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This came up at our FLGS and I disagree with the idea on several levels. I rarely post in this forum but I wanted to get some feedback on this particular rules query before making my argument further at our FLGS.

P. 80 under ZOOM

"If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of 56""

The argument is being made that the passage specifically state exact distances for each speed, not up too as per other rules. So what's the call? Can they only move 18" exactly and 36" exactly or can I move my flyer 18-36"?

I think the idea here (and in fact how the rule should be read) is that they work just like any other vehicle.

Their Combat Speed is >0" up to 18"
Their Cruising Speed is >18" up to 36"

But with the proviso that if they do not move a minimum of 18" when zooming, they crash.

So what this in effect means is that their Combat speed is fixed at 18" But their Cruising Speed is >18" to 36"

It's actually quite hard to see how a careful reader of the rule could reach any other conclusion, but I've found a few rules in 6th are capable of misinterpretation if taken in on a quick glance.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:I think the idea here (and in fact how the rule should be read) is that they work just like any other vehicle.

Their Combat Speed is >0" up to 18"
Their Cruising Speed is >18" up to 36"

But with the proviso that if they do not move a minimum of 18" when zooming, they crash.

So what this in effect means is that their Combat speed is fixed at 18" But their Cruising Speed is >18" to 36"

I agree but there is nothing in the actual rules to support that unfortunately. Combine that with the "knee-jerk flyers are op" reactions going around and using this as a way to nerf the power of flyers has become irresistible to many.

Hard to say. I personally think the intent is for them to have a variable speed, but it was badly written. I could easily be proved wrong on that with the right (wrong) FAQ, however.

In the rules it lists 18" for Combat and 36" for Cruising in the flyer section, yet the speed listed in the summary section is (18-36") not (18" or 36"). If it's variable, how do you define the break point between the two speeds if you get velocity locked? Another reason it seems a little wonky is that you have a very clearly variable flat out speed for flyers: 12-24" (or 18-36" if supersonic.)

Right now, by RAW I'd have to say it's locked to either speed. I can't see any other consistant way to play it without just pulling a number out of your butt as the break point between combat and cruising speeds. Hopefully it will be addressed in a FAQ.

Actually, having followed my own advice and read carefully, I see the issue, it's the only movement where 'up to' is not used for Cruising Speed. You can see why they didn't use up to for Combat Speed, mind.

However, given universal pre-measuring and the limited turn arc of fliers, coupled with the fact that a fliers' base can't move withing 1" of an enemy model, if the rule is in fact 18" or 36" then it will be rather easy for horde armies to wreck fliers simply by model placement.

Its RAW that the Flier can go 18 or 36. However i See it as RAI that its 18-36. It makes more sense that way.

I think Blood and Slaughter has the right of it for the intention of the rule. Sadly, GW hires crack-addicted baboons to proof-read and edit their books.

Pg.71 "Vehicle Movement":
Combat Speed is anything bigger than 0" and up to 6"
Cruising Speed is anything bigger than 6" and up to 12"

Pg.80 "Zooming"
Change Combat Speed to 18"
Change Cruising Speed to 36"
Aditionaly if ti moves move less than 18" it dies.

Zooming isn't it's own movement rule, it modifies the normal vehicle movement rules, if zooming worked in a vacuum then we'd have no way to legally move flyers as we won't have a definition of Combat Speed and Cruising Speed.

I can see it both ways.

To me it makes sense that Combat Speed is locked at 18" and Cruising Speed is variable at >18" to 36". However there's the fact that when immobilised a zooming flier must continue to move at Combat or Cruising Speed. that makes no sense if Cruising Speed is in fact variable. as common sense would otherwise suggest. Then again, if velocities are fixed at 18 and 36, why is Flat Outing variable?

FAQ (either way) would seem highly desireable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do agree that RAW it's 18" or 36" with nothing in between

It's easy.

Pg 425 of the rulebook. under movement phase summary:

"Flyer (Zoom mode) 18"-36" (Limited to a single 90degree pivot at the start of its move)

18" - 36" means between 18" and 36", not 18" OR 36".

Ah! thankyou, I knew I'd seen that somewhere. I now revert to my original position.

A word of warning: Some of the summaries contradict actual rules. For example, for exploding vehicles summary states that "passengers must disembark 3 inches" whereas actual rules text is quite different.

Luide wrote:A word of warning: Some of the summaries contradict actual rules. For example, for exploding vehicles summary states that "passengers must disembark 3 inches" whereas actual rules text is quite different.

Contradict? Not really, just what it is - a summary In the case of the explodes results "within 3" of the vehicle, as you place the models where the vehicle used to be, which should be within 3" of where it used to be, so it's not actually wrong, just poorly worded hehe

In this case with flyer movement though, its pretty clear.

I agree with Tjolle79, but I'd like to throw another interpretation (my FLGS' one) into this discussion:

A Flyer must Zoom on from Reserve @ 18" OR 36", after that it can move anywhere between them. When velocity is locked, it is whichever it was closest to in it's last movement phase, so 18.1"-26.9" = locked at 18", >27" = locked at 36".

That's how my FLGS plays the rules

HoverBoy wrote:Pg.71 "Vehicle Movement":
Combat Speed is anything bigger than 0" and up to 6"
Cruising Speed is anything bigger than 6" and up to 12"

Pg.80 "Zooming"
Change Combat Speed to 18"
Change Cruising Speed to 36"
Aditionaly if ti moves move less than 18" it dies.

Zooming isn't it's own movement rule, it modifies the normal vehicle movement rules, if zooming worked in a vacuum then we'd have no way to legally move flyers as we won't have a definition of Combat Speed and Cruising Speed.

This. People need to stop trying to find loopholes that aren't there. You only HAVE to move a certain distance if the rules explicitly state that you have to, hence why the rules say that a flyer has to move at least 18". There is no such caveat for 36".

It's 18 or 36. There's nothing in between. The rulebook states "up to" in every single other occurrence of movement.

DarknessEternal wrote:It's 18 or 36. There's nothing in between. The rulebook states "up to" in every single other occurrence of movement.

The GW Necron FAQ Ruling for Invasion beams seems to disagree with you. As it implies moving 24 inches as an option. It could be read the way you state I suppose, but then why make mention of 24".

Luide wrote:A word of warning: Some of the summaries contradict actual rules. For example, for exploding vehicles summary states that "passengers must disembark 3 inches" whereas actual rules text is quite different.

?? No, it says they disembark but are limited to a 3" move, same as wrecked but with the addition of the hits taken.

While I agree that the summary and the rule are worded differently, it does still operate the same and as it should.

Kevin949 wrote:

Luide wrote:A word of warning: Some of the summaries contradict actual rules. For example, for exploding vehicles summary states that "passengers must disembark 3 inches" whereas actual rules text is quite different.

?? No, it says they disembark but are limited to a 3" move, same as wrecked but with the addition of the hits taken.

While I agree that the summary and the rule are worded differently, it does still operate the same and as it should.

In fairness the rule says 'Surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be', which is quite different to the summary's 'must disembark but are limited to a 3" move'

I see no special reason to give precedence to the narrative rules over the summary but in both cases (flyer Zooming moves and transport Explodes results), only one -- or neither -- can be correct.

It says it is locked velocity, so if you only moved 18 and it was immobilized then it would not be able to go faster than 18. However if it went 18.1 to 36 then it could move any of those speeds in any turn as they are all considered cruising speed. It specifies between the two categories not the exact amount. Also the summaries are reminders of the rules from the main section, and as someone pointed out it is just modifying the values for cruising speed and combat speed.

Leth wrote:It says it is locked velocity, so if you only moved 18 and it was immobilized then it would not be able to go faster than 18. However if it went 18.1 to 36 then it could move any of those speeds in any turn as they are all considered cruising speed. It specifies between the two categories not the exact amount. Also the summaries are reminders of the rules from the main section, and as someone pointed out it is just modifying the values for cruising speed and combat speed.

Yeah, that's what I'd assume if the 18"/>18"-36" rule is correct. it's not quite as daft as I first thought as it would limit you to a fixed 18" if you were immobilised at combat speed (though were you immobilised at cruising speed there'd be hardly any effect at all, which would be a bit odd perhaps).

Yes, the Locked Speed rule is pointless if "up to 36" inches exists, which is a good indicator that it does not.

DarknessEternal wrote:Yes, the Locked Speed rule is pointless if "up to 36" inches exists, which is a good indicator that it does not.

Sorry I feel particularly dense today and I am not following your train of thought. Could you explain?

The way I understand "locked" is that you have to move at the same speed. Thus if you went 24" and then get immobilized, then you have to continue moving at 24".

jy2 wrote:The way I understand "locked" is that you have to move at the same speed. Thus if you went 24" and then get immobilized, then you have to continue moving at 24".

That is the way I understand it too. You are locked at the previous turn's movement rate whatever that may be.

Kevlar wrote:

jy2 wrote:The way I understand "locked" is that you have to move at the same speed. Thus if you went 24" and then get immobilized, then you have to continue moving at 24".

That is the way I understand it too. You are locked at the previous turn's movement rate whatever that may be.

Which means if you moved 23.87", you have to move 23.87" again

Necron flyers can move 24", as was pointed out....

Find an example where it gives a movement distance that states an absolute value and means "up to" that value without saying "up to" then.

DarknessEternal wrote:Find an example where it gives a movement distance that states an absolute value and means "up to" that value without saying "up to" then.

Moving Walkers p. 84

'They move 6" in the Movement phase.'

Note for true pedants this is an absolute. Not they may move 6" but they do. so literally your walkers must always move 6" every movement phase.

Of course the end of the sentence says 'just as infantry can' but one could argue that merely applies to the Run and charge phrases as the Movement phrase is an absolute. And also to be fair it sas immediately above that they move using the rules for infantry. Yet the 'They move 6" in the Movement phase' is still an absolute instruction which surely overrides any previous general instruction.

DarknessEternal wrote:Find an example where it gives a movement distance that states an absolute value and means "up to" that value without saying "up to" then.

All moveent is defined as "up to" as a general rule. So you would need a specific rule stating that this "up to" is excluded.