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I am currently 1/3 of the way through "The Purging of Kadillus" (So far its a great book), and I realize something. This is the first time I have read any fluff where the PDF was competent/succesfull. So far with the help of the Dark Angles they are able to hold back some of the Ork tide. Normally the PDF are killed off as a way to make the threat look greater, or get the Guard/Marines involved. I understand that there are different levels of PDF forces some well equipped and trained. Other not so much. But, with that said, this is the first time I have seen them actually holding the line and being competent in some form. Does anyone else know of any other pieces of fluff like this?

Ultramar maintains a PDF which, under the tutelage of the Ultramarines, is supposedly better than many standing Imperial Guard regiments.

Ultramar Auxilia and Cadian Interior Guard are probably the best. Terran PDF too I imagine, though nothing is known about it.

In the latest Cain book(cant recall a name) They are fighting orks, and the PDF, while taking more casualties then the others. Cain remarks how they are better then other PDF's

IIRC Cadian PDF carry stormtrooper kit and have similar training so id imagine they'd be an amazing defense force.

razor5647 wrote:IIRC Cadian PDF carry stormtrooper kit and have similar training so id imagine they'd be an amazing defense force.

Wait, why do the PDF have the stormtrooper crap, yet their Guardsmen don't?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:In the latest Cain book(cant recall a name) They are fighting orks, and the PDF, while taking more casualties then the others. Cain remarks how they are better then other PDF's

Is that the one where he fights with the Iron fists?

No, ITs the last ditch.

Competent PDF?
Thats extremely rare!
I thought the first rite was ....
Thou must be killed to a man.
Thou is only there a distraction till the Imperial Guard or the Adeptus Astartes arrive to deal with the issue.

Makarov wrote:Wait, why do the PDF have the stormtrooper crap, yet their Guardsmen don't?

I don't think Cadia actually has a "true" PDF - the entire planet is governed directly by the Munitorum and they have the Cadian Interior Guard as a local defence force, but that one is rotating units in and out of the Cadian Shock Troops, so training and equipment levels should be relatively uniform I reckon.

Harriticus wrote:Ultramar Auxilia and Cadian Interior Guard are probably the best. Terran PDF too I imagine, though nothing is known about it.

I'm pretty sure the Interior Guard is not PDF. They're just regular IG regiments stationed on Cadia.

Wait, there are competent PDF (y'know, the kind that doesn't get killed to a man)?

razor5647 wrote:IIRC Cadian PDF carry stormtrooper kit and have similar training so id imagine they'd be an amazing defense force.

They don't. They have the Kasrkin, which are like the Cadian version of storm troopers, but the Interior Guard has regular IG equipment, lasguns and flak armour.

its 40K it varies!!

Some planets will have a competant PDF - it will depend on so many things:

The chance of conflict with others or internally
Resources available
Imperial Governors and his subordiates desires and inclinations
morale and training offered
The status in the society - some will be lauded as defenders of the planet - others as overpaid bullies.

The Guard often see them as part time soliders and beneath contempt.

Interestingly this contempt is reflected in the Cain novels (he himself is guilty of this predujice as a long serving member of the Guard) but its clear from the text (and Amberelys notes) that they can be competant, loyal and decent fighters.

Buttons wrote:

razor5647 wrote:IIRC Cadian PDF carry stormtrooper kit and have similar training so id imagine they'd be an amazing defense force.

They don't. They have the Kasrkin, which are like the Cadian version of storm troopers, but the Interior Guard has regular IG equipment, lasguns and flak armour.

Kasrkin's standard kit is carapace armor and hellguns which is almost the same as kit issued to stormtroopers.

razor5647 wrote:

Buttons wrote:

razor5647 wrote:IIRC Cadian PDF carry stormtrooper kit and have similar training so id imagine they'd be an amazing defense force.

They don't. They have the Kasrkin, which are like the Cadian version of storm troopers, but the Interior Guard has regular IG equipment, lasguns and flak armour.

Kasrkin's standard kit is carapace armor and hellguns which is almost the same as kit issued to stormtroopers.

That us what I said.

"They (the interior guard) don't. They have the Kasrkin, which are like the Cadian version of storm troopers (meaning similar in training and equipment), but the Interior Guard (Cadian PDF) has regular IG equipment, lasguns and flak armour."

So yeah, Cadian forces are organized like this

Kasrkin: Pretty much like Cadian Storm Troopers, dedicated to the defence of Cadia alone, so they don't run around the galaxy like regular Storm Troopers, but stay around Cadia.
Cadian Imperial Guard: Imperial Guard from Cadia, not that hard to grasp.
Cadian Interior Guard: Cadian version of the PDF. IIRC all Cadians go through a lottery type system that decides whether they join the Interior Guard or Imperial Guard (the exception being Karkin), thus the two are pretty much equal in terms of skill, although the IG may be more experienced due to constant combat and better equipped.

Buttons wrote:Kasrkin: Pretty much like Cadian Storm Troopers, dedicated to the defence of Cadia alone, so they don't run around the galaxy like regular Storm Troopers, but stay around Cadia.

Did I miss something? Since when is there a difference between Kasrkin and "Cadian Storm Troopers"? Or rather, I have always been under the impression that there is no such thing as "Cadian Storm Troopers". There is only one Storm Trooper regiment, and that's the Munitorum one. Other regiments across the galaxy have "Grenadier" formations that fulfill a similar role on the battlefield, and the Kasrkin are the Cadian version of this, with training and equipment being on par with the "real" Storm Troopers.

I would expect them to be rotated in and out of Imperial Guard regiments just like any other element of the Interior Guard - else there would be little opportunity for players to actually field the Kasrkin miniatures, would there?

Lynata wrote:

Buttons wrote:Kasrkin: Pretty much like Cadian Storm Troopers, dedicated to the defence of Cadia alone, so they don't run around the galaxy like regular Storm Troopers, but stay around Cadia.

Did I miss something? Since when is there a difference between Kasrkin and "Cadian Storm Troopers"? Or rather, I have always been under the impression that there is no such thing as "Cadian Storm Troopers". There is only one Storm Trooper regiment, and that's the Munitorum one. Other regiments across the galaxy have "Grenadier" formations that fulfill a similar role on the battlefield, and the Kasrkin are the Cadian version of this, with training and equipment being on par with the "real" Storm Troopers.

I would expect them to be rotated in and out of Imperial Guard regiments just like any other element of the Interior Guard - else there would be little opportunity for players to actually field the Kasrkin miniatures, would there?

Well since many IG regiments follow the standard pattern of Cadians, it could be assumed that the Karskin is similarly copied.

The Elysian drop troops serve first in the PDF with little exceptions. Elysia is constantly under attacks from pirates and the like and the PDF there are basically shock troopers, trained to perform quick counter raids and fast attacks through air using compact and lightweight equipment.

The PDF is whatever is able to be raised on that planet.

The bulk of Imperial planets actually are at peace. The PDF only has to worry about controlling pirates and local unrest. Xenos invasions are tales to scare the new recruits.

The quality entirely depends on the Planets ability to arm and train them, and the Governor's motivation to do so.


The PDF on a frontier world that has to deal with Xenos raids(or maybe a native Ork population) is going to be much better then one on a planet that hasn't seen anything more exciting then a trade ship in the last several thousand years.

Lynata wrote:

Buttons wrote:Kasrkin: Pretty much like Cadian Storm Troopers, dedicated to the defence of Cadia alone, so they don't run around the galaxy like regular Storm Troopers, but stay around Cadia.

Did I miss something? Since when is there a difference between Kasrkin and "Cadian Storm Troopers"? Or rather, I have always been under the impression that there is no such thing as "Cadian Storm Troopers". There is only one Storm Trooper regiment, and that's the Munitorum one. Other regiments across the galaxy have "Grenadier" formations that fulfill a similar role on the battlefield, and the Kasrkin are the Cadian version of this, with training and equipment being on par with the "real" Storm Troopers.

I would expect them to be rotated in and out of Imperial Guard regiments just like any other element of the Interior Guard - else there would be little opportunity for players to actually field the Kasrkin miniatures, would there?

Well, while they are "dedicated to the defence of Cadia while Storm Troopers are dedicated to the defence of the entire Imperium" (saw it somewhere, too lazy to look it up) "dedicated to the defence of Cadia" is a vague term. It could mean sitting around on Cadia waiting for someone to attack, or joining any Imperial Guard regiments in the entire segmentum or possibly Imperium as long as the objective ensures the safety of Cadia. Of course since I am too lazy to cite the source it could be unreliable and Kasrkin could just be Cadian grenadiers. Either way they are better trained and equipped than regular Cadians.

IT has to do with the overall story the author is trying to write.

Is it a story where the Imperial Guard is the Heroes? Then the PDF die to the man due to their incompetence.

Is it a story where the Space Marines are the Heroes? Then the PDF die to the man followed by the Imperial Guard dying to the man, which then 5 Marines will come in and kill 500,000,000,000 enemies with no causalities (if its a really bad story that is.)

In the fluff, the majority of Planets are peaceful and any problems the PDF can handle, if they can't it gets bumped up to the IG, who then either win, or send in more Troops. Marines fight in maybe .5% of battles. The rest is handled by the Navy and the IG.

Buttons wrote:Well, while they are "dedicated to the defence of Cadia while Storm Troopers are dedicated to the defence of the entire Imperium" (saw it somewhere, too lazy to look it up) "dedicated to the defence of Cadia" is a vague term. It could mean sitting around on Cadia waiting for someone to attack, or joining any Imperial Guard regiments in the entire segmentum or possibly Imperium as long as the objective ensures the safety of Cadia.

Or even just meaning that they care a lot for their homeworld and would gladly lay down their lives for it. In a way, I think each and every Cadian Guardsman is "dedicated to the defence of Cadia", but that doesn't mean that they won't be deployed elsewhere.

Maybe you picked it up from Lexicanum, where some author crafted this interpretation from a snippet contained here as well as Codex: Eye of Terror. I don't know any other source mentioning a "level of dedication", though of course I am far from all-knowing and might have simply missed something (hence me being puzzled). Either way, both sources do not distinguish in deployment, and I think fluff limiting Kasrkin miniatures to a single world would basically be GW shooting itself in the foot, and for the Cadian Shock Troops I am also unaware of any other miniature to be used as Grenadiers.
Perhaps someone better versed in IG fluff than me can throw in some GW source where the off-world use of Cadian "Storm Troopers" / Kasrkin is mentioned just so we can be safe regarding the studio's stance on this. I'm interested in this myself, now!

I tried finding something in the books I have, but unfortunately they rarely talk of the Cadian Shock Troops in greater detail (identifying individual units). Whilst doing so, however (just to bridge the discussion back to the original topic), I also found the PDF of the planet Vogen being mentioned in the Codex Cityfight. Granted, half the PDF turned traitor and joined Chaos, but the other half kept fighting on the Imperium's side and played an important role in re-capturing the planet in conjunction with off-world forces. The book also mentions the remainder of the local Adeptus Arbites precinct leading the final charge against the toppled governor's palace.

Buttons wrote:Either way they are better trained and equipped than regular Cadians.

That much is certain, aye.

I thought the problem with having competent PDF was the emperor's levy, IE the guard conscript requirements inherently taking away the best troops on a planet.

If a imperial guard levy is not fit to standards then the governor's life is forfeit. Consequently, there is a very large incentive to send a planet's best soldiers to guard service.

The implication I got was that due to supply limitations and general resources that a governor can only equip and train so many soldiers to a super high standard and since those soldiers will be conscripted to the imperial guard, the governor's PDF is left fairly lacking.

Statistically speaking, the average enemy of the pdf is about 800lb and has a few hundred teeth.
Given that, I wouldn't expect them to be competent.

I figure they're generally at least fairly competent, keeping most worlds under control.

The reason they're regularly killed to the last man is because that's generally the point when the conflict has grown to large enough levels to warrant actually deploying the major Imperial armed forces (the IG and Space Marines). If they aren't dying in absolute droves, then no Guard or Marine armies would show up, as no true war would be going on, making it a lot less interesting a novel.

They're never seen as competent because you only read stories where a world is plunged into war. And that only happens if the PDF failed to keep the Emperor's Peace.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure how well I worded that. It's basically "if the PDF are mostly still alive the setting's main protagonists have no reason to be there because the situation is still fairly under control."

buddha wrote:I thought the problem with having competent PDF was the emperor's levy, IE the guard conscript requirements inherently taking away the best troops on a planet.

Elector wrote:The reason they're regularly killed to the last man is because that's generally the point when the conflict has grown to large enough levels to warrant actually deploying the major Imperial armed forces (the IG and Space Marines). If they aren't dying in absolute droves, then no Guard or Marine armies would show up, as no true war would be going on, making it a lot less interesting a novel.
They're never seen as competent because you only read stories where a world is plunged into war. And that only happens if the PDF failed to keep the Emperor's Peace.

Both excellent points that probably make up 90% of the reason, the rest being a mix of any possible causes from "this planet sucks" all the way to "the governor doesn't care".

Based on many of the stories I've read "the governor doesn't care" is one of the more prevalent reasons.

Kasrkin and Cadian Storm Troopers are interchangeable terms. Cadian Storm Troopers is probably just what people call Kasrkin operating outside of Cadia, which they do like all Cadian military units in general. Keep in mind that there were centuries and even millennia between Black Crusades (such as the 2,000 year period between the 5th and the 6th) and Chaos attacks beyond those can be dealt with by the forces already on the planet. Kasrkin are some of the best fighters in the galaxy and the Munitorum wouldn't station them on the same world for 2,000 years doing nothing.

Of course with the 13th Black Crusade nearly all Cadian Shock Troops and Kasrkin for that matter are involved in the fighting there, so 999.M41 and beyond won't see a lot of "Cadian Storm Troopers" outside of Cadia...

Cadian's don't have Storm Troopers, in name. Storm Troopers are distinctly Storm Troopers that may be recruited from Cadia. The Kasrkins are the Cadian Elite, and are the best example of competent PDF, as they exist solely to protect Cadia herself and are identical in both fluff and stats to Storm Troopers - with the exception of weaponry because Kasrkins didn't appear in the last codex.

DemetriDominov wrote:Cadian's don't have Storm Troopers, in name.

No one said they did, they have Kasrkin, which non-Cadians might very well call "Cadian Storm Troopers" considering that Kasrkin is literally Cadian for "City Kin" and most people probably don't know how to speak Cadian if there are any differences beyond a few words.

Storm Troopers are distinctly Storm Troopers that may be recruited from Cadia.

What? You mean Kasrkin are distinctly storm troopers that may be recruited from Cadia?

identical in both fluff and stats to Storm Troopers

So they are for all intents and purposes Cadian Storm Troopers considering that the entire Interior Defence Force isn't made out of them.

- with the exception of weaponry because Kasrkins didn't appear in the last codex.

Kasrkin didn't appear in any codex.