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I saw an article on goonhammer that summed up a Battlewagon loadout as the "fortress" loadout - does anyone know what is meant by that?

EDIT: NVM, they meant the Kustom Job.

So as far as Dreads go I initially tried a single all klaws dread with Stompamatic Pistons. This was kinda nice as it kept up well with the rest of my Goffs list and it's cheap. However for some reason a lone dread will almost always be shot off the board before it makes combat, even if there's better targets than it. Works best in a list of comparable pace and durability, like buggies.

Triple dreads only works if you're taking loads of vehicles for target saturation or your opponent is bad at screening at you port them in. I would say if you want to take three, don't. Find the points and take six.

Two seems okay. They have a relatively smallish footprint for Tellyporting and two dreads are easier to hide than three if they're walking. In my list, they either port in or they're somewhat protected if they're walking by all the Kommandos and Squigs in the opponent's face.


Skorchas never seem worthwhile unless your list is somehow really lacking anti infantry. A klaw dread kills heavy infantry and vehicles, we should only be putting it into trash infantry if we're bullying some Grots or Guardsmen off of an objective.

I haven't tried any Dakka dreads yet, so I have no input on that front.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Anyone tried anything new lately? Any new builds or underused units? I'm still trying to find a way of making Deff Dreads viable without devoting the entire list to taking nine of them

Yeah man, running blood axes atm, 3/0, 2/1 and 4/2 on this list (+like 20 practice games):
List is super technical, lots of fun. You can redeploy the two rigs and the scrapjets into reserve based on their shooting. Or you can redeploy snikrot and his kommandos against melee for positioning. In cover kommandos are basically unchargable thanks to Surprise!, you can bunker on a corner objective and score GTGB + greentide pretty passively for at least 15 and 10 respectively (without even moving), add on Biggest and the best and you got 15/10/10 on your secondaries while only holding 2 objectives in the corners. You can bait people forward, get good charges, 3d6 off deepstrike with your vehicles, pretty much guarantee your output. And you can switch modes and charge forward if you need to. The list does warp ritual really well as well. Blood axe stormboys are amazing with 7" charges, and with a 13 man squad they survive the overwatch/auspex to get you green tide. I like 10 man squads for green tide the most. + this list only has 90 some wounds so you dont give up no-prisoners, but it does have heaps of characters so you gotta play cagey against assasinate (but this list can do that). The flamer MANz as trukk boys are amazing, if you can use them for a turn without getting out of the trukk it feels like you can't lose, then they just touch whatever they want while ALSO flaming some random crap, actually godlike unit.

I lost to Tau twice with this list, I'm learning that I can't play tricky against them I have to deploy on the line and hope to go first (can't win them all), and I lost to an eldar player who just straight up outplayed me. The list smashes sisters and necrons, has a hard time with nids and Tau, but has good game vs the middling armies IMO.


I got another list, since people think freebootas are dead, this is more of a teams list:


IMO this list crushes the top of the meta atm (sisters, necrons, quins, any AoC thanks to mass ap3, CSM, any melee only army) probably has medium game against votan (at least you almost certainly need ghaz vs votan, goff pressure probably better), but goes toe to toe with most shooting armies (except nids and knights) and otherwise tables everything else. If you dont table them you still have a lot of good primary play, you're putting pressure on them so your backfield is comfortable and you can obsec some bullets to steal objectives. Plays GTGB, engage, warp-ritual, and da biggest boss, but you want to play killing secondaries really. Less to talk about with this build, but stormboyz and trukkboyz are stealing primary for two turns almost guaranteed thanks to obsec stratagem. There is a serious consideration for a deffkilla with the boss pole as your warlord in this list (especially if you think you have a durable meta), but it drops you down to zero CP (meaning you can't -1 to hit turn 1 if you go second) which is a big deal, you also lose 5++ from dropping ghaz, but you gain more units (probably some MANz) to help play engage.


edit: while I'm here doing my yearly post, I'll show off my evil sunz list that was in Nachmund. I went 4/1 in a highly competitive GT here, and almost 85% winrate with this list all year except I kept losing to nids so I mixed it up a little:
This list runs GTGB (sometimes rnd), engage, and biggest boss almost always. The reason why it's worth talking about is 36" moving bikes (which you can still do, the strat is busted you can evne do it after you fall back). Evil sunz will move block ANYONE, but you give up a bike squad every turn for it. So you have MANz and boyz in battlewagons running up behind warbikers (which pin/wrap and die), you have three rukka trukks doing work all game (including charging in turn 4) and you flood the field and keep them in their deployment zone for 2 or 3 turns. If anything jumps over you make it fight last and kill it with MANz. They can shoot battlewagons if they want, but they better be able to clear the bikes or they will lose. This list was an absolute blast to play, until nids arrived with 30+ mortals a turn and table you one turn earlier than everyone else. Still an interesting concept of a list that I would go back to if I wasn't having so much fun with blood axes.

As far as im aware, if ghaz is your warlord, and hes in a supreme detatchment that would make "Goff" Your klan which would cut you off from using the freebootas stratagem.

On the other hand, i have no idea if your "Klan" is freebootas if ghaz is your warlord in a freebootas detatchment. I suppose thats how it works?

I just kind of understood your freebootas list as ghaz in a supreme detatchment given he stood alone. And im somewhat confident your klan is derived from your warlords klan. Which in this case with ghaz in a supreme, would be goffs.

Yup, Warlord is what triggers what kulture stratagems and relics you have access to.

CLAN STRATAGEMS
Each clan has an associated Clan Stratagem. If your army is led by an ORKS <CLAN> WARLORD, you can spend Command points to use this Stratagem in addition to Ork Stratagems.

CLAN RELICS
Each clan has an associated Clan Relic. If your army is led by an ORKS <CLAN> WARLORD, you can select this Relic instead of Shiny Gubbinz.

So even if Ghaz is in a Freeboota detachment, which doesnt screw with Freeboota kulture since hes an exempt clause (though he doesnt get Goff kulture), since he has to be the warlord that means you have Goff strat/relics not freeboota.
Him being in or out of the detachment specifically doesnt have any effect on this, and seeing as putting him in a Supreme is literally free unless youre hitting a detachment cap...somehow... theres no reason to not put him in it either since then the benefits from Goff

I made a freebootas semi competitive list where i actually struggled to find room for him in a supreme detatchment. Because i didnt want to dish out points for extra HQ slots.

I ran 1 patrol and 1 battalion next to it, so i needed a Big mek with KFF, my weirdboy and then a third guy just to free ghaz from being in the freebootas detatchments.

Ended up paying 1 of my grot units for makari, who is also a specialist lad.

So there can be the issue of using ghaz as one of the HQ slots in case you dont want to spend extra points on that.

Though in the end as i said, i did manage to find a way to put ghaz in his supreme detatchment where he gets exploding sixes.

Can you use the clan specific stratagems in a non-Goff army while Ghaz is your warlord?

Aqaue3 wrote:
Can you use the clan specific stratagems in a non-Goff army while Ghaz is your warlord?

No. The rules were quoted above.

Ah yep thanks boys, that makes the list pretty interesting when considering the choices. Deffkilla with pole is really good mission playing, and really useful if you're not tabling the enemy. But ghaz raw power is probably still worth it in many matchups even if we lose obsec strat.

Tough call!

I feel like freebootas is the one build where ghaz is kinda an auto include. Buggies desperately need that inv from waaagh. The extra atk is nice too.

2 games down with Votann.

absolutely wrecked my buggy list like my buggies were so outclasses and my gretchin trying to hide for objectives did not do their job. judged buggies just drop.

My weird mortal wound ork list did surprisingly well and eeked a win. I think its our strongest list into votann but has some weaknesses into other things that will gatekeep it from winning anything big

snakebites

battalion
skragbad
weirdboy
2x beastboyz
2x gretchin
3x kommandoes
3x squighogboyz
3x squignobz
2x killrig

patrol
beastboss on squigasaur
beastboyz
killrig

 G00fySmiley wrote:
2 games down with Votann.

absolutely wrecked my buggy list like my buggies were so outclasses and my gretchin trying to hide for objectives did not do their job. judged buggies just drop.

My weird mortal wound ork list did surprisingly well and eeked a win. I think its our strongest list into votann but has some weaknesses into other things that will gatekeep it from winning anything big

snakebites

battalion
skragbad
weirdboy
2x beastboyz
2x gretchin
3x kommandoes
3x squighogboyz
3x squignobz
2x killrig

patrol
beastboss on squigasaur
beastboyz
killrig

What units did the Votann player bring? What was the most valuable unit for you in that matchup?

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
2 games down with Votann.

absolutely wrecked my buggy list like my buggies were so outclasses and my gretchin trying to hide for objectives did not do their job. judged buggies just drop.

My weird mortal wound ork list did surprisingly well and eeked a win. I think its our strongest list into votann but has some weaknesses into other things that will gatekeep it from winning anything big

snakebites

battalion
skragbad
weirdboy
2x beastboyz
2x gretchin
3x kommandoes
3x squighogboyz
3x squignobz
2x killrig

patrol
beastboss on squigasaur
beastboyz
killrig

What units did the Votann player bring? What was the most valuable unit for you in that matchup?

not sure i will get all the names right and there was a lot of proxies

the named guy ironmaster, a champoin

4x units of troops with the ion blasters str 5 ap-2 D2 (woof these hurt)

1 group of bezerkers with axes

2 units hearthguard

3 sagitaur

2 land fortress

land fortress probably thier mvps those were grossly undercosted for what they do 18W T8 2+ and heavy shooting.

my ork mvp the nobz on squigs and bosses probably

i think the biggest thing my list had is small footprints and hiding out of line of sight up until the assaults and picking units that let me after overpowering assaults consolidate out of line of sights as well, killrigs cannot do this and were gone by top of turn 3.

by the end of the game i had cowering gretchin and a few models left per squad of beastsnagga boyz holding things to win on points, both bosses dead, squig riders dead and 2 nob squigs harassing and threatening if the votann moved out of thier hidey deployment. of note they still had half their army but i played to secondaries better to squeek the victory.

Sounds very much like Votann will be an uphill struggle for us Orks. There's a fair amount I've seen that probably needs price hikes or nerfs, but who knows when that will happen.

Well done on the win though.

i mean, Voltann have been debated on being banned even before they came out theyre so obviously broken.
Yeah theyre slow and only have medium ranged guns at best, but when they basically auto-delete anything they catch its still not balanced at all.

The judgement token mechanic is pretty broken given how uninteractive it is and how it punishes your opponent for basically playing the game with no way of removing them. Votann are currently held in check with the limited model availability for their range as well as their relatively slow movement for their infantry, though the transports mitigate that pretty strongly.

Orks best bet is to pin them in their deployment zone and hope to score an early enough lead that they can't make up the points back even after they basically table you.

I don't think they're really even going to suffer from mobility that much like people think, at least competitive lists. Most players will take at least 2 jetbike squads that ignore cover and get a pre game move and then probably max fortresses with their infantry loaded up so they can move 10" first turn then disembark and be at midfield next turn.

to me other than Votann being really really powerful. Once out of transports they are slow. Also like with most ork matchups using lien of sight blocking terrain and doing your best to prevent them from getting LOS for shots was my only hope. my squigs with killrigs is the smallest footprint army i can wield and it still packs a ton of mortals wounds to crack the tanks then hide. Try to win on points keeping the opponent hemmed in knowing if they come to you they will be charged. our secondaries are pretty easy to max so its a play to the mission type deal. if it were just a matter of old school kill points we would not stand a chance

Whelp, while it sucks for players that bought the Votann codex having it invalidated so quickly, they got nerfed already. They don't get auto-6's to wound for their judgement tokens and points went up across the board in the army.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/29/leagues-of-votann-balance-update-a-word-from-james-workshop/

So now Voltann have anti-synergy for a core rule....awesome work gw!
Man im glad i didnt buy that army.

(They have a lot of 6 to wound effects and judgement tokens actively block you from using them now)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So now Voltann have anti-synergy for a core rule....awesome work gw!
Man im glad i didnt buy that army.

(They have a lot of 6 to wound effects and judgement tokens actively block you from using them now)

Yup, it's hilarious that it's a detriment to rail weapons proccing their ability. Never change Gdubs, never change.

yea, the procing auto6s hurt like a lot. i get its a core mechanic of the army but holy crap 6s when you roll a 4 was insane out the gate. honestly I am surprised they fixed it so quickly. I look forward to picking up used Votann models freshly built on ebay as they are not autowin by taking anymore and maybe after another balance sheet or 2. I like the look of the army, very late 1990's-early 2000s sci fi channel vibes in a lot of it which appeals to me for painting.

Also its goign to be hilarious seeing the same "that guy" players trying to bring thier new Votann and play them with codex points rather than FAQ points and you knwo those same people will insist its just using the book they have and they only play what is printed no need for FAQs, and to resolve disputes with rolloffs. (there are 2 people locally i know who i am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts try and do this for the next year or 2 until people stop playing them with the broken nonsense)

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So now Voltann have anti-synergy for a core rule....awesome work gw!
Man im glad i didnt buy that army.

(They have a lot of 6 to wound effects and judgement tokens actively block you from using them now)

Yup, it's hilarious that it's a detriment to rail weapons proccing their ability. Never change Gdubs, never change.

Automatically proccing sixes was one of the biggest balance issues though. Plus you can still proc those skills, just not when auto-wounding.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
So now Voltann have anti-synergy for a core rule....awesome work gw!
Man im glad i didnt buy that army.

(They have a lot of 6 to wound effects and judgement tokens actively block you from using them now)

Yup, it's hilarious that it's a detriment to rail weapons proccing their ability. Never change Gdubs, never change.

Automatically proccing sixes was one of the biggest balance issues though. Plus you can still proc those skills, just not when auto-wounding.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it needed to happen, it's just funny how you actually want to NOT have lots of judgement tokens on a unit when using rail weapons now though.

Still sounds like vastly more synergy than anything ork related.

 Jidmah wrote:
Still sounds like vastly more synergy than anything ork related.

I mean, it's not a high bar to pass considering how little Ork codex units work alongside one another. The strats, WL traits and relics remain untouched so they're still very pushed ruleswise.

somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but blood axe's light cover trait confers to vehicles as well right? it has the same wording as grey knights tide of shadows which applies to vehicles so I don't see why it wouldn't. Trying to make a triple kannon wagon list work lol.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but blood axe's light cover trait confers to vehicles as well right? it has the same wording as grey knights tide of shadows which applies to vehicles so I don't see why it wouldn't. Trying to make a triple kannon wagon list work lol.

Yup, no restrictions when it comes to the types of models, it only doesn't apply to Gretchin units.

It is decent for a kannon wagon list, simply because kannon wagons actually have the range to be outside of 18" from enemy units to benefit from the cover, and being able to fall back and shoot does mean opponent's can't love tap it and prevent you from shooting for a turn. The only rough thing is that even with a SpeedWAAGH!, armour of contempt hurts its damage output significantly and Mek Gunz are generally just better cost-efficiency wise.

With the Blood Axes rule for being 18'' away and getting the benefit of light cover... does that stack for a +2 to save when infantry are actually in light cover?

 PaddyMick wrote:
With the Blood Axes rule for being 18'' away and getting the benefit of light cover... does that stack for a +2 to save when infantry are actually in light cover?

It doesn't work that way since you count as being in light cover already for the BA rule, so being in light cover again doesn't do anything and won't stack. It's different from the wording that kommandos have that let's them stack on the cover save.