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PRIMARY MISSION:
The primary duty of this unit is to be long range anti armor/MC's, AV13 and weaker. I consider AV14 a whole different animal which should be addressed with meltas. Also I am focusing mainly on turns 1 and 2 of shooting, and at a range of 24"-48". Basically I want this unit to be a hitman unit that is able to reliably destroy or cripple any single big gun, piece of armor, MC, solo IC, or other important unit or transport in one or two turns.
The rest of my army is set up to be able to handle whatever comes its way with a smattering of MM's, HB's, plasma, sniper scouts, etc. so I am not worried about them. Part of my tactical thinking is breaking the battle down into engagement ranges (long 30ish"+, med 12'-36", close 12"-) and I have the Med/Close covered so this unit needs to win the Long range fight without fail.

>---TL : DR = This unit needs to shoot 30" or further and there is no such thing as overkill.---<

Please list the unit, wargear, and points cost that you think fits the bill.

5 Sternguard
2 Lascannons
3 Combiplasmaguns.

First turn, you walk the bolter jerks forward, firing plasma as they go. That's 3 S7 AP2 and 2 S9 AP2 at target within 30" of the front of your deployment.

Or put them in a drop pod with 5 combi-plasmas and (assuming they are Blood Angels) a Divination Librarian for Prescience, Precognition, or Perfect Timing.

Single thunderfire cannon, dirt cheap, supports the rest of your army, kills anything toughness 6 and less dead, annoys vehicles hard. Combo with good anti-tank support and your opponents will cry all the way to their carry case.

I second the thunderfire cannon, and to make it overkill... take 3!

UltraTacSgt wrote:PRIMARY MISSION:
Basically I want this unit to be a hitman unit that is able to reliably destroy or cripple any single big gun, piece of armor, MC, solo IC, or other important unit or transport in one or two turns.
I have the Med/Close covered so this unit needs to win the Long range fight without fail.

You do realize you are playing a game dictated by chance and probability, right?
Also, you do realize your playing a game with multiple army choices that all operate differently and have different vehicle templates, as in some are light and vulnerable and cheap, some are light and fast, some are harder on the front with more guns etc? So there is no such unit as you've mentioned above?

But asides from that, since you haven't put up a point limit or whats in the rest of your army- Land raider or Laspred. Failing that, the closest unit to fit what you've mentioned you want to do is 10 sternguard in a pod with 6 meltas and 4 plasmas. Combisquad, so you can fire 3 melta shots and 4 plasma shots (rapid fire) into 2 different targets. That should assassinate MC's/solo IC's (Who fields a solo IC ?!?!?)/tanks etc.

Also, i think it needs mentioning:

UltraTacSgt wrote:PRIMARY MISSION:
The primary duty of this unit is to be long range anti armor

juraigamer wrote:Single thunderfire cannon. Combo with good anti-tank support and your opponents will cry all the way to their carry case.

Jihallah wrote:You do realize you are playing a game dictated by chance and probability, right?
Also, you do realize your playing a game with multiple army choices that all operate differently and have different vehicle templates, as in some are light and vulnerable and cheap, some are light and fast, some are harder on the front with more guns etc? So there is no such unit as you've mentioned above?

But asides from that, since you haven't put up a point limit or whats in the rest of your army- Land raider or Laspred. Failing that, the closest unit to fit what you've mentioned you want to do is 10 sternguard in a pod with 6 meltas and 4 plasmas. Combisquad, so you can fire 3 melta shots and 4 plasma shots (rapid fire) into 2 different targets. That should assassinate MC's/solo IC's (Who fields a solo IC ?!?!?)/tanks etc.

I don't see what's so hard about what he's looking for...the problem is that it's not something SM does really well or in a cost-effective manner. A squad of Tau Broadsides would probably be best, but other than that, you're probably looking at the all lascannon pred (not a guaranteed kill, but fairly cost effective) or an all lascannon dev squad. Hell, you can buff them up to ridiculous proportions to virtually guarantee the kill (squad leader shoots an AA quad cannon, attach a MotF with conversion beamer, etc), but you'll have trouble making the unit's points back, especially against any armies that don't have big, juicy targets.

All that said, it's usually best to spread this kind of firepower out amongst several units...that give some protection against return fire, and lets you divide fire up if there aren't any big targets, so you don't waste all that fire to kill a single rhino. That's why you see rifleman dreads, missile launcher spam devs/long fangs, landspeeder typhoons, etc. Alone, none of them can be relied on to kill something in a round of shooting, but by volume several units will, and if one of the early shooting units gets lucky and kills the thing, your remaining units can engage other targets, making your shooting that much more efficient. MSU for the win.

Jihallah - I apologize if my description was unclear. I was asking for a single unit/loadout that would be able to fill the role of shooting an overwhelming amount of firepower at a long distance and at a single large and heavily armored target. I assumed (probably a mistake on my part) that others would see the obstacles that such a unit would need to overcome. These obstacles (some of which you mentioned) include the probability of hitting and damaging, the range to reach out and hit the enemy, and the need to keep the points cost as reasonable as possible (something that I assumed was a common understanding).

In hindsight, as I have mentioned before, assuming people would be able to pick all of that information out of my brief description was probably a mistake, as well as assuming people would understand that such a unit would need to overcome the aforementioned obstacles of probability, range, and cost. I will rectify that mistake by explaining my train of thought in this response.

1. Such a unit (and any unit in this game we play) would obviously need to be able to overcome probability (as much as possible) to increase its odds of doing sufficient damage in 1 to 2 rounds. To do so it would need to either have very high odds of hitting (e.g. high BS), a large number of shots fired (to increase the odds of a hit), a high strength (so any hits would have a high likelihood of glancing/penetrating), or some combination of those characteristics. I assumed this to be common knowledge.

2. My mention of the long range role would mean it would need to have a maximum weapon range of at least 36"-48", preferably 48". The very specific mention of the long range role would also preclude the use of short ranged units and tactics, such as the drop podding Sternguard you mentioned.

3. By very specifically stating that the purpose of this unit would be to destroy heavily armored enemies at the longest possible range, and by purposely excluding the mention of the need to effectively destroy smaller, lighter, faster vehicles; I meant to infer that the requested unit had no need to address smaller, lighter, faster vehicles. I also meant to infer the thinking that a unit that could potentially blast a land raider/predator/vindicator in one turn would be able to handle lighter armored vehicles. Lastly, I assumed that it was common tactical knowledge that if a unit did not have any of its intended (heavily armored in this case) targets (for example, as you mentioned, against an enemy who did not utilize heavy armor), that it would would ideally be able to fill a secondary role of general damage dealing; but that this secondary capability should not come at the cost of lessening the ability of the unit to perform its primary function (heavy armor damaging).

4. I assumed (mistake) that readers would pick up, from the part where I clearly defined my interpretation of Long, Medium, and Close range and by my mention of the ability of the rest of my army to handle "whatever comes its way" and that "I have the Med/Close covered", the implication that my army could handle anything that was not a large, heavily armored vehicle that was far away.

If read comprehensively, the role and conditions I stated, as well as those I chose to leave out, would be enough for some individuals to understand the very specific purpose of such a unit and the conditions in which it would operate.

I do concede, however, that hoping for everyone to read and understand all of the intricacies involved with such a purpose build unit was somewhat short sighted of me.

Edited In Immediate Second Post:

Grimaldi - You understand exactly what I was looking for. To balance points cost with long range smackdown ability I I was thinking that it came down to a 5 man Dev squad with 3xML/1xLC @170pts to have the sgt signum the LC, and an Annihilator Predator (TL LC and LC sponsons) @ 165pts. When mathhammer'd, both are extremely close in effectiveness so I thought I would see if more experienced players could come up with something I had overlooked.
I have considered adding a MotF w/ conversion beamer to add the dual utility of the powerful CB and bolstering the ruin that the Devs would be posted up in.

I do intend to have other, albeit lesser, forms of anti armor in my other units to fill the redundancy need, but I would love to be able to just break a piece off of my opponents strategy right off the bat. It would be priceless as well as tactically expedient to pop an expensive unit like a landraider or MC that I knew my opponent was depending on, in the first 1-2 rounds and see them realize their strategy was blown.
It would be like they sat down to enjoy a nice big bowl of fruity pebbles and noticed a cat turd floating on top.

If you don't care about points, 10 man Dev squad with 4 LC. - 230.
Predator with TL LC and LC sponsons is a cheaper alternative. -165

I mostly include LC because they are probably your best choice as they ignore armor saves and have a +1 on armor penetration which makes them better than ML against vehicles and MC. However I prefer to use ML because they can use frag missiles and (hopefully) eventually flakk missiles as well.

AC/Las Pred is one of your better choices.

Rifleman Dread would work out ok.

Typhoon speeders.

MM/HF speeders with vulcan.

MatrixLurtz wrote:If you don't care about points, 10 man Dev squad with 4 LC. - 230.
Predator with TL LC and LC sponsons is a cheaper alternative. -165

I mostly include LC because they are probably your best choice as they ignore armor saves and have a +1 on armor penetration which makes them better than ML against vehicles and MC. However I prefer to use ML because they can use frag missiles and (hopefully) eventually flakk missiles as well.

I think your dev squad points might be off by a hundred or so. Probably just a typo, but that loadout is well over 300 points. One option that hasn't been mentioned yet (although it was nearly mentioned) is the 10-man dev squad with 1 LC and 3 ML. The intent here is to combat squad and put a BS5 lascanon in one area and 3 missiles somewhere else. It's only 80 points more than the 5-man version and allows shooting at more targets, potentially more scoring units (in the one scenario) and more resiliency.

From what I can tell of the requirements listed, I'm going with a predator with lascanon sponsons and a twin linked lascanon on top.

-Myst

Ally with the wolves, take a wolf guard in TDA with cyclone, take 6 long fangs, 3 lascannons and 2 missile launchers, attach rune priest, cast divination primaris power.

Reroll to hit 4 missiles and 3 lascannons potentially at different targets.

Rifleman dread- 4 tl shots, long range, med str, cheap and can take some punishment too.

2x Rifleman Dreads
3x Typhoon Speeders
2x AC/LC Predators
1x Thunderfire Cannon

All in one list

One question is what force org slot you have to spare?

HQ: MotF w/bike & C-beamer
Elite: Las/ML dread. or rifleman, or a faux-dev sternguard squad
Troop: Tac w/LC in a TLLC razor
FA: Typhoon speeders, Stormtalon
HS: pretty much the whole category, but godhammer LRs or annihilator preds would be my choice.
Fort: Fortress of redemption.

UltraTacSgt wrote: I was asking for a single unit/loadout that would be able to fill the role of shooting an overwhelming amount of firepower at a long distance and at a single large and heavily armored target.

Unless you're allying with tau and taking 3 broadsides, no such thing exists.

Devastators with lascannons can do the same job, but they are expensive as all hell and can be shut down pretty easily.

There's better anti-tank options in other slots for C:SM, you're best bet is to load up on thunderfire cannons for heavy, take tank killers from fast or elite, and then round out the list.

I would advise one of two approaches.

The first is taking either 2 Predator Annihilators, or 1 with a backup unit of Devastators with Lascannons/Missile Launchers.
As mentioned already, vanilla Marines don't have the reliability of long range firepower you can get elsewhere. So you need 2 units to provide a bit of redundancy. This is especially true given that your opponent will likely seek to take them out. A single unit of Devastators can be assaulted by something fast-moving, a single tank can be focus-fired down in the same way you're intending to do - but having two units means it's more than likely one will survive to do some damage in return.

The second approach is to take some speedy options. A trio of Land Speeders with multimeltas, or Attack Bikes, may be shorter ranged but with their extra speed they can easily close that distance AND get to side/rear armour too. An assault cannon on a Speeder wouldn't do too badly against most MC's, either.

While Sternguard can perform this role with a las/plas layout, I find it too expensive given that you're paying points for special bolt ammo that you're not likely to use. They also need to be much closer to get the most out of that plasma, which makes them too vulnerable to assault unless you're planning to run them suicidally anyway.

5 sternguard, 2 multimeltas, 3 combimeltas in a pod. Boom.

My Black Templars make great use of Predator Annihilators with Lascannon sponsons and power of the Machine Spirit.

Yours don't get that though, so 4x Lascannon Devs might work, maybe kinda.

Tau have great options for this if you don't mind taking allies to reach this goal.

Of course, the first (and most obvious) measure has been the old standby of broadside battlesuits. They're incredibly effective in pairs or trios but not that great by themselves.

But you also have to take a HQ and a 6 man FW squad, to help keep the points down I would recommend taking a Deathrain HQ (TL Missilepods and flamer) joined with a similarly loaded elite slot of 1-3 crisis suits. Missilepods have a 36" range and high strength to beat the crap out of lightly armored vehicles (AV11 and 12 comes to mind)

juraigamer wrote:

UltraTacSgt wrote: I was asking for a single unit/loadout that would be able to fill the role of shooting an overwhelming amount of firepower at a long distance and at a single large and heavily armored target.

Unless you're allying with tau and taking 3 broadsides, no such thing exists.

There's also a squadron of 3 Medusas. I've rarely found the 36" range to restrict my targets.

The units I would recommend for that is:

1. Annihilator pattern predator with lascannon sponsons 165pts.

2. Devastator squad with 4 lascannons, 5 man 230pts., 10 man 310pts.


As a side note, the land raider people keep calling the godhammer is actualy the phobos. Godhammer is the name of the lascannon pattern.

The thing i'm most jealous of that the loyalists have are the plasma cannon dev squad. I don't know why more people don't field those. I love my plasma cannon obliterators, but they sure are pricey. Granted they can shoot lascannons too, but if I was a loyalist it would be 12 plasma cannons in my heavy slot.

UltraTacSgt wrote: Words

I loll'ed hard

But you know the codex lacks the "single" unit you need and it's going to be spread out amongst a bunch of units, so why ask for a "best" long range AT when there's only two choices in HS that give decent amounts of long range AT fire?

Ally with guard, get a CCS, and some heavy weapons for bring it down! and mass AT weapons, as well as a horde of meat to throw at the enemy is another way you could do it. Blobs are pretty darn cheap for a large footprint that can be used in different ways (meat shield, anti-deepstrike via bubble wrapping etc), and can access their HS and FA slots which have some nice choices.

I posted a list just for this sort of purpose, shooty smackdown using our most efficient load outs.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461825.page

in essence:

TFC, Dakka pred, auto-dread, telion + icarus, LC tac marines, sternguard, typhoon speeders, stormtalon and attack bikes, with an optional vindicator instead of one auto-dread.


The only thing im pondering now is 156 pts (90 pt farseer and 66 pt of jetbikes) for supreme psychic defense. Downside is that it cuts down on firepower pretty hard.

But you know the codex lacks the "single" unit you need and it's going to be spread out amongst a bunch of units, so why ask for a "best" long range AT when there's only two choices in HS that give decent amounts of long range AT fire?

Honestly, I was hoping other people would have some ideas that I had maybe overlooked. I know that I have a certain way of thinking tactically that really favors the idea of overwhelming ranged firepower to destroy key targets and I relegate closer ranged tactics to more of a situational sort of use in cleaning up the enemy force after I have rearranged it with my opening salvos. Guard would suit me well, but I'm an Astartes at heart so that's what I play.
For example, aside from turbo boosting (or whatever the quickest move thing is called in this edition) a speeder or bike into range and hoping for a lucky melta kill before it got focus fired down, I would have no idea how to effectively employ a close ranged anti armor attack on my terms.
My plan was/is to figure out the two top contenders for the job I want done and then get them both so that they can cover each others weaknesses.
Truth is though, I am much less experienced than most people here so I wanted advice from people who know how the different options actually perform on the tabletop. There is a big difference between how something should perform and how something actually does perform when it comes down to it.

Based on everyone's responses I am thinking the best combo would be a Dev squad (5 man+ depending on points) w/ 4xML or 3xML/1xLC run in tandem with an AC/LC sponsons or TLLC/LC sponson Predator for a withering anti-AV element. That would give me both mobility and sheer weight of fire.
Then again a TFC or two bolstering ruins for my Devs and Sniper Scouts, seems like it would also be a nasty and effective combo. Though that combo seems to lean more towards anti-AV/anti-horde.

UltraTacSgt wrote:For example, aside from turbo boosting (or whatever the quickest move thing is called in this edition) a speeder or bike into range and hoping for a lucky melta kill before it got focus fired down, I would have no idea how to effectively employ a close ranged anti armor attack on my terms.

Yes, Yes you do. Because it was posted a couple of times. For reiteration-

Jihallah wrote:the closest unit to fit what you've mentioned you want to do is 10 sternguard in a pod with 6 meltas and 4 plasmas. Combisquad, so you can fire 3 melta shots and 4 plasma shots (rapid fire) into 2 different targets. That should assassinate MC's/solo IC's (Who fields a solo IC ?!?!?)/tanks etc.

Drop pod's are 1) so very very astartes 2) only available to SM armies, so use your fancy tool that no one else has access to and 3) allow you to bring the fight to the unit you want. If you take a pair of dreads in pods, and sternguard in another, you have different options for the first turn drop (D+D, reserve sternguard, or D+S and leave the other dread in reserve). If you have a worrisome unit nearby that big tank you want to melta, drop the sternguard next to the tank, and one of the dreads inbetween the sternguard and the enemy unit. You can put 3 S8AP1 and 4 S7AP2 shots onto two different targets. Unless you roll horribly that WILL kill what it shoots. The drop pod allows you to come down on top of your target, with very little it can do about it. If the big juicy target is held in reserve, drop the two dreads and keep the Sternguard in reserve to drop down when it comes on the board. If the target is an MC rampaging through your lines- you can drop down and do a surgical strike to remove it, and then have your line bolstered by sternguard and their special ammo. If the target is a heavy tank in their lines that's pounding you into the dirt, you can drop down next to it and vaporize it. If the target is something horrible in the midfield- you can drop down. You can shoot the crap out of it from behind so it doesn't get cover. You want a red hot scalpel to surgically remove nasty bits from your enemies army- Sternguard in pod with combi's.

Honestly, a Laspred, maybe two, in conjunction with sternguard will give you the AT/anti-MC/anti-nasty firepower you need. A Laspred might blow up a vehicle in a single volley by rolling high- the most it can possibly do to my bloodthirster is 3 wounds. Hey, i'm not saying my bloodthirster *likes* losing 3 wounds, but the laspred is much more effective vs vehicles. The laspred can ping the MC/s until the sternguard arrive to finish them off. The laspred gives you a solid base of AT, and the sternguard give you options and flexibility and the surgical "I don't want that unit on my gaming table anymore" ability