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For the first time making an army list, I feel stumped. I want to design a BT army that is all foot slogging with no rhinos, preferably no drop pods and definitely no land speeders.
I was planning the list to incorporate 2 20 man crusader squads with all CCW, a melta and a fist, a squad of shooty terminators with 2 CMLs, assault terminators, a Marshal with artificer, eternal warrior and either storm shield and claw or claw fist and iron halo, a base artificer chaplain with pistol for more attacks and my champion with AAC.

I feel that this list is missing more than the 50ish points that bumps it to 1500.
Any and all help is good, but please keep in mind that I am trying to make a foot slogging list, so please no rhinos or land speeders. I was thinking about squeezing vindicator in there but they would be too vulnerable if I could only fit 1.

EDIT: NEW ARMY LIST IN COMMENTS

You need some more scoring units

At 1500 points I would feel safe with just 2 troop choices. If your looking to burn those 50 some odd points, just put another terminator in that assault squad. Or take an agis defense line, with out weapons... it would give you that +1 to cover while your running across the board. I think I am going to make a list close to yours soon. I want to run 2 chappys in the main squads, and then maybe geta tech marine in there as well. i woudl do aan 1850 list tho.

I would advice to change most of the wargear on your marshal. At least drop that shield, depending on what shield it is, neither a ++5 save or a ++4 save with no extra attack is going to save you as you are playing a footslogging army (which is always unwise IMHO, especially with CC oriented armies such as this). I would get rid of the Unwieldy Claw also, and give him a Master Crafted Power Sword and a Master Crafted plasma pistol, that way he can get the extra attack in addition to AAC and strike at his normal Initiative.
Chaplain should always be upgraded to a Master of Sancitity, and since he is most useful with Assault Marines, there is little need for him in this case. Spend the points elsewhere, or give him a terminator armor and make him join the AT squad.

As for the aforementioned Assault Terminators, they are gunfodder in a footslogging army unless you plan to deep strike them or give them a LRC. Either way, this is a useful unit, but not as a footslogger. Shooty Termies are alright, but since you already have an AT squad and this is not a very large army, you should either spend the points to another squad of initiates or buy a secondary Assault Termie squad. Anyways, drop this.

Initiates are good. I would advice taking another squad of them, since you only have two scoring units in your army. Alternatively, you could buy an assault squad or two and equip them to kill tanks with a Power Fist and Melta bombs (as they get an extra attack due to being jump infantry). Therefore, your initiates could focus on killing infantry instead, a role which I have discovered to be most suited for them.

Alright, I have made an edit, but I really like Ambrosius's advice.
HQ
CHAPLAIN – BOLT PISTOL – MASTER OF SANCTITY – ARTIFICER – 131
CHAMPION – UPHOLD THE HONOUR – 100
ELITE
ASSAULT TERMIES – 3 TH/SS – 2 CLAWS – 200
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
TROOPS
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
total = 1501

I really like the idea of assault marines (they were buffed big time) so I could see if I can scrap the assault terminators and add some in. Should I always make them in a squad of 10? Or is 7 or 8 good enough (with upgrades)?

ShottyScotty wrote:Alright, I have made an edit, but I really like Ambrosius's advice.
HQ
CHAPLAIN – BOLT PISTOL – MASTER OF SANCTITY – ARTIFICER – 131
CHAMPION – UPHOLD THE HONOUR – 100
ELITE
ASSAULT TERMIES – 3 TH/SS – 2 CLAWS – 200
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
TROOPS
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
total = 1501

I really like the idea of assault marines (they were buffed big time) so I could see if I can scrap the assault terminators and add some in. Should I always make them in a squad of 10? Or is 7 or 8 good enough (with upgrades)?

A squad of even 5 Assault Marines can sometimes be enough, so I would say about 6-7 Marines would do. The edit makes this list look more solid, good job on that. Uphold the Honour is something you should never take, however. It makes the army actually worse than it would be with no vow at all. Cover saves are useful, at least for your shooty termies, and not being able to use them is a big loss, considering you only get an ivulnerable save which has a 5/6 chance of not working. AAC or Suffer not the Unclean to live are the only usable vows in my opinion, the latter only in some cases. Your best bet is to always take AAC.

I'll edit in AAC. I normally use that vow, but I thought I could switch to Uphold as a point saver. AAC is really needed in an assault list. I'll work on adding the assault marines. Should I put the MoS with them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Plasma pistols are good? And our storm shields are really only 3 points on an assault team?
So far I am thinking:
5 assault marines Total - All with frag
2 Marines with Storm Shields and Melta Bombs
2 Marines with Plasma Pistol and CCW
1 Marine with Fist
Total - 150
That gives me enough points to give the MoS a jump pack and give my champion AAC while keeping the total at 1501

Storm Shields got an FAQ i believe, I would check that out, I think they are 15 points for a +4 save. They are not the same as the Termie SS of +3.

ShottyScotty wrote:I'll edit in AAC. I normally use that vow, but I thought I could switch to Uphold as a point saver. AAC is really needed in an assault list. I'll work on adding the assault marines. Should I put the MoS with them?
You might wanna do that. Assault Squad joined by him is a beast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Plasma pistols are good? And our storm shields are really only 3 points on an assault team?
As J99Pwrangler said, combat shields got FAQd to 15 points per model and only give a ++6 save. Storm Shields give a ++4 save. The FAQs can be found here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2
So far I am thinking:
5 assault marines Total - All with frag
Good choice.
2 Marines with Storm Shields and Melta Bombs
Ok, I guess. Still, Storm Shields are not neccessary, unless you fear for your survivability.
2 Marines with Plasma Pistol and CCW
Good choice.
1 Marine with Fist
Total - 150
That gives me enough points to give the MoS a jump pack and give my champion AAC while keeping the total at 1501

Sounds good to me. That way you have an additional scoring unit, which can threaten enemy tanks and monstrous creatures.

Ehhh... Lightning claws are not unwieldy, they are specialist weapons. Also, combat shield gives 6+ all the time, and storm shields are 3++. It's in the FAQ. Also, I just want you to be aware that that unit of assault marines are 175 (and honestly not so great IMO). Stormshields are 15 points from the armory and for assault marines (In FAQ), and you have to buy meltabombs for the whole squad. Secondly, I would not use the chaplain with our assault marines, but put him with a blob squad, as not passing righteous zeal sucks. Since you are doing blob, I would consider Grimaldus for the 6'' fearless bubble, allowing you to auto-pass righteous zeal for at least 2 squads. If you decide to stick with a normal chaplain, he needs a Fist to beat on things with a 2+ or 3+ save.

As to vows, do not take Uphold. Ever. It doesn't save points (with that 40 points, you can buy a terminator. And he already has a 5+ invuln, and ld9 (And you could have given him +2 attacks on the charge...etc), it makes your army worse. No cover is not a fair trade for no pinning and a 6+. I don't know much about Suffer Not, but terminators can buy a skill for 3 points a model, and the bonus doesn't stack with furious charge. Abhor has become better with 6th, and a d6 move can help your blob cross the field if they brought a psyker. AAC is still good.

Check out www.implausiblenature.net, Laeroth knows what he's talking about.

Thank you for the correction, I knew they FAQ'd it, but I was not sure the exact details on it, I am at work, and dont have my codex, or FAQ.

So are assault Marines worth it in 6th ed? I maybe interested in looking in to them for myself!

I don't know if they are better (only one game using 5 man squad, meltabombs, axe/SS, SS so far). They seem to work better with rage, but they still have the issue of being overpriced. As I was playing against daemons, I wasn't able to use the meltabombs that hit on 3s (stupid flying MCs). They look cool though

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

ShottyScotty wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Plasma pistols are good? And our storm shields are really only 3 points on an assault team?
As J99Pwrangler said, combat shields got FAQd to 15 points per model and only give a ++6 save. Storm Shields give a ++4 save. The FAQs can be found here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2
So far I am thinking:
5 assault marines Total - All with frag
Good choice.
2 Marines with Storm Shields and Melta Bombs
Ok, I guess. Still, Storm Shields are not neccessary, unless you fear for your survivability.
2 Marines with Plasma Pistol and CCW
Good choice.
1 Marine with Fist
Total - 150
That gives me enough points to give the MoS a jump pack and give my champion AAC while keeping the total at 1501

Sounds good to me. That way you have an additional scoring unit, which can threaten enemy tanks and monstrous creatures.

Alright. I found that our storm shields cost more now, but I dont see the part where it confers a 4++ instead of a 3++.
So scrap the storm shields. So with the spare points I could give the MoS Bionics, Melta Bombs or a teleport homer. Which is best? Also, new list so far is:
HQ
CHAPLAIN – MASTER OF SANCTITY – ARTIFICER – JUMP PACK – BOLT PISTOL – 151
CHAMPION – AAC – 140
ELITE
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
FAST
ASSAULT MARINES – 2 PISTOL/CCW – 2 PLAS/ CCW – 1 FIST/PISTOL – KRAK – 140
TROOPS
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
Total - 1491

I would exchange the Cyclone Missile Launchers in one squad of Terminators for 2 Assault Cannons and give that unit Tank Hunter. Tank Hunter let's you reroll armor penetration rolls now, so two of those cannons can really chew up all but the heaviest vehicles.

2 Cannons + Tank Hunter on a 5 Man Squad would raise the cost to 255.

You should also give the Assault marines Meltabombs instead of Krak Grenades. It would only cost 5 points more for the enitre square (1pre KrakG, 2pre MeltaB)
I would drop the Assault guy with the Fist/Pistol to Power Weapon/Pistol to pay for that upgrade to the squad.

I'm a little iffy on the power fists in the squads, since they only get the one base attack, but you are paying less points for it so it's not too bad. I would recommend Power Axe (Str+1, AP2, Init 1) or Power Maul (Str +2, AP4) as an alternative if you do change it.

I am contemplating just using a power weapon, and taking Melta bombs does seems like a better idea. I will play test the assault cannon/cml.
But back to the power weapon, I like that it gives the +1 attack, I am just hesitant to which power weapon to use. I am more drawn to the maul because it is Str 6 ap 4, same initiative. I dont know if I like the Axe, because the +1 str does and ap 2 does not justify I1. Id rather use a fist for that.
Which power weapons does everyone use and how useful are they?

I think on the Assault Squad, you should go with the Sword. I'm assuming that you're attaching your Master of Sanctity to the squad and he has a Power Maul (that's what the Crozius is now) so having someone who can't be singled out striking with AP 3 isn't bad since you've got the Chappy already. You have two plasma pistols that strike at AP2 and I11 anyways.

I think the Axe will be the better bet in the Crusader Squad. They can't be challenged and with the +1 Str, AP2 and the size of the unit, there's a lot less risk of them getting picked off so going at I1 isn't so harsh. The extra attacks will help kill models and force combat resolution in your direction (which is really what you want him to do).


EDIT: Something I though of while I was on the can (where I do my best work) was that it might not be a terrible idea to take the "6+ Invul all the time" vow. It's only 10pts and you've got 2 large units, plus cover is only 5+ now and you don't get it in close combat. Also, since the Neophytes don't get the Rage bonus there's like 40% of your army that's not getting the "Accept Any Challenge" bonus. Plus it makes you immune to pinning and you don't have a Marshall to throw his Ld 10 all over the place.

EDIT: Tons of spelling errors and unit boo-boos.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, for 5 points take the Teleport Homer on the Master of Sanctity. Let him jump pack around and the drop the Assault Cannon terminator squad right in the middle of wherever.

I use a similar tactic on my Infiltrating High Marshall...it's mean.

BTNeophyte wrote:Ehhh... Lightning claws are not unwieldy, they are specialist weapons. Also, combat shield gives 6+ all the time, and storm shields are 3++. It's in the FAQ. Also, I just want you to be aware that that unit of assault marines are 175 (and honestly not so great IMO). Stormshields are 15 points from the armory and for assault marines (In FAQ), and you have to buy meltabombs for the whole squad. Secondly, I would not use the chaplain with our assault marines, but put him with a blob squad, as not passing righteous zeal sucks. Since you are doing blob, I would consider Grimaldus for the 6'' fearless bubble, allowing you to auto-pass righteous zeal for at least 2 squads. If you decide to stick with a normal chaplain, he needs a Fist to beat on things with a 2+ or 3+ save.

As to vows, do not take Uphold. Ever. It doesn't save points (with that 40 points, you can buy a terminator. And he already has a 5+ invuln, and ld9 (And you could have given him +2 attacks on the charge...etc), it makes your army worse. No cover is not a fair trade for no pinning and a 6+. I don't know much about Suffer Not, but terminators can buy a skill for 3 points a model, and the bonus doesn't stack with furious charge. Abhor has become better with 6th, and a d6 move can help your blob cross the field if they brought a psyker. AAC is still good.

Check out www.implausiblenature.net, Laeroth knows what he's talking about.

First of all, do not assume I don't know what I am talking about. I won a tourney once, so I think I am a wee bit qualified to give him advice.

I miswrote the armor save, I meant they give a ++3 save. Still, the Storm Shields cannot be given to Assault Squads. Besides, even though Assault Squads are 175 points (don't really see your point here) they are cheaper than a 10/10 Initiate blob, which is 260 points by default. Given the right equipment an Assault Squad can be a much more mobile, cheaper and more effective unit. Especially in an army like this, which otherwise lacks mobility as it has no dedicated transports.

Chaplain is useful in an Assault squad because of litanies of hate. Combine rerolling failed To Hits with the +1 attack from AAC,+1 attack from having two weapons, +1 attack from assaulting and finally +1 attack from being jump infantry. Nice trade for just 6 points more than Initiates, considering you get 5 attacks on an Assault Marine instead of the 4 attacks per Initiate. A ten man assault squad gets 50 attacks in close combat on the turn they attack, instead of the 40 attacks made by initiates. Of course, if you take Neophytes, that's going to be a lot more, possibly. But with the Neophytes' WS3, I would take an Assault Squad with a Power Fist and a Chaplain over them any day.

Grimaldus is usually a waste of points from my experience. His stats are worse than those of a Master of Sanctity, and his only saving grace is his bubble, and his rather overpriced chance to come back alive. Besides he is a fire magnet because of Unmatched Zeal, and he only has two wounds, which is worse than the MoS in his current army list with a +2 save. Considering he does not even have Eternal Warrior, he can be one-shotted on turn one. With his cost, you can field more Marines/Assault Marines/Terminators, and still afford the MoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShottyScotty wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

ShottyScotty wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Plasma pistols are good? And our storm shields are really only 3 points on an assault team?
As J99Pwrangler said, combat shields got FAQd to 15 points per model and only give a ++6 save. Storm Shields give a ++4 save. The FAQs can be found here: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2
So far I am thinking:
5 assault marines Total - All with frag
Good choice.
2 Marines with Storm Shields and Melta Bombs
Ok, I guess. Still, Storm Shields are not neccessary, unless you fear for your survivability.
2 Marines with Plasma Pistol and CCW
Good choice.
1 Marine with Fist
Total - 150
That gives me enough points to give the MoS a jump pack and give my champion AAC while keeping the total at 1501

Sounds good to me. That way you have an additional scoring unit, which can threaten enemy tanks and monstrous creatures.

Alright. I found that our storm shields cost more now, but I dont see the part where it confers a 4++ instead of a 3++.
So scrap the storm shields. So with the spare points I could give the MoS Bionics, Melta Bombs or a teleport homer. Which is best? Also, new list so far is:
Teleport Homer. That way you do not have the risk of Deep Strike Mishaps, and you won't scatter when deep Striking those Terminator Squads.
HQ
CHAPLAIN – MASTER OF SANCTITY – ARTIFICER – JUMP PACK – BOLT PISTOL – 151
CHAMPION – AAC – 140
Looks solid.
ELITE
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
Fine.
FAST
ASSAULT MARINES – 2 PISTOL/CCW – 2 PLAS/ CCW – 1 FIST/PISTOL – KRAK – 140
Fine, plasma can be nice when dealing with +2 saves. IF you don't roll ones too often...
TROOPS
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
Fine.
Total - 1491

Now you list is starting to look really competitive and solid. You still have nine points left, which you can use for that Teleport homer.

Took all of your advice, tweaked the list a bit, and here is what I got:
HQ
CHAPLAIN – MASTER OF SANCTITY – ARTIFICER – JUMP PACK – BOLT PISTOL – TELEPORT HOMER – 156
CHAMPION – AAC – 140
ELITE
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
FAST
ASSAULT MARINES – 2 PISTOL/CCW – 2 PLAS/ CCW – 1 SWORD/PISTOL – MELTA BOMBS – 140
TROOPS
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
10/10 SQUAD – CCW – FIST – MELTA – 285
Total - 1496
I gave the "Sargent" of the assault squad a sword so he could get the attack bonus while still taking out Marine Equivalent armour. I gave the squad Melts bombs to deal with any monstrous creatures or tanks for cheap.
Im going to keep the power fists on the crusader squads for now, but I will magnetize them to be swappable with a power axe just in case. If I do that I'll use the spare points for a holy orb of antioch for the Master of Sanctity.
I was originally going to walk the whole army (termies too) but deep striking them with the safety net of the teleport homer is a great alternative.

@Ambrosius-wasnt trying to say you didn't know what you were talking about, was trying to say that Laeroth was a good resource. Sorry if it came off that way.

The list looks good. Since they are shooty termies I wouldn't deep strike them if they have cml, though it is a good option to have. I would try and find a few points to give the termies tank hunters

SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250

Why would not not take Tank Hunters on these guys?

I ran the "black tide" in 3rd edition... good times . Unfortunately, I can't remember back that far well enough to help, and it'd probably be moot anyway! But I found it to be a lot of fun

If you don't want speeders, you might consider a few bikes or attack bikes in particular, to mix things up.

Roguejm11 wrote:SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250
SHOOTY TERMIES – 2 CML – 250

Why would not not take Tank Hunters on these guys?

I would put in Tank Hunters, but I feel it was nerfed from 5th ed. I also dont know if I can find the points to make the upgrade.

I also want to know if this army could be fielded as a 1000 point list if I remove the terminator squads and change the homer to bionics. Its not an important thing, just wondering if the base of list is functional as a 1000, 1250 and as a 1500

In my experience I have found Halbrecht to be a solid fighter, and I have found Grimaldus to be good but not worth his points, your better off with a master of sanctity. I personally run a Black Tide list and Abhor seems to be the best for me and lightning claws are amazing.