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How do you think 6th Edition has affected the heavy support options available to Codex Compliant Space Marines.

I am a new player and I plan to run an infantry based list (I just prefer infantry) in the 1000pts and under range (750-1000). I really like Devastators and it seems like the inability to be stunned/shaken/immobilized is an advantage, however their cost is nigh on ridiculous (seems like GW reeeaaaaally wanted people to have to buy expensive armor models). A 10 man Dev squad with 2xML/2xPC or 4xML is 250pts and 230pts respectively; and for those points you are looking at two Preds/Vindis/Dreads at the least, 3-4 MM land speeders. That isn't even mentioning that I can give ML's/PC's/LC's/MM's to my Tacs and Sternguard for cheaper and let them take heavy weapon duties.

It seems that the hull points change has made vehicles it harder to get lucky one hit kills on vehicles, but made it easier to focus fire them down with more mediocre anti armor weapons.

So the question is....Even with my preference for infantry and therefore Devastators, do the benefits (points cost and utility) of armored options (preds/vindis/speeders/dreads) stack up enough to make Devastators a bad choice? What are the pros and cons of infantry based heavy weapons vs armor based heavy weapons.

Please keep in mind this is in reference to battles of 1000pts or less, with an eye to the future of building up to 1500pts.

Don't take the Bolter wielding ablative wounds and the Devastators are a little more reasonably priced.

You could also ally in some Blood Angel Devs, they're a tad cheaper.

Mobility is even more important in this edition that it was in 5th. Devastators are still overcosted for what they provide if they're not kitted out with 4x MLs, even then they're slightly overcosted. Predators are the go-to Heavy Support choice, just like they were in 5th. However, they're now even better since they are firing more often with snap shots and glancing no longer suppresses them. AV13 beyond Melta range is a very tough nut to crack, especially when considering the most common anti-tank weapon is the Krak Missile.

Vindicators also got the benefit of not being suppressed on a glance, but they have a much shorter range, meaning the AV11 side armor is a larger liability compared to the Predator. However, blasts doing full damage is an absolutely insane buff for the Demolisher Cannon. If you take Vindicators, the general rule in 5th was to take 3 or take none, not exactly sure how the rule plays in 6th since I haven't seen/heard of playtesting for them.

If you want Plasma Cannons, take them on Tac Squads. Since you should be making them max squads, a Plasma Cannon for 5 points is an absolute steal. There's a huge amount of paranoia in regards to Gets Hot!, but you know your own dice rolling. If you find yourself rolling 1s more often than you should, then don't take Plasma. I recently started taking Plasma Cannons on my Tacs and man do they bring the pain.

One of the cheesier things you'll start to see is the plasma cannon sniping from devastators. Because of the way wound allocation works from blasts you can keep putting blasts on one character until he dies, making it possible to snipe special and heavy weapons out of enemy units, you can alos force those LOS saves (which he will fail sometimes).

praetorian_aak wrote:One of the cheesier things you'll start to see is the plasma cannon sniping from devastators. Because of the way wound allocation works from blasts you can keep putting blasts on one character until he dies, making it possible to snipe special and heavy weapons out of enemy units, you can alos force those LOS saves (which he will fail sometimes).

I thought that only works with Barrage weapons? Wounds from regular blasts are allocated as for normal shooting (i.e., normal shooting attack, p. 33)

Praetorian, Blasts work the same way as normal shots as far as wound allocation goes. You're thinking of Barrage.

Thanks for the quick replies guys.

My main use for the heavy support/anti armor would be to pop enemy offensive armor as fast as possible. From then on I'd consider their mission a success and work my way down the threat priority list. My troops can take care of themselves as long as big guns aren't pounding them every round so it would be nice if my heavy support could address all targets but more so I want them just obliterating enemy offensive armor capabilities so my infantry can do their thing.

So which options would let me strike the hardest in the first shooting round? The difference between stats on paper and their application in game can be significant. How effective is 2xML/2xPC in game when it comes to armor? How are 2 str 8 AP3 and 2 str 7 AP2 shots on AV12/13/14? Does the PC scatter add a wildcard element? Should I bite the points bullet and put 2xLC/2xML in a 5 man Dev squad to maximize anti armor or give them the more versatile 2xML/2xPC loadout.

I feel like the 2ML/2PC will absolutely flatten any infantry or light vehicle and I have the points in my list that I could put a MM and/or meltagun on my tac squad or combi meltas on my Stern if I needed a boost in heavy anti armor (av13/14). Thing is I am leaning towards an aggressive but not entirely mobile gunline so the meltas would have a hard time getting into range.

Also, in regards to mobility, how badly will I need to be moving and changing positions in an average game at the 750 - 1000pts level? Would the mobility of mechanized heavy weapon options really be that big of a boost, or could I set up my Devs in a middle but slightly out of the way position and let them rain on anything within 36"-48".

Remember that you'll probably be looking for Hit Point kills most of the time, so you want as many weapons able to glance as possible. Although it's unlikely, four missile launchers could kill a Land Raider in one turn, and have a reasonable chance of doing that to a Rhino or Chimera.

I would still not mix weapons, although one lascannon to use the Sergeants signum is probably not a bad idea. Four missiles, or three missiles and one lascannon, are the way I would go in a Devastator squad. I wouldn't take more than five men unless I get to the end of my points and have enough left over to start taking ablative wounds.

Lower point games tend to value mobility more as the board is less saturated with targets. It's easier to deny clear shots for a given unit since there's less that needs to be hidden.

You may like Devs, but the simple truth is that they cost too much for what they can do. Especially in Codex Space Marines. Blood Angel Devs will cost 20 points less for 4x ML and have access to FNP. Long Fangs can get 5x ML for even less. The competitive choice is simply 'take a Predator.' At 1k points, you won't likely get the saturation to make Vindicators better. SM foot lists just don't really work that well. Mech up and take mobile heavy guns.

If you are absolutely dead set on running Devs anyways, don't mix weapon types. Plasma is still an elite-infantry hunting gun, MLs are suited for AT or hordes. You can only shoot at one target at a time, you're not Long Fangs. 4x ML will let you take hull points off most things and kill marines in the open without being too overcosted or sacrificing duality, while having the range to deploy very safely. If you really want plasma, give it to tacticals.

Thunderfire cannon.
Put the tecmarine up front.
You get the T7 from the weapon (see artillery rules), and would be using the tecmarines 2+ armor. Add with a structure fortified, you get 3+ cover.
T7 2+/3++ is pretty damn good for 100 points.
4 S6 blasts for 100 points? Awesomesauce.

With barrage weapons sniping, a whirlwind isn't totally out of the question either. But whirlwind I see more as a 3rd heavy choice, never a 1st or 2nd round pick.

-Matt

Dev squads are overpriced, but do put out a lot of firepower. They take damage differently then tanks. Shoot a dev squad with a MM, one guy dies, while the tank is toast. Rake some plasma fire over the tank, it laughs, while the devs are loosing guys. Devs are also a very static firebase. Pretty much ever other option is better on the move.

Another thing to consider is how much shooting you need. How often do you need to shoot 4 lascannons into a single target? Massive overkill most of the time. But if you mix weapons, you are often shooting sup-par or useless weapons at the wrong target. And paying a pretty penny for the luxury of doing so. I tend to use my Dev squads to take out infantry, not tanks. So normally gear then up with 2xHB and then 2xML (if points are tight) or 2xPC (if I want to bring the pain) I use shooty dreads, speeders, and my own tanks for the long range AT role.

While it does keep the points high, I always field 10 man squads. The ablative wounds are the key feature to the durability of the codex dev squad. Any wounds a long fang squad takes makes it weaker, but SM devs can keep firing long after other heavy support has gone silent. Plus in a anti-infantry role, extra bolter shots add up.

For pure infantry long range anti tank fire, I'd look elsewhere. Combat squad off the lascannon from a tac squad. Field a 5 man sternguard squad with two heavy weapons. The big guns are significantly cheeper elsewhere.

Dev squads can work, but are very "meh" Part of the reason is that the other options are so good. The predator is criminally undercoated. AV 14 land raiders are nearly impossible for some armies to deal with, and loaded with guns. Vindicators have the giant gun of doom. Thunderfires have a number of things going for them. So many other good options. And then the poor devastators. Like a tactical squad that can pay through the nose for extra heavy weapons. Ho hum.

When I field them, they rarely disappoint me, but they also never "Wow" me.

If you like infantry I would seriously suggest any other codex.
At low points you need to spend points efficiently to work well.
You seemed to have it more or less right, then you good advice already.

The vanilla codex can do many wonderful things, I am just not sure it is ready to do an infantry heavy list, excusing scout based and drop pods.

Was curious about others opinion of using Devs with fortifications, primarily the Imperial bastion with whichever extra weapon of choice. Gives up to 4 heavy bolters and either the quad gun or lascannon with 2 inside and 2 on top firing at the majority of the board.

Buy 5 tactical marines or combat squad them if you want gunmen for the heavy bolters.
Quad gun/lascannon maybe as well be armed by a scout sarg. Character is useful to get precision shots.

Dev, squads inside fortifications may be a good call. To get a cheap av14 shooting base and a good view of the battlefield.

Thanks for the advice guys,

I apologize if I am repeating myself or asking the same question twice with this response.

PRIMARY MISSION: The primary duty of this unit is to be long range anti armor/MC's, AV13 and weaker. I consider AV14 a whole different animal which should be addressed with meltas. Also I am focusing mainly on turns 1 and 2 of shooting, and at a range of 24"-48". Basically I want this unit to be a hitman unit that is able to reliably destroy or cripple any single big gun, piece of armor, MC, solo IC, or other important unit or transport in one or two turns. The rest of my army is set up to be able to handle whatever comes its way with a smattering of MM's, HB's, plasma, sniper scouts, etc. so I am not worried about them. Part of my tactical thinking is breaking the battle down into engagement ranges (long 30ish"+, med 12'-36", close 12"-) and I have the Med/Close covered so this unit needs to win the Long range fight without fail.
>---TL : DR = This unit needs to shoot 30" or further and there is no such thing as overkill.---<

I mathhammer'ed it out and against AV13 at range, 150-170pts of Devs (4xML/3xML,1xLC) has roughly equal chance to damage as 165pts of Pred (full on Annihilator w/ TL las and las sponsons). The Annihilator has a slightly better chance to instant kill due to the strength of the LC's, but the number of shots the Devs put out gives them a slightly more reliable chance to glance.
---Draw between the two.

Outside of the main duty of the unit (See above), the Devs are highly useful for anti infantry/MC/IC duties, whereas the Annihilator Pred is only effective against solo IC/MC's and fairly ineffective against infantry.
---Advantage, Devastators.

The Devs will have limited mobility but will be able to lock down a 48" circular zone (which I imagine is the better part of most game tables) from any enemy, and will be able to more easily take advantage of cover (techmarines are a high likelihood later down the road). The Annihilator can affect 48" of armor/MC's/solo IC's but not infantry or IC's in units, and will have a harder time getting cover saves, but will have a high degree of mobility.
---Advantage, I am too inexperienced to determine

My new question is how important is mobility to the primary mission of this unit (mentioned above)? At 1000pts or less it should be able to succeed or fail its primary mission by turn 3 and move to its secondary mission of all around utility. Also worth noting is that by increasing the Dev squad cost to 190pts I can add a razorback which could alleviate the mobility issue as well as provide extra cover, ranged fire support, and close assault deterrence.

If I deploy intelligently how important really is mobility to a unit that is supposed to pound the enemies heavy long range capabilities right off the bat and everything else from there is just extra gravy on the biscuits?

Yep, I was wrong.

Instead of trying to find anti-armor in heavy support for codex marines, go ironclad dreadnought in a drop pod. Then add another one. These two guys and my three thunderfire cannons tend to be a core element of my lists, and between the bikes, landspeeders, stormtalons and whatnot, it looks good and does very well.

If you really want cheap anti-tank, take bikes. A fast attack bike unit (or made into troops) with two melta guns and multi-melta attack bike, comes in at minimum with 185 points. Damn deadly, and fast.

Mobility is key because Heavy Support units can now score via Big Guns Never Tire and the enemy can deny LOS to these anti-tank units. Once this happens, a Predator can redeploy much faster (up to 18" if necessary) than Devs can, and AV13 is much harder to kill at range than T4 3+ bodies. AV13 is even harder to kill when it's in cover considering how easy it is to get cover now.

I know this is outside your peramiters but I am pointing this out in case you have not thought of it. I would not take preds or devs. I would for the same 170 or so points take a 5 man team of stern guard with meltas and combi meltas. they drop on turn one and destroy whatever vehicle you want no matter the armor very consistantly on turn 1 almost every time. At higher points I would field more but at low points if I had 160-170 points to spend and needed them to take out armor I would not rely on MLs to do it as their penitration chance is too small for there point cost.

5 man stern guard 125
drop pod 35
2 meltas 5
3 combi meltas 15

total 175.

This gives 5 melta shots into what ever vehicle at melta range most of the time. after that the unit harrases the oponent with special ammo and melts, because the opponent can not have meltas running around in his back field for very long, he tends to devert forces to deal with them and this delays his plans very well. Typically they die turn 2-3 but on turn 1 they take out whatever needed to be hit imidiately and if the oponent fails to kill them the next turn they potintially take out other targets as well.

Red

I may be in the minority here, but I LOVE devs with 4 missile launchers. 8 man with 4 missile launchers is 198 points, which is a steel. I take two squads with 4 missile launchers each, and at least 8 man (at 1500 points up, and I then its usually one squad of 9 and one of 10.) At 1000 points, I'd take one or two squads, 4 missile launchers, and as meany meetshields as you can take without compromising the rest of your force.

UltraTacSgt wrote:How do you think 6th Edition has affected the heavy support options available to Codex Compliant Space Marines.

I am a new player and I plan to run an infantry based list (I just prefer infantry) in the 1000pts and under range (750-1000). I really like Devastators and it seems like the inability to be stunned/shaken/immobilized is an advantage, however their cost is nigh on ridiculous (seems like GW reeeaaaaally wanted people to have to buy expensive armor models). A 10 man Dev squad with 2xML/2xPC or 4xML is 250pts and 230pts respectively; and for those points you are looking at two Preds/Vindis/Dreads at the least, 3-4 MM land speeders. That isn't even mentioning that I can give ML's/PC's/LC's/MM's to my Tacs and Sternguard for cheaper and let them take heavy weapon duties.

It seems that the hull points change has made vehicles it harder to get lucky one hit kills on vehicles, but made it easier to focus fire them down with more mediocre anti armor weapons.

So the question is....Even with my preference for infantry and therefore Devastators, do the benefits (points cost and utility) of armored options (preds/vindis/speeders/dreads) stack up enough to make Devastators a bad choice? What are the pros and cons of infantry based heavy weapons vs armor based heavy weapons.

Please keep in mind this is in reference to battles of 1000pts or less, with an eye to the future of building up to 1500pts.

I really think even with the vehicle rule changes, nothing beats a good old fashioned las pred. as most vehicles have about 3 hull points, you can take out a vehicle before it has a chance to shoot you with one of those babies, and for only slightly more than a 5 man devastator squad with 1 las cannon.
Also the stormtalon can take a twin linked las cannon and twin linked auto cannon, which could destroy some light armour and damage some heavy armor.