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I wrote an article on the merits of a Tyrant Guard unit joined by a swooping Flying Hive Tyrant. See below...

http://knighthammer40k.blogspot.com/2012/07/doom-doom-flyrant-guard.html

I call it the Flyrant Guard!

What does this have to do with rules?

nice, but the unit is still hit on its normal numbers, and not on 6's.

This is because the flyer is a member of the unit, and the unit is not swooping.

Nice try though.

Isn't this all predicated on there being nothing in front of the guard to slow them down? Are you taking into consideration difficult terrain that may slow the guys on foot down?

Seems like a perfectly acceptable tactic to me.

Until i read the post above :(

"nice, but the unit is still hit on its normal numbers, and not on 6's.

This is because the flyer is a member of the unit, and the unit is not swooping.

Nice try though".

DeathReaper wrote:nice, but the unit is still hit on its normal numbers, and not on 6's.

This is because the flyer is a member of the unit, and the unit is not swooping.

Nice try though.

Note that Im not sure that it would work, but for the sake of friendly discussion, so long as the Flyrant is in front, it would be the model being hit, and therefore must be targeted on 6s. Of course, if you can manuevre and shoot with the closest model being a Tyrant Guard, then you would roll to hit normally. Thats the arguement I can see being made, of course there are arguements both ways, just like the arguement that Epidemius' Aura of Decay cant target allied grots and therefore cant add any benefit to its tally.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Isn't this all predicated on there being nothing in front of the guard to slow them down? Are you taking into consideration difficult terrain that may slow the guys on foot down?

Well, yes. Open terrain does help this a lot. Difficult terrain makes this much, much harder to do...

jifel wrote:Note that Im not sure that it would work, but for the sake of friendly discussion, so long as the Flyrant is in front, it would be the model being hit,

Incorrect. The tyrant is the model that must be assigned wounds and roll saves first, but the Unit is the target of the shooting, not the tyrant.

To the OP, great! You wrote an article generating traffic on another site...


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And wouldn't the tyrant have to move at the rate of the slowest models, ie the guards?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:And wouldn't the tyrant have to move at the rate of the slowest models, ie the guards?

In theory - no, check "Different Movement Distances Within A Unit" on page 10. In practice - yes if you want to keep coherency.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:To the OP, great! You wrote an article generating traffic on another site...


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And wouldn't the tyrant have to move at the rate of the slowest models, ie the guards?

Geez, its an honest rule question. And no the Tyrant actually doesnt have to move at the rate of the slowest model, thats from 5th.

And DeathReaper: What youre saying makes sense, and is the only potential arguement that I can see (there may be more) against this working. You definately have a legitamate point, Im just not sure how it works as theres 0 precedent for this that I've seen.

Well, I don't think the Guard could maintain coherency. they have a make move of 6" and a swooping flyrant has to move at least 18". Maybe if they run in the shooting phase, it coudl help of set the movement problem. Second problem, as mentioned is that the unit is the target not the flier.

2 questions on if this can be done would be, can a FMC join a non-FMC unit? Second, does a FMC confer the Swoop special rules on the Unit joins or does it get grounded by the unit? (I can just see flying TG)

This doesn't work; but it also doesn't not-work.

IOW it just breaks the game. there are no rules covering what happens when you need two different 'to hit' rolls.

You could make the rule issue even more problematic by only have one guard. (No majority....)

OTOH, even if it does work, as soon as the TGuard didn't run far enough, the Flyrant would be forced to move <12", and would be dead. (You decide swoop before move and run)

1. Flying MCs must only move 12".
2. Yes, I think if Tyrant Guard could take Wings... thatd be freaking amazing. Or if Tyrants could join shrikes.


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coredump wrote:This doesn't work; but it also doesn't not-work.

IOW it just breaks the game. there are no rules covering what happens when you need two different 'to hit' rolls.

You could make the rule issue even more problematic by only have one guard. (No majority....)

OTOH, even if it does work, as soon as the TGuard didn't run far enough, the Flyrant would be forced to move <12", and would be dead. (You decide swoop before move and run)

It wouldnt be dead, you could premeasure, and if there wasnt going to be a way to maintain coherency you could just glide for a turn. However, it is possible to maintain coherency with a FMC with three Terminator sized models, I tested the measuring out myself on open terrain. (Example in the link)

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
And wouldn't the tyrant have to move at the rate of the slowest models, ie the guards?

^ This.

Dozer Blades wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
And wouldn't the tyrant have to move at the rate of the slowest models, ie the guards?

^ This.

Isn't a restriction in 6th.

When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see opposite).

It is my belief that the Tyrant would be forced to remain within coherency, therefore being forced to glide, and as It is now a JMC it must either hop 6" or walk.

Deadshot wrote:It is my belief that the Tyrant would be forced to remain within coherency, therefore being forced to glide, and as It is now a JMC it must either hop 6" or walk.

The rules of swooping say that he must move 12". He can move 12" and retain coherency, no question. In 6th edition there are NO rules saying a unit moves at the speed of its slowest model. It just must retain coherency, which it can do, as shown in my illustrated example.

In my mind, the question isnt "can he join the guard and move?" He can. However, the question is, "How does this partially swooping unit interact with the shooting and assaulting rules?"

FOr shooting - it doesnt. the tyrant joins as an IC, and therefore becomes a normal member of the unit. thus, when you shoot at the unit you are NOT shooting at a swooping MC, but a unit on foot.

Similarly with assault. You can assault the tyrant guard, and laugh as the MC isnt able to attack back...

nosferatu1001 wrote:FOr shooting - it doesnt. the tyrant joins as an IC, and therefore becomes a normal member of the unit. thus, when you shoot at the unit you are NOT shooting at a swooping MC, but a unit on foot.

Similarly with assault. You can assault the tyrant guard, and laugh as the MC isnt able to attack back...

Hm, while a point can be made for shooting, for assault I believe that the Flyrant would definately strike back. The rules disallow assaulting him. If you manage to do it anyways, he can strike back, nothing disallows that.

in codex tyranids it states that if the hive tyrants is shot at, the tyrant guard are his living shield they take the wounds for it,, and codex rules take precedence over brb so youd have to kill all the guard before you can shoot at the swooping hive tyrant. well thats what i think anyway.. plus i think mixing a swooping flying mc with a foot slogging unit is a bit cheeky, why would the hive tyrant want a unit slowing it down when it can be diving n slicing heads


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some people play this game only to exploit written down rules and grey areas... it is a game, the rules are set as a guideline your imagination and gaming group are what makes the games good.. And some of the players on here i just wouldnt wage war against. its not about winning or f**cking up your opponent with as many grey areas and dodgy tactics its about having fun. flying monstrous creatures when swooping cannot get involved in assault they have to swith to gliding so your tyrant wouldnt be involved in the combat at all. its a grey area which gw are good at,

gingermist wrote:in codex tyranids it states that if the hive tyrants is shot at, the tyrant guard are his living shield they take the wounds for it,, and codex rules take precedence over brb so youd have to kill all the guard before you can shoot at the swooping hive tyrant. well thats what i think anyway.. plus i think mixing a swooping flying mc with a foot slogging unit is a bit cheeky, why would the hive tyrant want a unit slowing it down when it can be diving n slicing heads


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some people play this game only to exploit written down rules and grey areas... it is a game, the rules are set as a guideline your imagination and gaming group are what makes the games good.. And some of the players on here i just wouldnt wage war against. its not about winning or f**cking up your opponent with as many grey areas and dodgy tactics its about having fun. flying monstrous creatures when swooping cannot get involved in assault they have to swith to gliding so your tyrant wouldnt be involved in the combat at all. its a grey area which gw are good at,

Im not asking this so I can go club a baby seal, Im curious as to how it works. I wouldnt use it unless challenged to a cheese match against Epidemius with Grots or something like that.

The living shield rule just lets the hive tyrant join the tyrant guard like an IC. Nothing more nothing less. And yes you can move the tyrant at a different speed but unless you had the guard lined up before the movement good luck keeping coherency. As said before the unit did not swoop so the unit does not need skyfire to be shot. admittedly only having to move 12 when swooping makes this easier then you would think but unless the guard get shoot dead you would still be shooting normally. Now it would make the tyrant immune to blast weapons still.

well say that the Flyrant is swooping and the tyrant guard are hit by a blast weapon, say str 6 ap 3, roll to hit the guard as normal, scatter as normal (what happens if it scatters onto the swooping Flyrant? im not sure.) then roll to wound, needing a 4 of course, then depending on the direction of the shot, the Flyrant would take his save at a 2+ if you gave him armoured shell or his 4+ cover save from Jink.


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regardless of the shot, depending on where the shot is coming from of course, the wounds would be allocated to the Flyrant if he/she is the closest model to the unit firing (using that method of moving it would be VERY easy to do.)


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and i just realized that you cant take armored shell and wings at the same time. i get my own dumbass award ^_^

What cheese with Epidemius and Grots?

Kiredor wrote:What cheese with Epidemius and Grots?

My guess is that you run Epidemius along with cheap grots, and target them intentionally to up your tallyman count since they are counted as an enemy army. So pretty soon all your Nurgle dudes will ignore armor saves and other buffs. But I don't have the Allies rules in front of me so that may be wrong.

Ah, that would be the other

I was thinking somebody was considering the tallyman rule to effect the grots, which is silly. (and wrong).

Also with the allies rules you can never target your ally models, if they are not BB, so you cant kill your own guys.

If the opponent had Nurgle guys, you could feed your grots to them i guess.

Ludovic wrote:

Kiredor wrote:What cheese with Epidemius and Grots?

My guess is that you run Epidemius along with cheap grots, and target them intentionally to up your tallyman count since they are counted as an enemy army. So pretty soon all your Nurgle dudes will ignore armor saves and other buffs. But I don't have the Allies rules in front of me so that may be wrong.

Yes, exactly. By turn 2 every nurgle model has 3+ poison, power weapons, and 3+ Feel no pain. Its brutal.

White Ninja wrote:The living shield rule just lets the hive tyrant join the tyrant guard like an IC. Nothing more nothing less. And yes you can move the tyrant at a different speed but unless you had the guard lined up before the movement good luck keeping coherency. As said before the unit did not swoop so the unit does not need skyfire to be shot. admittedly only having to move 12 when swooping makes this easier then you would think but unless the guard get shoot dead you would still be shooting normally. Now it would make the tyrant immune to blast weapons still.

Its not hard to maintain coherency. See link in my original post for example with pictures. You can maintain 6" forward movement with the Flyrant bouncing around from side to side.

What is in my mind the best argument so far, is that the Snapfire penalty is a special rule for being a FMC, and so is not conferred to a joined unit, the same way that an IC doesnt give fleet to a joined unit.


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Kiredor wrote:Ah, that would be the other

I was thinking somebody was considering the tallyman rule to effect the grots, which is silly. (and wrong).

Also with the allies rules you can never target your ally models, if they are not BB, so you cant kill your own guys.

If the opponent had Nurgle guys, you could feed your grots to them i guess.

Not to derail, but Aura of decay hits all enemy units nearby, without targeting. Grots are desperate allies, (or AoC, cant remember) and so cant be INTENTIONALLY targeted. Aura of Decay auto hits ALL enemy units, (in range) but doesnt target specifically. It works, but is wierd.

This isn't legal, Flying MC's and even more Specifically, the act of Swooping, inherits its rules from the Jump type rules, which state the following with regards to choosing whether to use jump packs or move as normal units of their type:

"Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement."

So because the Hive Guard aren't Jump Monstrous Creatures, all the Hive Tyrant is allowed to do while attached to them is move like a normal Monstrous Creature.

White Ninja wrote:Now it would make the tyrant immune to blast weapons still.

No it would not.

See below for why it would not be immune to blast markers:

Drunkspleen wrote:This isn't legal, Flying MC's and even more Specifically, the act of Swooping, inherits its rules from the Jump type rules, which state the following with regards to choosing whether to use jump packs or move as normal units of their type:

"Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement."

So because the Hive Guard aren't Jump Monstrous Creatures, all the Hive Tyrant is allowed to do while attached to them is move like a normal Monstrous Creature.

DeathReaper wrote:

White Ninja wrote:Now it would make the tyrant immune to blast weapons still.

No it would not.

See below for why it would not be immune to blast markers:

Drunkspleen wrote:This isn't legal, Flying MC's and even more Specifically, the act of Swooping, inherits its rules from the Jump type rules, which state the following with regards to choosing whether to use jump packs or move as normal units of their type:

"Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement."

So because the Hive Guard aren't Jump Monstrous Creatures, all the Hive Tyrant is allowed to do while attached to them is move like a normal Monstrous Creature.

Which also makes the wings rather pointless for as long as the Tyrant Guard are alive as

Q: Can a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord choose to leave a unit of Tyrant Guard once it has joined them (p35)
A: No

It could be quite useful once the Tyrant Guard are dead, but it's a bit of a waste if they don't die