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Hey Dakka.
I got the new rulebook and noticed a huge lack of Black Templars.. they seem to be the only army (with a codex) that doesnt get their own spread or mini feature.
there is scattered lore on a few pages but they were hugely neglected in 6th edition i think. not only that but they changed the way their rules work and gave some of our exclusivish rules to everybody, i always loved the emperors champion was like the guy who went around issuing challenges and slaying heroes... now it seems that is for everyone too. and the emperors champion isnt even that strong. even sisters of battle got way more love than the templars...
yes im just having a little complain. but they were my army of choice getting into the hobby. and im just a little dissapointed that they arent featured more

I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that other than some special rules and some unique details there really isn't enough to set them apart from other vanilla space marines to justify more than the the 2/3rds of a page that they currently share with the salamanders, at least in the eyes of newcomers or people who don't play Black Templar. I mean can you honestly say that there are enough unique figures available to the Black Templars to really justify their own spread in the BRB? I mean if you look at the Sisters almost every unit is unique to that army and if even though it is a dated army it is still a pretty unique faction.

But thats just my opinion, as an IG player, Black Templars are just black and white space marines whose units tend to die a lil quicker from pie plates.

PS- And I think the reason why the Dark Angels got a spread is because their new codex is right around the corner which will probably bring out some new units just like when the SW and BA codexes came out.

Black Templar are significantly different from codex marines, they dont have sargeants, and have scouts and marines in the same squad, their terminators are significantly better as well as their vindicators,

yeah i do understand that.
what i really love most about the templars is the lore and the aesthetics. i dont mind that they lack unique miniatures so much, as they can be easy to convert.
i just would have loved to see a dedicated art page and lore page specificlly about them.
i think that black templars have some of the sweetest artwork so far, but they seem a bit dated.. (my codex is hard, and im new..)
im kinda hoping that GW is just saving all this secret awesome black templar lore and codex stuff to release soon, rather than let them all be eaten by tyranids..
you can never defeat the black templars!

if anyone has any awesome secret black templar stuff. please share now. i need my black templar fix.. and i have models waiting for a new codex....

Because Black Templars don't have anything that sets them apart from other chapters. Infact, I think that they are a weird combination of most codices to start with. Yeah they got some fancy things here and there but I guess not enough or important for GW.

jordanis wrote:Black Templar are significantly different from codex marines, they dont have sargeants, and have scouts and marines in the same squad, their terminators are significantly better as well as their vindicators,

Jordanis- like I said, other than their special rules and some extra bits there isn't really that much to set them apart from vanilla marines, I'm not talking gameplay wise (because they do play differently) but from a visual standpoint. That was the point I was trying to make, that was my reasoning for GW not giving them their own spread in the BRB.

And I stand by my statement about them just being black and white space marines because against the two BT players I usually play with, they rarely get within assault range of my main force and with all of the scouts and neophytes included in their squads my templates tend to rip them apart which means that their special rules rarely have any effect in the games I've played.

i remember high marshal helbrecht being the front standing character on the splash page of GW as long as i can remember.
but i think the fact that they are a fleet based marine chapter with no home world of unknown numbers who dont specificly follow the codex astartes sets them apart from other chapters.. and especially their mixed troops. and dont forget they found those landraiders
altho i guess the fact that they are secound founding.. you could consider them a lesser chapter, but only to imperial fist!

also love the whole chained weapon look. vowing never to lay down their arms and give up the crusade. which i also hear is a tradition taken from the world eaters...



more of my WIP black templars that need some love...

Guarder22 wrote:

jordanis wrote:Black Templar are significantly different from codex marines, they dont have sargeants, and have scouts and marines in the same squad, their terminators are significantly better as well as their vindicators,

Jordanis- like I said, other than their special rules and some extra bits there isn't really that much to set them apart from vanilla marines, I'm not talking gameplay wise (because they do play differently) but from a visual standpoint. That was the point I was trying to make, that was my reasoning for GW not giving them their own spread in the BRB.

And I stand by my statement about them just being black and white space marines because against the two BT players I usually play with, they rarely get within assault range of my main force and with all of the scouts and neophytes included in their squads my templates tend to rip them apart which means that their special rules rarely have any effect in the games I've played.

along your same line of logic: why did dark angels get a page? blood angels? space wolves? they all have 1 or 2 aesthetic differences that set them apart, BT are no different...plus, they should get their own page, they invented the LR:crusader

jordanis wrote:

Guarder22 wrote:

jordanis wrote:Black Templar are significantly different from codex marines, they dont have sargeants, and have scouts and marines in the same squad, their terminators are significantly better as well as their vindicators,

Jordanis- like I said, other than their special rules and some extra bits there isn't really that much to set them apart from vanilla marines, I'm not talking gameplay wise (because they do play differently) but from a visual standpoint. That was the point I was trying to make, that was my reasoning for GW not giving them their own spread in the BRB.

And I stand by my statement about them just being black and white space marines because against the two BT players I usually play with, they rarely get within assault range of my main force and with all of the scouts and neophytes included in their squads my templates tend to rip them apart which means that their special rules rarely have any effect in the games I've played.

along your same line of logic: why did dark angels get a page? blood angels? space wolves? they all have 1 or 2 aesthetic differences that set them apart, BT are no different...plus, they should get their own page, they invented the LR:crusader

Because those three chapters you mentioned are first Founding Chapters? Pretty important fluff wise than a second founding chapter.

yeah i did mention that. maybe that IS the reason
i just would have thought the fact that they have their own codex. it would qualify them for more pages like everyone else.

Ultrafool wrote:

jordanis wrote:

Guarder22 wrote:

jordanis wrote:Black Templar are significantly different from codex marines, they dont have sargeants, and have scouts and marines in the same squad, their terminators are significantly better as well as their vindicators,

Jordanis- like I said, other than their special rules and some extra bits there isn't really that much to set them apart from vanilla marines, I'm not talking gameplay wise (because they do play differently) but from a visual standpoint. That was the point I was trying to make, that was my reasoning for GW not giving them their own spread in the BRB.

And I stand by my statement about them just being black and white space marines because against the two BT players I usually play with, they rarely get within assault range of my main force and with all of the scouts and neophytes included in their squads my templates tend to rip them apart which means that their special rules rarely have any effect in the games I've played.

along your same line of logic: why did dark angels get a page? blood angels? space wolves? they all have 1 or 2 aesthetic differences that set them apart, BT are no different...plus, they should get their own page, they invented the LR:crusader

Because those three chapters you mentioned are first Founding Chapters? Pretty important fluff wise than a second founding chapter.

Fluff may have played a small part in the DA, BA, and SW getting their own spreads but I think marketing also played a role in it. If you have been following the rumors, the DA should be getting a codex pretty soon which means new units and more sales so what better way to build interest than with an advertisement in the BRB, because lets face it for the new players the BRB is a great way to see the visual differences between the various armies.

and cos they are the original space marine chapter.
the first created by the emperor. and its the whole anniversary

this belongs in 40k discussion, not general.

my bad, im new and parked my rhino in the wrong neighborhood...

simplexcity wrote:my bad, im new and parked my rhino in the wrong neighborhood...

hey, i'm with you men. I'm also suffering a lot on what GW did to our beloved army. Just want to say that your not alone. See, you make me create an account on this forum to say this,hehe. . .
Don't worry, don't lose hope, i believe there's a codex coming, we don't need rumors first before the codex.
Hope we battle together someday, =)

Guarder22 wrote: at least in the eyes of newcomers or people who don't play Black Templar.

/endthread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/458598.page

This has been talked about already in a previous thread. They brought up that BT didnt get in the BRB that much. They are far from a normal codex marine, and should still have a seperate codex imo.

I thought it was strange that the IH in the SM codex only got a small picture while every other first founding got a picture with a few paragraphs in one section

We are currently launching a crusade at GW HQ to punish them for this slight on our honor

Ignore all heretical sayings that Templars do not deserve a codex.

No Pity, No Remorse, No Fear, Brother

BT need a significant look. I want to see that fearless, zealot anger brought. Maybe a +1 to DTW, crusade and rage as USR, and a boost to the EC stats.

That being said, I think all of this can be done in about 20 pages of extra stuff (fluff, rules, units, the whole 9 yards). I have well of 2k of BT and I love their theme more than any other, but I don't NEED a stand alone codex. Done right, they can be totally awesome and still be folded into a WD double issue or SM codex.

Am I worried my Hospitallers is space might get screwed? Yeah, I am. But if that happens, I'll just beg my local club to let me run the old dex, which may not be great, but is still really good.

simplexcity wrote:i remember high marshal helbrecht being the front standing character on the splash page of GW as long as i can remember.
but i think the fact that they are a fleet based marine chapter with no home world of unknown numbers who dont specificly follow the codex astartes sets them apart from other chapters.. and especially their mixed troops. and dont forget they found those landraiders
altho i guess the fact that they are secound founding.. you could consider them a lesser chapter, but only to imperial fist!

also love the whole chained weapon look. vowing never to lay down their arms and give up the crusade. which i also hear is a tradition taken from the world eaters...



more of my WIP black templars that need some love...

I think I have that center BT, what on earth was supposed to go in his right hand?

Wardragoon wrote:

simplexcity wrote:i remember high marshal helbrecht being the front standing character on the splash page of GW as long as i can remember.
but i think the fact that they are a fleet based marine chapter with no home world of unknown numbers who dont specificly follow the codex astartes sets them apart from other chapters.. and especially their mixed troops. and dont forget they found those landraiders
altho i guess the fact that they are secound founding.. you could consider them a lesser chapter, but only to imperial fist!

also love the whole chained weapon look. vowing never to lay down their arms and give up the crusade. which i also hear is a tradition taken from the world eaters...



more of my WIP black templars that need some love...

I think I have that center BT, what on earth was supposed to go in his right hand?

its a kitbash of the AOBR captain and some wings and a hood...he is supposed to have a powersword

jordanis wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

simplexcity wrote:i remember high marshal helbrecht being the front standing character on the splash page of GW as long as i can remember.
but i think the fact that they are a fleet based marine chapter with no home world of unknown numbers who dont specificly follow the codex astartes sets them apart from other chapters.. and especially their mixed troops. and dont forget they found those landraiders
altho i guess the fact that they are secound founding.. you could consider them a lesser chapter, but only to imperial fist!

also love the whole chained weapon look. vowing never to lay down their arms and give up the crusade. which i also hear is a tradition taken from the world eaters...



more of my WIP black templars that need some love...

I think I have that center BT, what on earth was supposed to go in his right hand?

its a kitbash of the AOBR captain and some wings and a hood...he is supposed to have a powersword

Ah, now for the million dollar question, why do people break that arm off O.o

Ultrafool wrote:

jordanis wrote:

Guarder22 wrote:

jordanis wrote:Black Templar are significantly different from codex marines, they dont have sargeants, and have scouts and marines in the same squad, their terminators are significantly better as well as their vindicators,

Jordanis- like I said, other than their special rules and some extra bits there isn't really that much to set them apart from vanilla marines, I'm not talking gameplay wise (because they do play differently) but from a visual standpoint. That was the point I was trying to make, that was my reasoning for GW not giving them their own spread in the BRB.

And I stand by my statement about them just being black and white space marines because against the two BT players I usually play with, they rarely get within assault range of my main force and with all of the scouts and neophytes included in their squads my templates tend to rip them apart which means that their special rules rarely have any effect in the games I've played.

along your same line of logic: why did dark angels get a page? blood angels? space wolves? they all have 1 or 2 aesthetic differences that set them apart, BT are no different...plus, they should get their own page, they invented the LR:crusader

Because those three chapters you mentioned are first Founding Chapters? Pretty important fluff wise than a second founding chapter.

...they were formed as Chapters at the same time. The Second Founding Chapters did just as much awesome stuff during the Heresy as the "First Founding Chapters", so why would they be less important? Because they didn't get one of the Legion names?

There's a difference between a Legion being cut-down and a Chapter being created - it's not as if the Legion's were completely dissolved overnight and then some of them said "Errr hey guys, we could, you know, band together and like call ourselves the Ultramarines, like we used to be, yah?". The Legion's were cut down to the new size and called Chapters, whilst the 'fragments' from the resizing formed new Chapters, from which we get Sigismund & his Black Templar's.

That is the difference. The Black Templar Chapter was created post-Heresy, the Imperial Fist Chapter had always been the same as the Imperial Fist Legion, just far smaller.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:There's a difference between a Legion being cut-down and a Chapter being created - it's not as if the Legion's were completely dissolved overnight and then some of them said "Errr hey guys, we could, you know, band together and like call ourselves the Ultramarines, like we used to be, yah?". The Legion's were cut down to the new size and called Chapters, whilst the 'fragments' from the resizing formed new Chapters, from which we get Sigismund & his Black Templar's.

That is the difference. The Black Templar Chapter was created post-Heresy, the Imperial Fist Chapter had always been the same as the Imperial Fist Legion, just far smaller.

Which doesn't change the fact that the Second Founding Chapters have just as much a claim to the history of the original Legion as the First Founding Chapters.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:There's a difference between a Legion being cut-down and a Chapter being created - it's not as if the Legion's were completely dissolved overnight and then some of them said "Errr hey guys, we could, you know, band together and like call ourselves the Ultramarines, like we used to be, yah?". The Legion's were cut down to the new size and called Chapters, whilst the 'fragments' from the resizing formed new Chapters, from which we get Sigismund & his Black Templar's.

That is the difference. The Black Templar Chapter was created post-Heresy, the Imperial Fist Chapter had always been the same as the Imperial Fist Legion, just far smaller.

Maybe I am misreading that, but if not, than I have to say that I disagree with your post.

Sigismund was AT the battle for Terra, and was the Imperial Fists first captain. The Imperial Fists first company wore black with the white cross and were known as the Black Templar. These too fought at the battle for Terra, and were an integral part of the Imperial fists before the legion split up. the only difference between now and then, is that they are two seperate entities. Both existed back before the Heresy, just under the legion name instead of the chapter's banner.

Amanax wrote:Sigismund was AT the battle for Terra

Yup as were most Imperial Fists - Sigismund was, after all, named 'Emperor's Champion' by Dorn in the Imperial Palace.

Amanax wrote:and were an integral part of the Imperial fists before the legion split up. the only difference between now and then, is that they are two seperate entities. Both existed back before the Heresy, just under the legion name instead of the chapter's banner.

Which is the difference. They became a separate, independent entity post-Heresy, which is my point & reasoning why GW didn't give them the same attention in the BRB as those Chapters who retained the identity of the Legions.

It's always struck me as a shame that the Crimson Fists don't get as much attention & love as the BT do when it comes to Second Founding Chapters. They're actually 'senior' to the Black Templars & original Legion/Chapters, considering the Crimson Fists were the Chapter that was prominently depicted on the front cover of Rogue Trader.

They were separate in one fashion, and one fashion only. Recognition. Other than that, they were still the same as before. Same armor. Same Command structure. Same battle doctrine. If anything, the Black Templars of today more resemble the old Imperial Fists than the Imperial Fists do.

And the Crimson Fists might well have been created on the tabletop before the Templar, but during the split, they were the newbies of the legion. They were the ones without much experience. In the currant story they are also a dying chapter. Hard to get good war stories from a faction that is next to gone (Which does sadden me, because what is left of them is pretty cool)

As to the original post though, I have a feeling the lack of artwork is most likely to give other chapters their due. If you flip through the fifth edition book, a lot of those pictures were Templar over other Space Marine Chapters (I am pretty sure there are more in there than any other chapter). Also, as has already been mentioned, Helbrecht has been the front icon for GW's webpage for who knows how long. Oh, and did I mention that last rumors that were going around, the entirety of Dark Millenium was going to be focused on the Templar as the poster children of the Imperium? So I don't think they are gone, just stepping into the shadows for a short time

Lobukia wrote:BT need a significant look. I want to see that fearless, zealot anger brought. Maybe a +1 to DTW, crusade and rage as USR, and a boost to the EC stats.

That being said, I think all of this can be done in about 20 pages of extra stuff (fluff, rules, units, the whole 9 yards). I have well of 2k of BT and I love their theme more than any other, but I don't NEED a stand alone codex. Done right, they can be totally awesome and still be folded into a WD double issue or SM codex.

Am I worried my Hospitallers is space might get screwed? Yeah, I am. But if that happens, I'll just beg my local club to let me run the old dex, which may not be great, but is still really good.

Hey man, check the FAQ.

'Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds' now gives the entire army - bar Neophytes - the special rule Rage.