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Ok, updating my SW list to stay competitive with the 6th Ed. changes.

Thankfully for SW players, and to the dismay of the rest of you, SW lists did not take much of a beating with the changes in 6th. My Hybrid list is staying nearly exactly the same. There is one unit swap I am considering highly however: Bike Squadrons to replace MM/HF Speeders.

In 5th I loved my MM/HF Speeders. I would deploy or deepstrike, and fire that MM with varying degrees of success. Yes, it was suicide melta, but I needed it in the army.

Now, that bikes are true T5 and SW attack bikes requires two other bikes to accompany them, the attack bike is now very difficult to remove. It is much more survivable than the Speeder.

Speeders are only AV10 and 2 hull points.

Both units have jink and can turbo boost.

Changes to dangerous terrain is yet another boon to bikes.

SW bikes are "swiftclaw bikers" which means they MUST assault if ending their movement phase within 6 inches of an enemy model. That sucks, however with pre-measuring permissible at all times, I think this is minor. Besides, they are pretty boss for marines in CC on the charge anyway.

So is there any reason not to exchange three MM/HF speeders for two units of three swiftclaw bikers with a MM attack bike in each?

Yes they survive better but they are worse at shooting. However if you can fit in a Wolf priest you get prefered enemy, so you Can reroll to hit.

Land Speeder is better. It can move 12" and fire both weapons; double multi meltas!

It's jink save is almost the same as the Bikes, if it goes flat out.

Landbooster wrote:Yes they survive better but they are worse at shooting. However if you can fit in a Wolf priest you get prefered enemy, so you Can reroll to hit.

Why is it worse? BS4, no?

mercer wrote:Land Speeder is better. It can move 12" and fire both weapons; double multi meltas!

It's jink save is almost the same as the Bikes, if it goes flat out.

Well I have been running MM/HF for a few years. So, I was comparing one MM shot to one MM shot. Adding a second MM makes them 80 points each I believe. Still a bargain but I think the survivability of the bikes will outweigh the "speed" of the LS. (Speed is in quotes because their are many considerations such as ignoring terrain, skimmer status, but having to bounce from LOS blocking terrain to LOS blocking terrain due to its fragility.)

Bikes are relentless. They can always shoot unless moved flat out. Also, remember that a bike can shoot one gun per model on the bike (so attack bike can shoot melta and bolters)

ShottyScotty wrote:Bikes are relentless. They can always shoot unless moved flat out. Also, remember that a bike can shoot one gun per model on the bike (so attack bike can shoot melta and bolters)

So a bike can move up to 18 inches going flat out. A bike can shoot without penalty after moving up to 12 inches.

A speeder can move up to 24 inches going flat out. A speeder can shoot 2 weapons without penalty after moving up to 12 inches.

Jink saves are 5+ for both if moving. The jink save can increase to 4+ if either is moving flat out. So the jink save is a wash.

Do I have all of this correct so far?

Swiftclaws are BS3, just like Skyclaws and Bloodclaws. Unfortunately.

However I wouldn't ignore bikes too.

The simpliest unit could be:
- 3x bikers - 1x plasmagun - MM attack bike. 130

While in comparison to SM/BA bikes they are hugely cheaper they still are less effective.

The point of this kind of units is stay at limit range (24"), easy with premeasuring, and throw avoc with rapidfire goodness.

The problems are:
- BS3 vs BS4;
- LD 8 issues on a very very little unit;
- just one plasmagun unfortunately.


I may say that all depend about the rest of the list. You saying hibrid list let me think at a MSU on Razors/LF/TWC list. I may imagine a use of this kind of units in an army like that but I'm not really sure about his effectiveness honestly.

Have you considered a little allied SM contingent?

HQ - Captain - artificier armor - PF - SS - bike. 190
TR - 4x bikes - 2x plasmaguns - MM attack bike. 195
FA - 2x MM attack bikes. 100 (optional)

- better BS;
- better LD;
- better load-out;
- 1 more UBER HQ to absorb enemy fire (many think it's overkill with AA+SS but believe me, it's a monster).

Deuce11 wrote:

mercer wrote:Land Speeder is better. It can move 12" and fire both weapons; double multi meltas!

It's jink save is almost the same as the Bikes, if it goes flat out.

Well I have been running MM/HF for a few years. So, I was comparing one MM shot to one MM shot. Adding a second MM makes them 80 points each I believe. Still a bargain but I think the survivability of the bikes will outweigh the "speed" of the LS. (Speed is in quotes because their are many considerations such as ignoring terrain, skimmer status, but having to bounce from LOS blocking terrain to LOS blocking terrain due to its fragility.)

I wouldn't say Bikes are more survivable at all. They have a single wound (unless Attack Bike) and only need to fail one save to die. Small arms fire such as lasguns could even bring them down. A Land Speeder has hull points, for at least from a glancing point of view, it has 'two wounds' before it goes down. Also S4 weapons can only glance it on a 6+, while those weapons wound Bikes on a 5+.

At the end of the day it really is horses for courses. Just Bikes do not have double multi meltas

well BS 3 and one shot is a bit unnerving. I am going to have to check that out.

At least in the SW codex, attack bikes can only be purchased as an upgrade to a unit of three or more bikes. So really, the MM has 4 ablative wounds at T5.

Lascannon? Krak missile? Plasma gun? Melta? one wound each for the bikes. Could be one shot one kill for a speeder. Further, speeders can be silenced more easily with stuns etc.

Swiftclaw are now awesome.

Advantages:
- Hammer of Wrath
- Jink
- Relentless
- Ignore Difficult Terrain
- Turbo Boost
- Toughness 5 (S10 needed for Instant Death)
- Immune to Pinning
- Can fight in combat (and gets Berserker Charge for +2 attacks on the charge as well)
- Can contest objectives

Disadvantages:
- BS 3 means 4+ to hit
- WS 3 means its a 3+ to hit in combat from WS 4 or greater models
- Has to charge a unit within 6" unless lead by an IC.
- Treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous in some instances

Notes:
- Twin-Linked Bolters at BS:3 are more accurate than Bolters at BS:4 if I remember right. I'd have to redo the math to be sure. Of course you do have a few normal weapons you'd want to use...
- As already pointed out, you can pre-measure everything so you can stay more than 6" away easily.
- The Attack Bike can fire two weapons.


Compare that with the Land Speeder:

Advantages
- Fast
- Skimmer
- Can carry variety of heavy weapons and one or all depending how far it moved

Disadvantages
- 2 Hull Points
- AV 10
- Can't contest objectives

Notes:
- Will likely get glanced to death before doing anything. Using a Heavy Flamer on Space Marines is tantamount to suicide.


Frankly, I want Swiftclaws now. I didn't before. I definitely do now. In some ways they are more useful than Thunderwolves and can handle some of the same roles.

Edit: To emphasis the survivability angle consider 10 shots from some Space Marines. Against the Land Speeder, they'll land 1.11 hull points from just 10 shots. The same 10 shots against bikes will land 0.74 wounds once armor saves are taken into account.

Deuce11 wrote:well BS 3 and one shot is a bit unnerving. I am going to have to check that out.

At least in the SW codex, attack bikes can only be purchased as an upgrade to a unit of three or more bikes. So really, the MM has 4 ablative wounds at T5.

Lascannon? Krak missile? Plasma gun? Melta? one wound each for the bikes. Could be one shot one kill for a speeder. Further, speeders can be silenced more easily with stuns etc.

That's very true about the multi melta, but you're not paying 80 points for two multi meltas then are you? In fact you're paying probably double and only getting a single multi melta.

All those weapons could down a Speeder pretty easily, but they can also down a Bike pretty easily. Actually it's easier to kill the bike models, because wounds are taken on the closest model (which may not be in cover) and all those need a 2+ to wound. With the Speeder the krak and melta can only glance on a 2+ and plasma needs a 4+, add that it gets jink too, so doesn't need to sit in cover.

I think really you have already made your mind up which is best

Mercer, remember that bike have jink too. Alwais.

If a MM shot at a Speeder, especially with the new AP1 uber-bonuses, you'll very probably lose the skimmer.

If the same MM shot at a bikes unit you'll certainly lose one bike. Not the whole unit.

I'm not 100% for Swiftclaws talking about SW but if we translate the same analisis on SM codex my choise is clear.

Another thing that hasn't been discussed yet is that SW bikers can't take advantage from the "Combat Tactics" special SM rule. A smart player will find the way to close one of his unit at less than 6" of your bikers. Even with the CC good effectiveness a very little unit of WS3 can quitely be managed in melee, at least stucked in combat losing completly their sniping role.
If you want bikes take SM bikes.

Toban wrote:If a MM shot at a Speeder, especially with the new AP1 uber-bonuses, you'll very probably lose the skimmer.

There are no AP1 uber bonuses. Sure, AP1 is now an extra +1 on the table, but they shifted the table by 1, so it's a wash. It just hurts AP 3 weapons and worse.

Toban wrote:Mercer, remember that bike have jink too. Alwais.

.

True, totally forgot about.

mercer wrote:All those weapons could down a Speeder pretty easily, but they can also down a Bike pretty easily. Actually it's easier to kill the bike models, because wounds are taken on the closest model (which may not be in cover) and all those need a 2+ to wound. With the Speeder the krak and melta can only glance on a 2+ and plasma needs a 4+, add that it gets jink too, so doesn't need to sit in cover.

Plasma needs a 3+ to glance a Speeder. Bikes always have Jink. When you take Swiftclaws, they are typically a significant investment (couple hundred versus half a hundred) but can take far more hits. Plus the other points I mentioned previously.

Toban wrote:Another thing that hasn't been discussed yet is that SW bikers can't take advantage from the "Combat Tactics" special SM rule. A smart player will find the way to close one of his unit at less than 6" of your bikers. Even with the CC good effectiveness a very little unit of WS3 can quitely be managed in melee, at least stucked in combat losing completly their sniping role.

So throw a Wolf Guard or IC on a Bike and attach to the Swiftclaws. Now they don't have a mandatory charge. With your speed (12" with no slow down for terrain) it should be easy to out maneuver most enemy units so you charge only the unit you want to.

Sorry, 4+ to pen with plasma.

Bikes haven't always had jink; jink is a new rule. Bikes before only got a save when using turbo boost. They now get a 5+ cover save with jink as long as they move. Big difference.

Saying a bigger unit can take more hits over a smaller unit is common sense and a moot point. It's like saying Terminators can asborb more small arms fire power than Space Marines, kind of stating the obvious. If you take Speeders in squadrons, then you can take more damage too...

If you add a Wolf Guard into a Swiftclaw unit, then you're bumping up the points cost again and making the unit cost even more.

Really should take a double multi melta Speeder or multi melta Attack Bike (not sure if Wolves can do that?), in which case the Speeder is a better unit.

mercer wrote:

Really should take a double multi melta Speeder or multi melta Attack Bike (not sure if Wolves can do that?), in which case the Speeder is a better unit.

Yeah, wolves cannot just take the attack bike. A min squad of three is required before one can upgrade.

They are super cheap. I do not have the dex in front of me so I am not going to quote their cost but it is less than every other bike in the power armor from any codex. That might be because of the stated reduction in BS and WS. So IIRC the quad of three bikes plus the upgrade we are discussing is only 85 points. 5 more than a MM/MM Speeder. Does that help narrow the scope of the conversation?

mercer wrote:
I wouldn't say Bikes are more survivable at all. They have a single wound (unless Attack Bike) and only need to fail one save to die. Small arms fire such as lasguns could even bring them down. A Land Speeder has hull points, for at least from a glancing point of view, it has 'two wounds' before it goes down. Also S4 weapons can only glance it on a 6+, while those weapons wound Bikes on a 5+.

At the end of the day it really is horses for courses. Just Bikes do not have double multi meltas

Ran the numbers just to check. Suppose that you shoot 15 bolter shots at a unit of Land Speeders and 15 bolter shots at a unit of bikes. The land speeders can be glanced, but get a 5+ jink save. The bikes get a 3+ armor save. Here are the stats

So it looks like the Land Speeders are more resilient to bolters, but given that you'll only get 2 Land speeders for the price of three bikes. I'd say it's a wash. Also, the bikes can assault, they get hammer of wrath hits, fight and then leave close combat on their next movement phase. This gives them an opportunity to do damage twice in one turn. Land speeders can't do that.

EDIT : Actually, three stock bikes is about the same cost as ONE MM/MM land speeder.

cowmonaut wrote:
Notes:
- Twin-Linked Bolters at BS:3 are more accurate than Bolters at BS:4 if I remember right. I'd have to redo the math to be sure. Of course you do have a few normal weapons you'd want to use...

yes. Twin linked BS3 is 75% chance to hit, while straight BS4 is 66.6% chance to hit.

@Grugknuckle: That is great analysis but it does not really speak to the crux of the discussion.

We are debating which of these units due the same job better in the SW Codex: one MM/MM Speeder or 1x3 bikes including a MM attack bike upgrade.

The points are nearly identical. The single speeder has two MMs at BS4, AV10, 2 Hull Points, jink, and deepstrike. The bike squadron has one MM at BS3, arguably 4 Ws at T5, 3+, jink, and a host of other special rules. Which one, throughout the course of a game will be better at killing AV13-14?

The bikes are more versatile and likely more resilient. They can contest, assault isolated units, and do more damage to infantry. But... the land speeder is much more effective at killing vehicles. If that is what you are looking for, go with the land speeder. If you want something a bit more well-rounded, go with the bikes.

Myth wrote:The bikes are more versatile and likely more resilient. They can contest, assault isolated units, and do more damage to infantry. But... the land speeder is much more effective at killing vehicles. If that is what you are looking for, go with the land speeder. If you want something a bit more well-rounded, go with the bikes.

This is what I meant. The MM/MM land speeder is the perfect tool for destroying AV 13 or better. I would choose that if I expected land raider spam or something. But the problem is that the MM/MM land speeder is nearly useless against foot-sloggers or after you have destroyed his vehicles. The bikes are pretty much just as survivable, but they can be adapted to do more than one mission with a mediocre chance of success.

I only put the numbers up so that we could all have an objective source of data to compare.