I actually had success the other night with two penal squads flanking along with a Scout Sentinel squad. Granted I got lucky with my flanking side rolls. One squad alone is a waste, but this combo claimed an objective on the far side of the table. I love Captain Al, but by the time you beef up his squads, add chimeras or Commissars, you're over 400 points, vs 160 for two Penal squads. With only troops out of transports being able to claim objectictives, the Penal Legion's stubborness is very helpful. Of all the new rules, I hate this one the most because everyone knows guardsmen in the open die. I've tried Air Cav with vets in 5th, but they just get swept after they are inevitably assaulted.

Gloomfang wrote:

Biophysical wrote:Gloomfang: You can Deep Strike out of the Vendetta, which I think you can do while zooming (if I'm wrong, this changes things a bit).

As far as I know the only thing that can deepstrike while Zooming is BA due to Skys of Blood and Necrons with Invasion Beam. I may be wrong though. All other flyers have to be Hovering to drop off troops unless Vets have some special rule I don't know about. Flyers are still real new.

I know this remains to be fixed, but I believe that Grav Chute Insertion should have been FAQed to be the same as Skies of Blood (since they were practically the same rule for the same purpose), but this was apparently overlooked. So yes, for now, you have to go Flat Out in the shooting phase to drop them off (seems silly to me, why would you disembark them during the shooting phase?), but I would expect this to be changed.

Yeah, having a chance to look at the rules more closely, it looks like you can't deep strike from the flyer in the same manner II thought you could. Although a FAQ like sverigesson suggests would be ideal, and may let the idea still work. I think the Grenadier Vets do have place, since they have a meaningful save against small arms and some of the lighter template weapons, but I feel pretty confident they'll be Chimera-borne. It just takes too many things going right otherwise. Throw-away SWS or cheap PIS will probably be my unit of choice for fliers.

A little OT, but I realized something yesterday. Camo Cloaks don't give Stealth, they give +1 to cover saves. Defensive Grenades give Stealth to units within 8". Forward Sentries vets get both of these, so if you've got some good cover to hunker down on they are pretty immune to close range shooting. For what that's worth. It might be fun to get power fists and plasma and a bunch of Veteran Squads in an army led by Harker. You just fire away like a good Guardsman, getting great cover saves, winning fire fights, and when the enemy eventually charges your squad, you get the +1 attack and the charging squad doesn't. Granted, you're still Guardsmen, but it might be a pretty cool army.

If I was going to load up infantry into a Vendetta, I would go with the Platoon Infantry Squad with a Flamer for 55 points. You can buy 2 of these for the price of your vet squad. There is no benefit for using vets for that late objective grab as your not maximizing their bs4. You do have to take a Platoon Command Squad but I would just give the PCS 3-4 Meltas and load them in a Chimera. PIS is LD8 and 10 guys. SWS is LD7 and only 6 guys so if you lose 2 you have to take a LD 7 check.

The idea was not to use the carried squad as a last turn objective grabber, but to actually be able to take an objective from a rear-area firepower unit. Guard are bad in CC, but with the right equipment can win against a weakened non-CC specialist unit. I'm not sure that's really practical using a valk right now, though. The 55 man platoon squad is certainly a good random scoring unit in the birds, though.