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So this is basically a mech army only its with Platoons. I fooled around with it in 5th, and liked it since i could deploy 8+ chimeras in DoW.

HQ
CCS 4x Melta Chimera ML/HB

Troops
Platoon
PCS 4x Melta Chimera ML/HB
PIS Plasma Gun Chimera ML/HB
PIS Plasma Gun Chimera ML/HB
PIS Flamer Chimera ML/HB

Platoon
PCS 4x Melta Chimera ML/HB
PIS Plasma Gun Chimera ML/HB
PIS Plasma Gun Chimera ML/HB
PIS Flamer Chimera ML/HB

Fast Attack
Vendetta
Vendetta

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Executioner

Use Veterans instead of Platoons. a 60-75pt squad does not belong in a 55 point transport. If you take a two or three to one ratio of Plasma to Melta vets, you will be very happy.

I don't particularly like the Chimer-vets. For one its too elite. An army with only six (at most) scoring units does not have the IG image, its more of a Space Marine. 2. I get more chimeras with this list. 3. I like armored fists squads. I think chimera-vets are extremely unfluffy.

If fluff is your goal, this is fine; but it won't be very competitive. A lot of kill points, and easily picked apart troops choices will leave you hard-pressed to hold objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider the firepower you'll be facing at 1850 points, and try to convince yourself to field at least 2 Chimeravet squads. Even as far as fluff goes, surely your regiment has SOME veterans. Unless it has the attrition rate of DKoK

I guess a couple of vets would be acceptable I hadn't thought that there might be a few veteran squads. As for kill points only 1/6 is a killpoint game so I'm not too worried about them. I ran the above list in 5th and won most games, and a few times in sixth. Going to post a new list soon, with the added vets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Revised list, with vet assistance, thanks to TheCaptain's input.

HQ
CCS, 4x Melta Chimera ML/HB

Troops
Platoon
PCS 4x Melta, Chimera ML/HB
PIS Melta Chimera ML/HB
PIS Melta Chimera ML/HB
PIS Melta Chimera HL/HB
PIS Melta Chimera ML/HB

Veteran Squad 3x Plasma Chimera ML/HB
Veteran Squad 3x Plasma Chimera ML/HB

Fast Attack
Vendetta
Vendetta

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Executioner

Much move competitive. Still quite scary for KP's, but the Plasmavets are such an excellent addition.

TheCaptain wrote:If fluff is your goal, this is fine; but it won't be very competitive. A lot of kill points, and easily picked apart troops choices will leave you hard-pressed to hold objectives.

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand this. How are 10 Veterans in a chimera not as easily picked apart as 10 guardsman in a chimera, do you get to use your ballistic skill to dodge shooting attacks in 6th edition now?

If a transport moves more than cruising speed (6" for a Chimera, right) they can only fire snap shots. Snap shots make you BS 1 right? If he just wanted BS 1 snap shots fired from a chimera, couldn't he just save the points and maybe get a special weapons squad at half the cost?

10 Guardsmen cannot take 3 plasmaguns, or any of the doctrines to give them a chance at holding. They are merely 10 guardsmen.

Yes, but 6 guardsmen can!

On another note:
2 plasma guns and a doctrine is more than enough to buy another 10 guardsmen.

20 guardsmen is remarkably less killy than 10 BS4 guardsmen with plasma. It's math. 6th edition is the edition of shooting; and more killy means more survivable.

TheCaptain wrote:20 guardsmen is remarkably less killy than 10 BS4 guardsmen with plasma. It's math. 6th edition is the edition of shooting; and more killy means more survivable.

When you brought that up I was curious, so I did the math.


20 Guardsmen, 2 Plasma Guns firing at Guardsmen (T3, 5+):
-Standard Shot: 3.83 wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 6.83 wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 9 Wounds

10 Veterans, 3 Plasma Guns firing at Guardsmen (T3, 5+)s:
-Standard Shot 3.23 wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 4.79 Wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 6.34 Wounds

So as you can see by the math, the Veterans clearly are the VASTLY superior shooting...wait, what? Oh, they're actually WORSE? Hmm...maybe they're better against Space Marines right? Yeah, that's why we brought all of that Plasma! Okay, let's go!

20 Guardsmen, 2 Plasma Guns firing at Space Majeen (T4, 3+):
-Standard Shot: 1.83 wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 2.83 wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 3 Wounds

10 Veterans, 3 Plasma Guns firing at Guardsmen (T4, 3+):
-Standard Shot 2.19 wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 2.71 Wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 3.23 Wounds

Rounding to the nearest whole number (because you can't almost kill a dude), against space marines the two units are identical in performance in terms of killy ability. Unless the space marines are in cover since these numbers are based on the target not getting a save against the plasma.

RxGhost wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:20 guardsmen is remarkably less killy than 10 BS4 guardsmen with plasma. It's math. 6th edition is the edition of shooting; and more killy means more survivable.

When you brought that up I was curious, so I did the math.


20 Guardsmen, 2 Plasma Guns firing at Guardsmen (T3, 5+):
-Standard Shot: 3.83 wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 6.83 wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 9 Wounds

10 Veterans, 3 Plasma Guns firing at Guardsmen (T3, 5+)s:
-Standard Shot 3.23 wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 4.79 Wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 6.34 Wounds

So as you can see by the math, the Veterans clearly are the VASTLY superior shooting...wait, what? Oh, they're actually WORSE? Hmm...maybe they're better against Space Marines right? Yeah, that's why we brought all of that Plasma! Okay, let's go!

20 Guardsmen, 2 Plasma Guns firing at Space Majeen (T4, 3+):
-Standard Shot: 1.83 wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 2.83 wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 3 Wounds

10 Veterans, 3 Plasma Guns firing at Guardsmen (T4, 3+):
-Standard Shot 2.19 wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 2.71 Wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 3.23 Wounds

Rounding to the nearest whole number (because you can't almost kill a dude), against space marines the two units are identical in performance in terms of killy ability. Unless the space marines are in cover since these numbers are based on the target not getting a save against the plasma.

The real advantage to Vets is that you have to paint less models.

I could understand them being more survivable if you actually bought them Camo Cloaks or Carapace but unupgraded not so much as you've shown.

AP2 on Plasma is nice but really it's about glancing AV12 which is the reason to prefer PlasVets not their killing ability vs infantry.

except a mechanized 20man guardsmen with 2 plasmas costs 5 points more, gives up twice the killpoints, can threaten terminators and transports significantly less (two less S7AP2 shots at half-range), and costs twice as much cash. Sorry, but a mechanized platoon is crap. Well, not crap, but not as good. Their plasma shots hit 16% less often, which is no fun either.

Manipulating math in your favor looks good, but proven playtesting shows it. There's a reason noone runs mechanized platoons. Dare you to do the math on each squad against AV10, AV12, and Sv2+
Plasmavets have more targets that they are more effective against. Therein lies their sexy.

I /really/ would like to see how you came up with that math...

BS 4 vs BS 3 with an extra 2 special weapons is the key

You have 3 catagories... 1 (24" range), 2 (Rapid Fire range and FRFSRF at 24"), and 3 shots (FRFSRF at12")

We will assume that the Sarge for both has a pistol+CCW. Marines are the standard of this game, so that should be what you test against... T 4, 3+. I took into account that plasma did not allow an armor save. I was generous and counting plasma wounding 80 percent.

6 Vets 1: 3.95 hits, 1.3 wounds, .4 unsaved
3 Vet Plasma 1: 1.98 hits, 1.5 wound, 1.5 unsaved
1.9 killed

8 Platoon 1: 4 hits, 1.3 wounds, .4 unsaved
1 Plasma 1: .50 hit, .8 wound, .8 unsaved
1.2 killed

6 Vets 2: 7.9 hits, 2.6 wounds, .8 wounds
3 Vet Plasma 2: 3.9 hits, 3.2 wounds, 3.2 unsaved
4 kills

8 Platoon 2: 8 hits, 2.64 wounds, . 8 unsaved
1 Plasma 2: 1 hit, .8 wound, .8 unsaved
1.6 kills

(only lasguns, use Plasma 2 for plasma wounds)
6 Vets 3: 11.88 hits, 3.9 wounds, 1.2 unsaved
4.2 kills (counting plasma)

8 Platoon 3: 12 hits, 3.9 wounds, 1.3 unsaved
2.1 kills (counting plasma)


Note I counted that single plasma shot as a hit, and that is at 50% at BS 3. You miss with that and Vets out-kill a 10 man platoon 2 to 1 every time, based heavily on the plasma. But if you notice, the Vets with that better BS skill /EQUAL/ a platoon for number of hits with lasguns, so against weaker foes (IG), the Vet lasguns are /just as good/ as a platoon with number of hits. This is why your math is terribly flawed.

it looks nice, but in practice las guns are only good at killing las guns. RxGhost seems to be manipulating the numbers by tossing in FRFSRF (he clearly posted it). i think its safe to say that this order is overwhelming beneficial to the standard squads. i think that will account of the discrepancy between the two calculations. at least it did for me.

i think most would agree that platoons are better to run on foot than vets. this makes the FRFSRF viable, but i feel we are avoiding the real question. the OP wants to run mech. lets see what the numbers say if run from inside chimeras?

I did make a few errors, I didn't count that the Plasma Gun can fire twice at 12" and I had foolishly counted the Sargent's las pistol as a las gun...though I had made these errors for both sets of guardsmen. Also, I should have labeled it a little better so you could see who was shooting what.

20 Guardsmen, 16 Lasguns, 2 Las Pistols & 2 Plasma Guns firing at Guardsmen (T3, 5+):
-24" Range: 3.5 wounds
-12" Range: 7.33 Wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 6.17 wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 10 Wounds

10 Veterans, 6 Lasguns, 1 Las Pistol 3 Plasma Guns firing at Guardsmen (T3, 5+)s:
-24" Range: 3.01 Wounds
-12" Range: 6.46 Wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 4.34 Wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 7.57 Wounds

20 Guardsmen, 16 Lasguns, 2 Las Pistols & 2 Plasma Guns firing at Space Majeens (T4, 3+):
-24" Range: 1.72 wounds
-12" Range: 3.56 Wounds
-FRFSRF 24": 2.61 wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 4.44 Wounds

10 Veterans, 6 Lasguns, 1 Las Pistol & 3 Plasma Guns firing at Space Marjeens (T4, 3+):
-24" Range: 2.12 wounds
-12" Range: 4.39
-FRFSRF 24": 2.57 Wounds
-FRFSRF 12": 4.76 Wounds

I know you guys might not like to see this because it is apparently rocking your world, but this is how it shakes out.

I chose the squad comps based on units he was using & point selection. This is also directly related to TheCaptain's bald-faced lie of:

TheCaptain wrote:20 guardsmen is remarkably less killy than 10 BS4 guardsmen with plasma. It's math. 6th edition is the edition of shooting; and more killy means more survivable.

It is quite obvious that "10 BS4 guardsmen with plasma" (I think he meant to say Veteran) are not, in point of fact, "remarkably less killy".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since I already had the calculations punched in, I ran the Chimera embarked versions; the chimera's damage is omitted since it wouldn't be different.

Guardsmen in Chimera (4 Lasgun, 1 Plasma Gun) vs. Guardmen (T3, 5+)
24": 1.08
12": 2.16
Cruising Speed 24": .36
Cruising Speed 12": .72

Veteran in Chimera (2 Lasgun, 3 Plasma Gun) vs. Guardmen (T3, 5+)
24": 2.11
12": 4.22
Cruising Speed 24": .53
Cruising Speed 12": 1.05

Special Weapons Team in Chimera (2 Lasgun, 3 Plasma Gun) vs. Guardmen (T3, 5+)
24": 1.58
12": 3.16
Cruising Speed 24": .52
Cruising Speed 12": 1.05

Guardsmen in Chimera (4 Lasgun, 1 Plasma Gun) vs. Marine (T4, 3+)
24": .63
12": 1.3
Cruising Speed 24": .21
Cruising Speed 12": .43

Veteran in Chimera (2 Lasgun, 3 Plasma Gun) vs. Marine (T4, 3+)
24": 1.81
12": 3.63
Cruising Speed 24": .45
Cruising Speed 12": .91

Special Weapons Team in Chimera (2 Lasgun, 3 Plasma Gun) vs. Marine (T4, 3+)
24": 1.36
12": 2.72
Cruising Speed 24": .45
Cruising Speed 12": .91

Also, since I think this is important information:

Guardsman Squad w/Plasma Gun & Chimera: 120pts
Veteran Squad w/3 Plasma Gun & Chimera: 170pts
Special Weapons w/3 Plasma Gun & Chimera: 135pts

If you're that convinced BS3 is better than BS4, go right ahead and field them.

I don't need convincing here, I don't have a horse in this race; I'm just getting the data out there so he can make an informed decision and you are muddying the waters with lies...of mud? I don't know where I'm going with this.

Objectively, of course BS4 is better than BS3 but that's not how this works. You have to think of how to use the units and how many points everything costs and what fits into where and how many toys do I own that I can physically put on a table.

TheCaptain wrote:except a mechanized 20man guardsmen with 2 plasmas costs 5 points more, gives up twice the killpoints, can threaten terminators and transports significantly less (two less S7AP2 shots at half-range), and costs twice as much cash. Sorry, but a mechanized platoon is crap. Well, not crap, but not as good. Their plasma shots hit 16% less often, which is no fun either.

Manipulating math in your favor looks good, but proven playtesting shows it. There's a reason noone runs mechanized platoons. Dare you to do the math on each squad against AV10, AV12, and Sv2+
Plasmavets have more targets that they are more effective against. Therein lies their sexy.

Refer to the above.

RxGhost wrote:I don't need convincing here, I don't have a horse in this race; I'm just getting the data out there so he can make an informed decision and you are muddying the waters with lies...of mud? I don't know where I'm going with this.

Objectively, of course BS4 is better than BS3 but that's not how this works. You have to think of how to use the units and how many points everything costs and what fits into where and how many toys do I own that I can physically put on a table.

Your neglecting to acknowledge their effectiveness against a broader range of targets is the mud here, my friend.

Let me point out I have won most of the games I've use Armored Fists (the OP list) and it was in 5th edtion where KP's where 1/3 of the missions played. In 6th I've played two games with the armored fists, and won 1 and drew the other. BS 3 isn't as big a handicap as your making it out to be TheCaptain. BS 4 is diffidently nicer, but you can win with BS3. I find having all BS4 vets in chimeras to be umfluffy which is why I'd rather have armored fists, but would place a couple of vets in there, as represented by my last list.

And Rob I have over 120 guardsmen plus officers and special weapons painted to at least tabletop quality. So paintings not an issue.

Oh, I agree you can win with BS 3 too, but the BS3 way to win is through volume of shots because you miss 50% of the time and have to pound through saves with poor AP weapons.

Sure, each Chimera is 6 shots (if your not moving), but I would still consider swapping out the HBs for heavy Flamers for attacking Chimeras. I would even consider a specialist squad to throw inside of your Vendettas so you can drop them off to claim objectives unless they are dedicated gunboats. Remember that your troops are not scorning as long as they are in a vehicle (pg 123 BRB). Heck, you can't even contest with your Chimeras as they fall under the exception of troops in a transport. Just keep in mind that to win a objective match, you /have to get out of the chimera/.

The new glancing blow rules... I guess I need further play testing with them, as I can see it make a vehicle last longer (no more lucky wrecks by a single plasma pistol shot), but concentrated fire will kill it... your goal is to overwhelm them with vehicles and I can see an list work because you can soak up the two+ Chimeras getting blown up each turn. But I see it work better as an attacking list. If your doing a camping list (parking lot), I would suggest ACs/HBs in your platoons to add into the Str 5+ hail of bullets. I feel ACs alone will upgrade your firepower and give you more punch against tougher opponenets (MCs, DPs, Ork warbosses on bikes) that the Str 5 will still have a hard time effecting. It also gives you light AV punch that your otherwise lacking at range. I still hold Marines as the bar to beat, and this list just has such a hard time getting through armor saves with the shots that do hit. Only good thing about your list is your at least wounding consistantly.