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I have come to realize that barrage weapon is a very very good sniping weapon. Unlike other sniping/precision shot weapons, the chance of sniping a model is 1/3 instead of 1/6. Plus you put on tons of wounds. Perhaps the Str 5 AP4 Barrage Large Blast of Whirlwind might finally have a place especially now that 6 heavy slots is not so hard to get.

I still think an Auto/Las Pred has the edge but of course it depends on your army. I've always liked the Whirlwid and now it certainly seems worth taking

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Basilisks and Manticores.

Actually, this does make Mortars more interesting, now that you mention it...

Griffon with Accurate Bombardment. Oh, baby.

You want 100% wound allocation? (and happened to be playing Gray Knights?)

1) Stick a vindicare assassin in the missile silo part of the fortress of redemption.
2) Buy the 'krakstorm' upgrade.
3) ???
4) Profit. (and by 'profit' i mean dropping those str 8 ap-3, barrage, large blasts pretty much anywhere you want to at will; and assigning the wounds whereever you please too...)

One of the fun returnees from 2nd and 3rd ed. The 5th ed wound system was to stop this trick, guess GW decided the game was better with it.

They became snipers, but it's not as much as is made out.

Against an opponent who knows how to displace, you're looking at only getting one hit with a small blast template, and 3 hits with your whirlwinds. First it has to hit exactly where you want, then it needs to wound with all its hits. Then they still get armor saves. At least a sniper avoids this with rending.

As such, I don't see this as being significantly superior. Were I wanting to be sniping with marines, I'd just take sniper scouts with or without telion (but especially with telion). Cheaper, more reliable, and scoring.

Imperial guard have a little more to say on the matter, what with the basilisk being Ap3 and not having a minimum range anymore, and the colossus having Ap3 and ignoring cover (not that that REALLY matters here, but still). As for marines, it's probably best to do it the old fashioned way.

Well, they're certainly better snipers than things actually using sniper weapons. 1/3 is twice as good as 1/6. And that's without line of sight.

But not really, when you zoom out a bit. A whirlwind costs as much as 6 scouts with sniper rifles.

The Whirlwind needs a hit, so that's .333. Let's be generous and assume it hits 5 models. Against guardsmen (with castellan missiles), that's 3 wounds, while against marines and termies (with vengeance), it's also 3 wounds. The guardsmen are boned here, but the marines and terminators get armor saves. The end result is roughly 1 for picking out the one guard model you want, and is .333 for marines and .166 for termies.

The sniper rifles get 6 shots, 4 of which hit, with a .166 precise shot per hit. These shots ignore armor saves, which gives you a blanket .666 against everything.

So, whirlwinds are about 1/2 better at sniping guardsmen, but they're only about 1/2 as good at sniping marines, and are about 1/4 as good at sniping terminators.

Of course, there are other things to consider between these two units like the fact that whirlwinds are a little bit generically better against hordes and the snipers are a fair bit better against MCs. As you mentioned, the whirlwind can shoot out of LOS, but the snipers also score.

In the end, as far as just the sniping is concerned, though, the scouts with sniper rifles are better at sniping most targets than the whirlwind.

Ailaros wrote:But not really, when you zoom out a bit. A whirlwind costs as much as 6 scouts with sniper rifles.

The Whirlwind needs a hit, so that's .333. Let's be generous and assume it hits 5 models. Against guardsmen (with castellan missiles), that's 3 wounds, while against marines and termies (with vengeance), it's also 3 wounds. The guardsmen are boned here, but the marines and terminators get armor saves. The end result is roughly 1 for picking out the one guard model you want, and is .333 for marines and .166 for termies.

The sniper rifles get 6 shots, 4 of which hit, with a .166 precise shot per hit. These shots ignore armor saves, which gives you a blanket .666 against everything.

So, whirlwinds are about 1/2 better at sniping guardsmen, but they're only about 1/2 as good at sniping marines, and are about 1/4 as good at sniping terminators.

Of course, there are other things to consider between these two units like the fact that whirlwinds are a little bit generically better against hordes and the snipers are a fair bit better against MCs. As you mentioned, the whirlwind can shoot out of LOS, but the snipers also score.

In the end, as far as just the sniping is concerned, though, the scouts with sniper rifles are better at sniping most targets than the whirlwind.

The Sniper special rule states that a To Hit roll of 6 is a Precision Shot and the Rending Special Rule states that a To Wound roll of 6 is an automatic wound with AP2.

That means that in your example out of a squad of 6 Sniper rifles 1 should be a Precision Shot that can be allocated which then has a 16% chance to wound at AP2.

That's a 1 in 36 chance per Sniper of getting a Rending Precision Shot which isn't as good as you make it out to be.

One thing I notice people forgetting about Sniper Rifles though is that they can Glance AV12 with better odds than getting a Rending Precision Shot as they count as S3 vs vehicles and if they Roll a 6 for penetration get to add D3 to that.

It's not great odds but if there is nothing else for your snipers to shoot at they do have a chance of hurting vehicles and they at least have a chance of Glancing AV12 unlike a Whirlwind which at best can manage AV11 (although at least a Whirlwind has good odds of landing it against rear armour).

I'm thinking Mortar HWS might be worth investigating vs low armour enemies.

EDIT: I'd also like to say that Eldar Rangers now have one of the most confusing weapons in the game as if they HIT on a 6 then they get a Precise Shot (Sniper) at AP1 (Ranger Long Rifle) that wounds on a 4+ (Sniper) but which if they roll a 6 to WOUND it has AP2 (Rending granted by Sniper). Then if they are Pathfinders if they roll a 5 to hit they get a Non-Precise Shot that has AP1 unless they roll a 6 to wound which makes it AP2.

My mind boggles as to why this wasn't covered in the FAQ because by this point my brain has dribbled out of my ear.

Ailaros wrote:But not really, when you zoom out a bit. A whirlwind costs as much as 6 scouts with sniper rifles.

The Whirlwind needs

D-Cannons and Mortars aren't nearly as expensive. This thread is about Barrage weapons, not Whirlwinds.

Well, whirlwinds were the point the OP was trying to bring up.

I wouldn't count on mortars. Against proper displacement, you're only doing one hit per hit. Against a guardsman, that's a .333 to hit the right model, a .666 to wound, and a .666 to kill. That's not exactly phenominal.

D-cannons are actually somewhat interesting, but it's mostly from the whole remove model from play thing being able to pick grimnar completely out of terminators. Still, you've got to roll a 6 to make that happen, right?

Ailaros wrote:
The sniper rifles get 6 shots, 4 of which hit, with a .166 precise shot per hit. These shots ignore armor saves, which gives you a blanket .666 against everything.

Just a math nitpick, The scout sarge is BS 4, the troops are BS 3. It looks like you were using the flat 2/3 hit of a full BS 4 unit. I don't think it affects your conclusion, but does skew the numbers a bit. Not sure if/when you are rounding.

I think scout snipers have changed in every edition of the rules in some subtle but important way.

Ailaros wrote:
D-cannons are actually somewhat interesting, but it's mostly from the whole remove model from play thing being able to pick grimnar completely out of terminators. Still, you've got to roll a 6 to make that happen, right?

It's just Instant Death, but yeah on a 6. Still wound on a 2+, Ap 2 otherwise though.

And Warp Hunters carry the 36", large blast D-cannon. That's nothing to sneeze at.

It's just instant death? Boo...

Rob451 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:But not really, when you zoom out a bit. A whirlwind costs as much as 6 scouts with sniper rifles.

The Whirlwind needs a hit, so that's .333. Let's be generous and assume it hits 5 models. Against guardsmen (with castellan missiles), that's 3 wounds, while against marines and termies (with vengeance), it's also 3 wounds. The guardsmen are boned here, but the marines and terminators get armor saves. The end result is roughly 1 for picking out the one guard model you want, and is .333 for marines and .166 for termies.

The sniper rifles get 6 shots, 4 of which hit, with a .166 precise shot per hit. These shots ignore armor saves, which gives you a blanket .666 against everything.

So, whirlwinds are about 1/2 better at sniping guardsmen, but they're only about 1/2 as good at sniping marines, and are about 1/4 as good at sniping terminators.

Of course, there are other things to consider between these two units like the fact that whirlwinds are a little bit generically better against hordes and the snipers are a fair bit better against MCs. As you mentioned, the whirlwind can shoot out of LOS, but the snipers also score.

In the end, as far as just the sniping is concerned, though, the scouts with sniper rifles are better at sniping most targets than the whirlwind.

The Sniper special rule states that a To Hit roll of 6 is a Precision Shot and the Rending Special Rule states that a To Wound roll of 6 is an automatic wound with AP2.

That means that in your example out of a squad of 6 Sniper rifles 1 should be a Precision Shot that can be allocated which then has a 16% chance to wound at AP2.

That's a 1 in 36 chance per Sniper of getting a Rending Precision Shot which isn't as good as you make it out to be.

One thing I notice people forgetting about Sniper Rifles though is that they can Glance AV12 with better odds than getting a Rending Precision Shot as they count as S3 vs vehicles and if they Roll a 6 for penetration get to add D3 to that.

It's not great odds but if there is nothing else for your snipers to shoot at they do have a chance of hurting vehicles and they at least have a chance of Glancing AV12 unlike a Whirlwind which at best can manage AV11 (although at least a Whirlwind has good odds of landing it against rear armour).

I'm thinking Mortar HWS might be worth investigating vs low armour enemies.

EDIT: I'd also like to say that Eldar Rangers now have one of the most confusing weapons in the game as if they HIT on a 6 then they get a Precise Shot (Sniper) at AP1 (Ranger Long Rifle) that wounds on a 4+ (Sniper) but which if they roll a 6 to WOUND it has AP2 (Rending granted by Sniper). Then if they are Pathfinders if they roll a 5 to hit they get a Non-Precise Shot that has AP1 unless they roll a 6 to wound which makes it AP2.

My mind boggles as to why this wasn't covered in the FAQ because by this point my brain has dribbled out of my ear.

I played with my rangers the other weekend and ran into this problem. I just couldnt figure it out in my head. Then when I tried to explain what I thought was the correct use of them to my opponent he just stared at me blankly. Clarification on this would help greatly. I dont think that a shot that is already made to shoot at AP1 can be reduced back to AP 2 cuz of rending. That just seems odd.

My take...

Ranger:
To hit- 1-2 miss, 3-5 normal hit, 6 Hit with AP1 bonus
To wound- 1-3 doesn't wound, 4-5 normal wound (with AP1 bonus if 6 was rolled to hit), 6 rending wound (AP 2 if 3-5 was rolled to hit, AP 1 if 6 was rolled to hit)

The only time rending is usefull after you already roll an AP1 shot is if you are shooting armour. Then the rending is meaningful as it give you a possible chance at a better AV penetration.

Pathfinder:
To hit- 1-2 miss, 3-4 normal hit, 5-6 Hit with AP1 bonus
To wound- 1-3 doesn't wound, 4-5 normal wound (with AP1 bonus if 5-6 was rolled to hit), 6 rending wound (AP 2 if 3-4 was rolled to hit, AP 1 if 5-6 was rolled to hit)

But if you're taking rending, then you're taking rending. You can't both get the +D3 AND the benefit of Ap1.

If you're taking the +D3 because of rending, then you need to take the entirety of the rule, not just the parts you like the best.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
D-cannons are actually somewhat interesting, but it's mostly from the whole remove model from play thing being able to pick grimnar completely out of terminators. Still, you've got to roll a 6 to make that happen, right?

It's just Instant Death, but yeah on a 6. Still wound on a 2+, Ap 2 otherwise though.

And Warp Hunters carry the 36", large blast D-cannon. That's nothing to sneeze at.

It's only blast. It's the template that makes it interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:But if you're taking rending, then you're taking rending. You can't both get the +D3 AND the benefit of Ap1.

If you're taking the +D3 because of rending, then you need to take the entirety of the rule, not just the parts you like the best.

Yes you can. You get a shot that's +D3, AP2 and AP1. All at the same time. Whether AP2 and AP1 stack on the damage table is about as certain as your statement regarding having to pick. It's up in the air. Certain is only that it becomes AP1 and AP2 at the same time, and that usually you pick the "best" value.

Rending only changes your ap when wounding, not when rolling for armour pen.

Neorealist wrote:You want 100% wound allocation? (and happened to be playing Gray Knights?)

1) Stick a vindicare assassin in the missile silo part of the fortress of redemption.
2) Buy the 'krakstorm' upgrade.
3) ???
4) Profit. (and by 'profit' i mean dropping those str 8 ap-3, barrage, large blasts pretty much anywhere you want to at will; and assigning the wounds whereever you please too...)

Ailaros wrote:Well, whirlwinds were the point the OP was trying to bring up.

I wouldn't count on mortars. Against proper displacement, you're only doing one hit per hit. Against a guardsman, that's a .333 to hit the right model, a .666 to wound, and a .666 to kill. That's not exactly phenominal.

D-cannons are actually somewhat interesting, but it's mostly from the whole remove model from play thing being able to pick grimnar completely out of terminators. Still, you've got to roll a 6 to make that happen, right?

I like Mortars for non-sniping related reasons really (the sniping part is gravy) because people are now bunching up their troops more in cover to prevent focus fire so it's easier to hit 3 or more people with a blast and you can drop the blasts on a squad that is hunkered down behind an Aegis defence line and negate their cover save thanks to the barrage rule. Oh and they pin which can reduce them to snapshots.

That and they are super cheap.

I wouldn't take them against MeQ though as their save and high leadership will pretty much negate them entirely.

A Griffon on the other hand can act as a spotter for a couple of Colossus so I'd keep an eye on those if the majority of your characters are T3. You could easily snipe the Commissars out of a IG squad with a Griffon rerolling the scatter dice.

Lilrys wrote:Rending only changes your ap when wounding, not when rolling for armour pen.

This is the answer right here. Against Armour, There is no Rending bonus of AP2. BUT if you are an Eldar ranger/pathfinder and happen to have a high enough to hit roll to grant AP1 then you do get to use it.

When shooting non vehicle targets, A to hit from a ranger that rolls a 6 is AP1. Then say you get a rending roll from a to wound roll of a 6 as well. It is now AP 1 and AP 2. So why would you take lesser value? I don't know anywhere that says that. You are taking the ENTIRE part fo the rending rule. But at the same time you are also taking the rule from the Eldar codex. So your gun has AP1 and AP2. I would never try and argue that it gets bonuses from both. But I sure would argue that you get the benefit of the highest. This would only ever come int concern when shooting a vehicle anyway. If you shoot at anything else ad happen to have AP1 and the rending rule, Then the AP1 is always better anyway.

Grey Templar wrote:

Neorealist wrote:You want 100% wound allocation? (and happened to be playing Gray Knights?)

1) Stick a vindicare assassin in the missile silo part of the fortress of redemption.
2) Buy the 'krakstorm' upgrade.
3) ???
4) Profit. (and by 'profit' i mean dropping those str 8 ap-3, barrage, large blasts pretty much anywhere you want to at will; and assigning the wounds whereever you please too...)

Nice idea! I'm gonna go steal it and put it on the GK main thread on tactics now

Although I'd buy a different assasin, maybe evisor to man the gun as I like my vind to stll be shooting other people. A psyocculum may also help in this case to wipe out those pesky runes of warding or rune priests

sudojoe wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Neorealist wrote:You want 100% wound allocation? (and happened to be playing Gray Knights?)

1) Stick a vindicare assassin in the missile silo part of the fortress of redemption.
2) Buy the 'krakstorm' upgrade.
3) ???
4) Profit. (and by 'profit' i mean dropping those str 8 ap-3, barrage, large blasts pretty much anywhere you want to at will; and assigning the wounds whereever you please too...)

Nice idea! I'm gonna go steal it and put it on the GK main thread on tactics now

Although I'd buy a different assasin, maybe evisor to man the gun as I like my vind to stll be shooting other people. A psyocculum may also help in this case to wipe out those pesky runes of warding or rune priests

Isn't the point of a vindicare to use his precision shot thing, whatever it is called? That would be evil with a krakstorm.

Yes, thats the point.

Mwhahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, thats the point.

Mwhahahahahahahahahaha!!!

wait, a min, aren't you limited by where the barrage hits anyway for which models get it?

I figured with BS8, it'll be hard to miss anyway. At most you can possibly drift is 4 inches and it's not that often. If I put the hole over what I want, aren't I already selecting which targets get hit? Then they assign cover, if any are warrented

Don't Barrage weapons not reduce scatter by Ballistic skill, making the Vindi in the Fortress dumb?

I was going to say you can't use your BS and still get the benefits of barrage. However, I checked the book and you can still get the allocation/side armour benefits even when you are using direct fire. This seems weird and wrong. In fact, the barrage rules seem odd in several respects.

Edit: Although thinking about it, it would be hard to get los with a krakstorm as the missiles are recessed. The assassin could stand on the battlements but then he would get shot.

Trickstick wrote:I was going to say you can't use your BS and still get the benefits of barrage. However, I checked the book and you can still get the allocation/side armour benefits even when you are using direct fire. This seems weird and wrong. In fact, the barrage rules seem odd in several respects.

Edit: Although thinking about it, it would be hard to get los with a krakstorm as the missiles are recessed. The assassin could stand on the battlements but then he would get shot.

hrm... so where do you draw the LOS from? The vindicare? or from the missles somehow? or from a firing port maybe on the side? (I don't have one so have no idea how the missles would work or where they are positioned) How do you draw LOS for weapons like that or missles in general since we assume they can curve?

This may well shed light on the storm raven top turret fight we've had in YMDC which is now locked lol.

sudojoe wrote:

Trickstick wrote:I was going to say you can't use your BS and still get the benefits of barrage. However, I checked the book and you can still get the allocation/side armour benefits even when you are using direct fire. This seems weird and wrong. In fact, the barrage rules seem odd in several respects.

Edit: Although thinking about it, it would be hard to get los with a krakstorm as the missiles are recessed. The assassin could stand on the battlements but then he would get shot.

hrm... so where do you draw the LOS from? The vindicare? or from the missles somehow? or from a firing port maybe on the side? (I don't have one so have no idea how the missles would work or where they are positioned) How do you draw LOS for weapons like that or missles in general since we assume they can curve?

This may well shed light on the storm raven top turret fight we've had in YMDC which is now locked lol.

Well the fortress doesn't have any fire points, except on the middle walkway bit. The rules state that you use the los of the weapon though. So it looks like the fortress can never use bs reduction for the missiles.