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Last Days of The Angels at Indiegogo seeks funding to build the largest 40K diorama




Didn't really see a discussion on this on page 1 or 2, but if I missed it I apologize.

Interesting and ambitious "story-telling-40K-diorama" Last Days of The Angels seeks funds on Indiegogo to build "the largest diorama ever" (or rather a compilation of dioramas".

They guy behind it from BallisticSkill4 Painting Studio was also kind enough to answer me a few questions for my blog.

I find it interesting how the $5 and $10 pledges don't even get the PDF so they can see the diorama that they helped pay for...

I'd have thought that the making-of video would be the add-on, not the PDF...

What's next?
"Hi, I want a Death Korps of Krieg army but don't have enough money. Help me to fund it on Indigogo."

Kroothawk wrote:What's next?
"Hi, I want a Death Korps of Krieg army but don't have enough money. Help me to fund it on Indigogo."

/shrug

Still better than professional companies like CMON or Mantic co-opting Kickstarter to promote products they could well develop, launch and promote the "traditional" way.

Hell, they even run ads for their Kickstarer (http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/).

Kinda defeats the purpose of having crowd-funding sites for the "creative" and "spleeny" that require them precisely because they are not businesses if they just turn into elaborate ad-networks that companies use to "sell" people "pre-orders" while neatly sidestepping any regular customer protection.

Kroothawk wrote:What's next?
"Hi, I want a Death Korps of Krieg army but don't have enough money. Help me to fund it on Indigogo."

We've already passed that threshold.

I've seen Indigogo's that are literally.... "I'm a poor College Student, please buy me Mass Effect 3"

The campaign was flex funding and at the minimum amount of $500.

I think he had 1 pledge for $1.

Anyway, I really need a couple of Warhounds. So I'm off to Indiegogo to see if YOU ALL can make that happen.

Kroothawk wrote:What's next?
"Hi, I want a Death Korps of Krieg army but don't have enough money. Help me to fund it on Indigogo."

QFT. This is a nonsense, or at least cheeky.

Zweischneid wrote:
Still better than professional companies like CMON or Mantic co-opting Kickstarter to promote products they could well develop, launch and promote the "traditional" way.

This is also true. But this doesn't invalidate Kroothawk's statement.

It is supposed that the crowd-funding is intended to serve as a way to launch 'business' or 'ideas' for something that you create, something more solid with you can offer products or services, not make a diorama... So, both things are 'wrong' in that sense, or at least is what i think...

crowdfunding can fund "artistic" projects just fine, it's used for that plenty. Just not generally in the "gaming" category.

besides, why the (*^(* hate against established companies funding a distinctly separate project via crowdfunding (the very definition, only some people seem to hate established companies as a matter of course?), giving customers a substantial bonus/discount in the process? You'd be more than welcome in Cuba, no doubt.
...no really, go ahead. move. won't miss you here for a second.

Hoarmurel wrote:

It is supposed that the crowd-funding is intended to serve as a way to launch 'business' or 'ideas' for something that you create, something more solid with you can offer products or services, not make a diorama... So, both things are 'wrong' in that sense, or at least is what i think...

I disagree. Here is what it says on the Kickstarter guidelines (yes I know the above Diorama is on Indiegogo, but hey).

Kickstarter wrote:
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.

Making a Diorama fits very well IMO. Not dissimilar to, say, a sculpture or painting that would qualify as art. The Last Days of The Angels Indiegogo above even aims at making a "movie with miniatures" and tell a story with it. It's a 100% fit to those guidelines.

CMON in contrast IS a continuous businesses. Just because they start a new shell-company for each of their products doesn't change that.. it's still the same creative team, sculptors, etc.. churning out project after project after projects. It's a clear, obvious and blatant misuse of the platform which violates, at least in spirit, the very first term of Kickstarter's terms of use.

Same for Reaper or Mantic, though the latter at least have stopped doing Kickstarters I believe.

[edit]

Also note that there ARE sites for crowd-funding businesses and all other things that are supposed to be profitable in the end, e.g. this one, which would be the more appropriate fit for CMON and the like I would think.

Of course, the hitch is that proper investors (as opposed to "backers") eventually want a share of the cake, not an overpriced pre-order of the product, which CMON isn't likely to give them.

Zweischneid wrote:CMON in contrast IS a continuous business.

So?

Zweischneid wrote:Just because they start a new shell-company for each of their products doesn't change that..

AFAIK they don't; each is run as a distinct product, but CMoN itself is the entity responsible. not that it matters.

Zweischneid wrote:it's still the same creative team, sculptors, etc.. churning out project after project after projects.

Reeeeaallly? I believe Soda Pop, Mike McVey and Guillotine Games would feel slightly short-changed here? not that it's even remotely relevant.

Zweischneid wrote:It's a clear, obvious and blatant misuse of the platform which violates, at least in spirit, the very first term of Kickstarter's terms of use.

...now you're just banging your face on the keyboard.

HOW in the heavens is sedition wars not a clear, distinctly separate project - almost like, you know, a band making an album, like in those very terms you quote - just as zombicide was, and the soda pop KS is set with distinct targets, providing specifically those in perks to backers?

if your argument is going to be that "hey, they sell more of it afterwards so it's like 'starting a business'!" would you also argue that a band funding an album via KS would not be allowed to sell it separately afterwards? if no, your argument fails on internal inconsistency. if yes, move to cuba and STFU.

Whatever the true purpose of crowdfunding websites, one would have to conclude that given that this particular project is nowhere near close to getting funding, the paying public have voted with their wallet.

Whether you think it is a noble cause or not, people don't seem to be in a particular rush to hand their money over for it.

Bolognesus wrote:

if your argument is going to be that "hey, they sell more of it afterwards so it's like 'starting a business'!" would you also argue that a band funding an album via KS would not be allowed to sell it separately afterwards? if no, your argument fails on internal inconsistency. if yes, move to cuba and STFU.

I would say that a band that wants to make a living/business as professional musicians shouldn't do a Kickstarter for their first album, but get proper investors (that is, in my humble opinion, what capitalists do, or not?).

And it has nothing to do with Cuba. I am a big fan of CMON's stuff, etc.., . It's just on the wrong side of the street. There's plenty of funding to satisfy any and all capitalist urges, including crowd-funding.

Just because I wouldn't like to see people selling beer in a Church doesn't mean I am against people selling beer on principle.

So anyway.....

I was checking this thing out and I think you should make the $10 the .pdf and the $20 a mini from the diorama (not an actual diorama like the $75 level).

That should make people feel warm and fuzzy and also aide in deflecting the idea that this looks like a giant cash grab to build huge Space Marine and Tyranid armies.

Also, every Blood Angel and every Blood Angel Successor Chapter (except Lamentors) answered the call, not just the Flesh Tearers. Personally, I don't agree with the idea of Meph dying, but it's your show. Also, don't leave out the Sanguinor (who is sure to show up) and Astorath.

Good Luck!

Zweischneid wrote:

Bolognesus wrote:

if your argument is going to be that "hey, they sell more of it afterwards so it's like 'starting a business'!" would you also argue that a band funding an album via KS would not be allowed to sell it separately afterwards? if no, your argument fails on internal inconsistency. if yes, move to cuba and STFU.

I would say that a band that wants to make a living/business as professional musicians shouldn't do a Kickstarter for their first album, but get proper investors (that is, in my humble opinion, what capitalists do, or not?).

...so now you're gently moving the goalposts away from what KS, and crowdfunding providers in general, views as appropriate to what **you** would be most comfortable with?
because that sure as feth wasn't the argument just a few posts ago.
what you like or dislike I'm not even going to comment on; that's entirely your business. The way you presume that whichever way *you* are most comfortable with is how everyone should approach raising investment in their product/project reeks of a Zweinschneid-centric view of the universe, however.

Zweischneid wrote:And it has nothing to do with Cuba. I am a big fan of CMON's stuff, etc.., . It's just on the wrong side of the street. There's plenty of funding to satisfy any and all capitalist urges, including crowd-funding.

really? "wrong side of the street"? not sure if it's a language problem but in my mind that's code for "hey they have too much money they shouldn't be allowed the same privileges as us - they're mean!". so yeah, still Cuba.
And besides, if its just that you don't like this, and have since quietly stopped arguing it shouldn't be permitted, what the feth is stopping you from just not participating?
Hey, I see plenty of KS campaigns I dislike, some of them with a passion. Tentacle Bento springs to mind, for example. I believe I stated my dislike in a thread or two on that topic as well. I **might** have added a couple of ad-hominems regarding TB funders as well (though strictly in jest; each his own hobby/fetish/whatever). You don't, however, see me arguing that KS should not have been permitted (and in fact I was very much against KS canceling it and have grown a healthy suspicion of the KS team because of that incident).

You, however, seem to not grasp the idea that not every corner of the internet is there just to appease you.

Zweischneid wrote:...I wouldn't like to see people selling beer in a Church...

you bore.

Bolognesus wrote:
...so now you're gently moving the goalposts away from what KS, and crowdfunding providers in general, views as appropriate to what **you** would be most comfortable with?
because that sure as feth wasn't the argument just a few posts ago.
what you like or dislike I'm not even going to comment on; that's entirely your business. The way you presume that whichever way *you* are most comfortable with is how everyone should approach raising investment in their product/project reeks of a Zweinschneid-centric view of the universe, however.

I am not saying anything about "crowdfunding providers in general". This business is as diverse as it gets.

I am saying that by their own terms of use, the specific sites known as Kickstarter.com and Indiegogo.com are clearly aiming at projects of the sort mentioned in the OP and less at projects of the sort done by CMON. There are surely other crowdfunders out there (e.g. Microventures), where the verdict would be quite the inverse.

Nothing about what I am "comfortable" with, just what those sites say about themselves.

Bolognesus wrote:
really? "wrong side of the street"? not sure if it's a language problem but in my mind that's code for "hey they have too much money they shouldn't be allowed the same privileges as us - they're mean!". so yeah, still Cuba.

I am not sure quantity of money was ever an issue I spoke of? Words in my mouth much? And if, as it seems in your post, Cuba has indeed become the World's last bastion for Freedom of Speech, maybe I should go there. Who would have thought that only in Cuba, of all places, can customers and the general populace speak freely about unsavory business practices?

Bolognesus wrote:
And besides, if its just that you don't like this, and have since quietly stopped arguing it shouldn't be permitted, what the feth is stopping you from just not participating?
Hey, I see plenty of KS campaigns I dislike, some of them with a passion.

I think you are missing the start. I didn't start the argument. I merely responded to posts that considered the Last Days of The Angels Indiegogo as "inappropriate" by pointing out that this is exactly the sort of project Kickstarter and Indiegogo were set up to support (again, by their own words), while those better known Kickstarters that recently made a big splash were the ones "stretching the concept".

You, however, seem to not grasp the idea that not every corner of the internet is there just to appease you.

I am not sure how this has anything to do with "internet made to appease me". It's just putting stuff where it belongs. You don't upload Porn to Youtube, you go to a porn site. You don't put music on Facebook, you go to MySpace or Soundcloud. And you don't put business on Kickstarter, you go to Microventures or Peerbackers. You don't look for 40K rumours on Mashable, you go to DakkaDakka. You don't start a Miniature-Diorama-Art-Project on Appbackr, you go to Indiegogo. Simple really.

Zweischneid wrote:

Bolognesus wrote:
...so now you're gently moving the goalposts away from what KS, and crowdfunding providers in general, views as appropriate to what **you** would be most comfortable with?
because that sure as feth wasn't the argument just a few posts ago.
what you like or dislike I'm not even going to comment on; that's entirely your business. The way you presume that whichever way *you* are most comfortable with is how everyone should approach raising investment in their product/project reeks of a Zweinschneid-centric view of the universe, however.

I am not saying anything about "crowdfunding providers in general". This business is as diverse as it gets.

I am saying that by their own terms of use, the specific sites known as Kickstarter.com and Indiegogo.com are clearly aiming at projects of the sort mentioned in the OP and less at projects of the sort done by CMON. There are surely other crowdfunders out there (e.g. Microventures), where the verdict would be quite the inverse.

I don't get how you can so completely misunderstand what kickstarter is for.
It gives project creators (relatively) obligation-free capital, without having to go through traditional investment routes where they want interest, mortgages, artistic direction or controlling interests. It lets them show a business plan to a wider community, rather than some bankers in a board room who see 50 similar projects a week and have no real idea why Battle for Alabaster is so much cooler than Last Days of the Angels.
Have a look at pretty much every successful project on kickstarter: they are products of some kind that could not be produced (in large numbers) without financial backing. Backers essentially pay for the product and kickstarter is used to determine when they reach a viable production point. The point is to avoid the traditional methods of raising capital (investors) as these are often unfavourable to the artist.
For established companies like CMON, Reaper, Mantic, kickstarter is an interactive, robust and popular platform to raise capital so that these products can be produced NOW, not later or never. If you watch the Reaper Bones video, they talk about how "we could convert all our stuff to Bones, but that would take 5 years". They could do this from their own website - and pay thousands of dollars for developers to make a system that is not nearly as robust or easy to use - or they could take a financial hit and attempt to produce the minis on what funds they have saved - which given the miniature industry, wouldn't be very much.

Basically, if CMoN, Reaper, Ouya weren't supposed to be on Kickstarter, Kickstarter would kick them off. Whatever your opinions are, they're obviously not in line with the Kickstarter folks on how their platform should be used.

Trasvi wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Bolognesus wrote:
...so now you're gently moving the goalposts away from what KS, and crowdfunding providers in general, views as appropriate to what **you** would be most comfortable with?
because that sure as feth wasn't the argument just a few posts ago.
what you like or dislike I'm not even going to comment on; that's entirely your business. The way you presume that whichever way *you* are most comfortable with is how everyone should approach raising investment in their product/project reeks of a Zweinschneid-centric view of the universe, however.

I am not saying anything about "crowdfunding providers in general". This business is as diverse as it gets.

I am saying that by their own terms of use, the specific sites known as Kickstarter.com and Indiegogo.com are clearly aiming at projects of the sort mentioned in the OP and less at projects of the sort done by CMON. There are surely other crowdfunders out there (e.g. Microventures), where the verdict would be quite the inverse.

I don't get how you can so completely misunderstand what kickstarter is for.
It gives project creators (relatively) obligation-free capital, without having to go through traditional investment routes where they want interest, mortgages, artistic direction or controlling interests. It lets them show a business plan to a wider community, rather than some bankers in a board room who see 50 similar projects a week and have no real idea why Battle for Alabaster is so much cooler than Last Days of the Angels.
Have a look at pretty much every successful project on kickstarter: they are products of some kind that could not be produced (in large numbers) without financial backing. Backers essentially pay for the product and kickstarter is used to determine when they reach a viable production point. The point is to avoid the traditional methods of raising capital (investors) as these are often unfavourable to the artist.
For established companies like CMON, Reaper, Mantic, kickstarter is an interactive, robust and popular platform to raise capital so that these products can be produced NOW, not later or never. If you watch the Reaper Bones video, they talk about how "we could convert all our stuff to Bones, but that would take 5 years". They could do this from their own website - and pay thousands of dollars for developers to make a system that is not nearly as robust or easy to use - or they could take a financial hit and attempt to produce the minis on what funds they have saved - which given the miniature industry, wouldn't be very much.

Basically, if CMoN, Reaper, Ouya weren't supposed to be on Kickstarter, Kickstarter would kick them off. Whatever your opinions are, they're obviously not in line with the Kickstarter folks on how their platform should be used.[u]

Exactly!

Very well said - I think I'll 'bookmark' this explanation for future complaints against pretty much anyone complaining about pretty much anything 'not belonging' on Kickstarter!

Trasvi wrote:

I don't get how you can so completely misunderstand what kickstarter is for.
--snip--

.

I am not sure where your problem is.

I know perfectly well how Kickstarter is used.

I know perfectly well how and why CMON, etc.. use it these days.

I know perfectly how Kickstarter themselves finds fielding Million-Dollar Business-Ventures likely more attractive than funding the money-starved creatives it supported in its early days.

I also know why Exxon defrauded US state governments on royalties, why BP spilled the Mexican Gulf and why Osama Bin Laden bombed the twin-towers.

I don't agree with any of them. But just because I don't agree with the dynamics at work, doesn't mean I don't understand them.


Either way, I don't get why you don't understand that Kickstarter, Indiegogo openly and explicitly (if, perhaps only for PR these days), claim to support precisely those non-profitable, non-business, individual spleen-projects such as Toyquarium or Last Days of The Angels.

They might be artistically flawed. They might be unappealing. They might be badly executed and presented. They might be decidedly uncool. They might not be worth a cent of money from any backer. But they are - black on white - what Kickstarter and Indiegogo want to see on their site. This are the "roots" of where these sites come from, perhaps elusively, just like Facebook once was an "exclusive" network limited to Ivy League University Students or Pinterest was, until a few days ago, an invite-only club. Projects playing to their original purpose certainly are not "wrong".

Indeed, Facebook may be worth billions today and success may make right, but I thought it was "cooler" in 2006 before their was Ads and Zynga. Just my opinion. Likewise, Kickstarer, etc.. are - in my humble opinion - also loosing their "cool" by the way they are going. Feel free to disagree.

Honestly, why care so much ? If it doesn't appeal to you, or if you don't agree with their reasoning, don't support it.

Personally, this specific crowd-funding effort isn't worth my money any more than this debate is worth more time than it takes me to type my 2 cents.

Crowd-funding can do good works (i.e. - The Bullied Bus Monitor who got a retirement package instead of a nice vacation) or they can be a venue for digital pan-handlers. We simply choose to support or not based on what moves us as individuals. Individuals that make up a crowd ... funding or not.

I wouldn't want the legalese of rules to negate a possible cause or campaign from being made available when, to by bypass it, all I have to do is simply "click" to navigate away from it.

I'm just getting really tired of seeing so many crowd funding projects on dakka. I just counted 8-9 on the front page of news/rumors. It gets a little tiring.

I for one think its pretty darned ambitious.

Might be worth watching in a trainwreck sort of a way, or something along the lines of watching something different, thats for sure.

My only question is why not have live, 24 hour cameras, and some feedback computers on hand to shoot the stuff with, while these guys are going through on the project. Maybe give a few lessions here and there like a long range painting/ modeling directory for 40K stuff.

"This is how I put together a rhino, being shot full of rockets.... Heres how to do shredded metal... Here's a great way to crank out fifty terminators in this and that color scheme."... etc.etc.


Then... after the fact, these guys could even cut up the feeds and sell it as seperate painting and modeling guides.

Not honestly seeing them make it, but theres always that chance, that I never say never.


I for one am burned out on KS and Indigogo projects. Thinking of cranking out a few of my own, just to recoupe my fundings of others projects.


One in particular comes to mind.

Paint and Play games. a map, a few figures, some dice, paint racks and a storyline. Sell them cheap, sell alot. Then the add ons, then side specific encounter packs.

Take what Goalsystem did, and go the extra mile, except I would be cranking them out in Modern, Scifi, Superhero, and Fantasy geners.

Needs some work still, but it may yet happen.

Er... off topic, sorry.


I'd like to watch this one because I'm genuinly interested in what exactly the painted boundary line is on KS, and Indigogo stuff. Looking around, some of them are fragging out there- yet they get funded.