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2012/08/01 11:54:30
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
So on a different thread we are debating on how to interperate the rule for the vindicare assasin's shield breaker rounds
Exact codex wording -
"When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken."
So when you assign the wound via Deadshot, do you interperate it as follows ?
1) allocate the wound
2) wargear breaks
3) LoS is attempted
4) assuming LoS passed, - Does someone else then take the wound getting their invul saves or cover if they have it?
or perhaps it's:
1) allocate the wound
2) LoS is attempted and assumed passed
3) wound is RE-allocated (exact book word choice) to someone else
4) that new model's invul save if any is then broken
5) roll for saves, if any.
I'm thinking that in order to re-allocate a wound, that would must have been at least allocated to something first. The invul equipment breaking would then be taken place during the same time as a LoS event as it happens before resolving the wound but not sure if that is the right way to think about it.
What do you say YMDC?
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
2012/08/01 12:03:41
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
It'd be one hell of a bank shot, bounce off terminator armor and then bounce off the other terminator armor destroying both power packs in the process......
CREEEEEEEEED
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
2012/08/01 13:15:33
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
I'd say RAW, it would break 2
RAI probably only the one who actually was wounded ( or passed the cover save/FNP roll).
It needs FAQed.
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2012/08/01 13:48:54
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
I'd say the 2nd of those 2 options, makes sense from a narrative point of view, vindy fires shield breaker at IC, someone dives in the way taking the bullet and loses his inv, while IC remains unscathed. Thats how I'd play it if it ever comes up, does need FAQ though.
3000pts 30 wins 2 draws 12 loses
5000pts 13 wins 1 draws 9 losses
WoC "where the points don't matter" 6 wins 0 draws 4 losses
Things my Giant has pocketed for later in AoS: 1 zombie, 2 spirit hosts, 1 banshee, 1 zombie dragon, assorted phoenix guard
X-wing: Scum and Villainy
2012/08/01 13:51:46
Subject: Re:Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Dont have my BRB or Dex with me. Could we get an exact posting of the Look out sir Rule, Shield Breaker and the rule that allows the assasin to pick its target?
2012/08/01 13:53:08
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Look Out, Sir
WhenaWound(orunsaved Wound) is allocated to oneofyour
characters, andthere is anothermodelfrom the same unit within
6", he'sallowed a Look Out,Sirattempt. Thisrepresents the
character ducking back further intotheunit, holding acomrade in
thefine offire, orbeing pushed aside byaselfless ally. Ifnomodel
is in range, then youcannotmake a Look Out,Sirattempt.
To make a Look Out, Sir attempt, roll a D6.
• On a roll of 3or less,the LookOut, Sirattempt fails.
• On a roll of 4+,the LookOut, Sir attempt is successful.
You must picka model from the same unit within 6"
and resolvethe Wound againstthem instead.This can
even be a modelthat is out of range or line of sight of the
Shooting attack.
Vindicare is allowed to allocate wounds and you are allowed to LOS them.
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2012/08/01 14:01:27
Subject: Re:Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
So the intended target loses its invuln, but the LOS! puts the wound on a fresh target that can take an Invul. Thats how I'm following it in the order of events as RAW. As a narrative, it makes no freaking sense, but thats RAW.
I need to return some video tapes. Skulls for the Skull Throne
2012/08/01 14:07:19
Subject: Re:Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
So LOS:
"Once a wound is ALLOCATED to a model......."
Shield Breaker
"When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken."
So it looks like it could break TWO saves but only wound one model?? Oh man its a Shadow Field + Fortune debate all over again!
2012/08/01 14:19:02
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
LOS does not allocate the wound to the new target, it is just resolved against them, so RAW you would eliminate the inv save of your primary target, and with the successful LOS the second target takes the wound, but has full saves to work with
2012/08/02 03:41:43
Subject: Re:Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
I'm of the opinion that the special effect follows the wound (successful LOS) and that model which originally recieved the wound is unscathed.
The keep peice of the LOS rules is what I've highlighted below:
...On a roll of 4+,the LookOut, Sir attempt is successful.
You must pick a model from the same unit within 6"
andresolve the Wound against them instead.
Thoughts?
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2012/08/02 09:57:14
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Wounds can carry rules ie Instant death, concussive etc. Most of these rules happen when the wound is suffered so there is no issue with LOS.
Shiledbreaker is a bit different since it acts on allocation. LOS allows the defending player to resolve the wound against another model. When you resolve a wound, you resolve all its properties on one model. There is no precedent on seperating one property of a wound from another. So shieldbreaker resolves on the model that suffers the wound.
Also we should keep in mind that the wording of the shieldbreaker make it act on allocation in order to prevent invulnerable saves from cancelling it. It was never intented to remove the nvu save of one model and wound another,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 09:58:28
2012/08/02 10:56:22
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
It sounds like this definately needs a FAQ since just about everyone has an opinion that differ quite a bit and it's really not clear how this should go.
I'll probably have to roll off against my opponent to see how they want to play it.
Could mean the end of the fortuned vect bomb?
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2012/08/02 13:21:14
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
It really makes absolutely no sense, how you could wound one guy but break someone elses gear with the same bullet? What is this some magic ricochet? Vindy shoots at IC, so dude dives in the way and takes the bullet, the bullet no longer hits the IC so what exactly is supposed to be doing the damage? I just don't get that argument, does the wargear explode in amazement at what just happened or does the bullet keep going, enough to break through say terminator armour and an iron halo but not enough to inflict any pain on the guy inside? Does the meatshield slow down the bullet exactly enough for that to happen every time? Its the bullet that does the damage. The 'Shield breaker round', if the bullet never hits the intended target then it simply cannot do the damage. How is it not clear that it hurts what it hits. Do people think that LOS works buy the guy getting shot in the chest, then one of his buddies pulls the bullet out and sticks it in their chest instead saying "don't worry, I got this one" and by some miracle the first guy is now fine?
Sorry to rant, but I just how see how that could be justified in any kind of narrative, when I play I want a cohesive narrative to the battle, thats one of the things I love about 40k. If you're going all WAAC then maybe you could get round this on this not so great wording, but it would be bound to start an argument and I fear that game would become very not fun. Like I said before it needs to be FAQed for clarity, but before then play what makes the most sense. The same bullet hurting 2 people, one of which it never technically hit, doesn't make sense. Hurting 1 person that it did actually hit does make sense.
3000pts 30 wins 2 draws 12 loses
5000pts 13 wins 1 draws 9 losses
WoC "where the points don't matter" 6 wins 0 draws 4 losses
Things my Giant has pocketed for later in AoS: 1 zombie, 2 spirit hosts, 1 banshee, 1 zombie dragon, assorted phoenix guard
X-wing: Scum and Villainy
2012/08/02 13:29:00
Subject: Re:Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
magic bullets of the future? I've seen plenty in sci fi movies that do werid stuff like curving bullets. I think it could be possible given a world of psychic powers and walking terminators along with daemons and fancy tech reserved for specialists.
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
2012/08/02 14:04:27
Subject: Re:Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
A - "he hits both of them"
B - 'What how?"
A - "his bullets are magic and bendy"
B - "Where does it say that?"
A - "It doesn't but they are"
B - "that doesn't make sense, you're just making stuff u-"
A - "Hush"
I do love that film, but yeah theres no reference to magic bullets or anything like it. Apart from trying to get round a technicality I really don't see this working, and really doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game.
3000pts 30 wins 2 draws 12 loses
5000pts 13 wins 1 draws 9 losses
WoC "where the points don't matter" 6 wins 0 draws 4 losses
Things my Giant has pocketed for later in AoS: 1 zombie, 2 spirit hosts, 1 banshee, 1 zombie dragon, assorted phoenix guard
X-wing: Scum and Villainy
2012/08/02 14:11:08
Subject: Re:Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Corinthius wrote:Though I doubt that argument would work:
A - "he hits both of them"
B - 'What how?"
A - "his bullets are magic and bendy"
B - "Where does it say that?"
A - "It doesn't but they are"
B - "that doesn't make sense, you're just making stuff u-"
A - "Hush"
I do love that film, but yeah theres no reference to magic bullets or anything like it. Apart from trying to get round a technicality I really don't see this working, and really doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game.
Overall I agree with you that the spirit of the game is where we should play. I just don't really understand how they want us to play this thing as it's a 5th edition rule that doesn't really work without a FAQ to clarify it but as I see so many logic problems such as monstrous creatures not really able to attack guys in buildings a floor up when the MC is bigger than the building itself that I no longer really know what they specifically have in mind and the spirit of the game really just comes down to what me and the guy I'm playing may feel like at any particular point in time.
Heck, with the current WD release, people around here are getting quite confused now just what a daemon should have for an invul save and mass confusion over various typos like the necron gun range or just what the heck you are supposed to use if someone has a digital codex on the ipad and someone pulls up the GWFAQ page on their iphone.
I personally think it should just be played that you blow up the first guy's wargear then the wound goes to someone else and they to take their save against the wound as normal as it seems to be some sort of middle ground to what the heck is going on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 14:16:28
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
2012/08/02 14:38:16
Subject: Re:Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
I personally think it should just be played that you blow up the first guy's wargear then the wound goes to someone else and they to take their save against the wound as normal as it seems to be some sort of middle ground to what the heck is going on.
Thats not really a compromise, thats just what you said in the first place. Again the narrative hear makes no sense. What is the bullet doing here? Where exactly is it going? Explain its path here. Like I said before, play what makes sense if there is ambiguity. One bullet hitting 2 guys, but that can only hurt the 2nd guy in a very specific way and that doesn't effect the other guy in that way, makes no sense. The bullet does the damage, theres no fluff to say its magic, its fired by the best snipers in the Imperium but it isn't some magic homing bullet, if it were it would ignore LOS all together (which it might if deadshot gets FAQed).
3000pts 30 wins 2 draws 12 loses
5000pts 13 wins 1 draws 9 losses
WoC "where the points don't matter" 6 wins 0 draws 4 losses
Things my Giant has pocketed for later in AoS: 1 zombie, 2 spirit hosts, 1 banshee, 1 zombie dragon, assorted phoenix guard
X-wing: Scum and Villainy
2012/08/02 19:07:41
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Wouldn't this follow that rule in the book where if two things happen at the same time then the player whose turn it is gets to decide the order of how they operate?
2012/08/02 22:08:24
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Not related as they are not happening simultaneously. LOS only occurs after wound allocation.
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2012/08/02 22:48:04
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Deadshot wrote:Not related as they are not happening simultaneously. LOS only occurs after wound allocation.
?? Both, according to what people have said here, happen on wound allocation. Are you confusing "unsaved wound" with "wound"? Because LOS happens on unsaved wounds when the unit all has the same save...so, if one guy has a different save then it would happen prior to rolling to save the wound. And, generally speaking, the vindicare will be shooting this round at some model that is most likely an IC or model in a squad that is the only one with an invul. Thus, making it's LOS before rolling to save the wound.
Regardless, LOS only happens on wound allocation as well, whether it's saved or unsaved (depending on same or mixed saves).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 22:48:32
2012/08/02 22:54:24
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
LOS is kinda referred to as reallocation (last line of the rule) so, much like a reroll, it can be assumed that the initial allocation never happened.
But hey that is me trying to justify the most logical resolution.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 23:02:11
Church: So it is a sword, It just happens to function like a key in very specific situations.
Caboose: Or it's a key all the time, and when you stick it in people, it unlocks their death.
2012/08/02 23:08:25
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Thanatos_elNyx wrote:LOS is kinda referred to as reallocation (last line of the rule) so, much like a reroll, it can be assumed that the initial allocation never happened.
But hey that is me trying to justify the most logical resolution.
Exactly right, the initial hit never happens. I don't know why people are struggling so hard with that concept. I'm not even that sure why this thread exists it seems so obvious. You can only hurt what you hit, thats the point of LOS, someone else takes the hit so they get hurt instead not as well! The LOS roll determines whether or not you hit your target or someone blocks your shot. If they pass LOS then you never hit the first guy, just because you rolled a dice to hit already doesn't mean that you hit your intended target as thats what LOS is there for! Thats the point of it!
3000pts 30 wins 2 draws 12 loses
5000pts 13 wins 1 draws 9 losses
WoC "where the points don't matter" 6 wins 0 draws 4 losses
Things my Giant has pocketed for later in AoS: 1 zombie, 2 spirit hosts, 1 banshee, 1 zombie dragon, assorted phoenix guard
X-wing: Scum and Villainy
2012/08/03 09:08:50
Subject: Vindicare - shield breaker rounds and LoS
Its not about that. Its about allocation. Once you roll to hit and do so, Vindicare says Mr Chaoter Master will be taking the wound. He has now been allocated the wound so his his Iron Halo, Storm Shield and TDA if he has any of those, are now non-functional. Then LOS happens, however the hit was allocated to Mr CM and he loses invuln.
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