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Ok, so today I played 2 games one against Space Wolves and one against Necrons...

Both players had such a hard time dealing with my Farseer, Archon and Harlequins...

In any cover the Shadowseer gives a 2+ cover save and my Archon has a 2++ save...

And it gets rerolled, besides the one time I rolled 3 ones in a row(1 for 2++ save, 1 for reroll, and 1 for Lookout Sir)...

Anyways, the Space Wolves basically spent about 2 turns of units shooting at them which had Flamers still only barely managed to do 1 wound to my archon and cause 2 casualties...

Same thing for Necron army, shooting at it is not a good idea...

I think the only way would probably be shoot a large number of cheap shots at it and hope for the Shadowfield to fail? and then you can tear them up?

what do you guys think is the way to counter it?

Thundercannon no cover save ammo

2++ re-rollable save though and getting a pain token for them is easy, so 2++ re-rollable + feel no pain

Steel Angel wrote:Thundercannon no cover save ammo

Which neither Space Wolves nor Necrons have, barring allies for a very specific, situational unit.

Makutsu wrote:2++ re-rollable save though and getting a pain token for them is easy, so 2++ re-rollable + feel no pain

Except they don't have power from pain so there's that.

the Archon does and he's the one that's taking damages, yeah but if it comes down to the FNP then the unit is pretty in danger, unless I'm rolling the 2+ cover save and FNP

I dont get how you are getting hit with flamers, and still soaking up all the wounds with the archon. Unless your opponent placed it so the archon was closest to the unit he was shooting with (which was stupid) the rest of the unit should have been taking a gak load of hits with no cover or armor saves allowed, just a 5++ from holofields

5+ rerollable saves are pretty dangerous...

Makutsu wrote:5+ rerollable saves are pretty dangerous...

granted, and some times the dice just love/hate you

but still, 4 flamers on a squad like the op discribed would leave very little if anything left, and the following assault would/ should remove whats left

Psychic shreik. Ignores cover and armor saves.

Except when runes of warding stops that from happening too much on a LD 10 unit. And while it ignores cover and armor, if you're placed badly the Archon still sucks up the wounds. Faced this unit with Eldrad in it and it was a beast.

The solution is simple, tell them to stop shooting right at the Archon and move around the flank before shooting first.

Or force him to pick one way to go, have two units which he wants to hit, make him show his rear to one of your gunny units. If he is going up the flank, advance your far flank and hit him while pulling the endangered one back.

Or just hit them with manticores. I don't care where your archon is placed, I'll just bomb the hell out of that area until there is nothing left.

Obvious ways to get around (not just for SW):

Move so that the Archon is not the closest model. Also note that the Archons Shadowfield still breaks if he passes his FNP (and I'm not sure if he can use Fortune to re-roll FNP).

Block LoS to the Archon (obviously this combines with the above tactic) - he can't be allocated to if no one can see him. With Rhino chassis' (a staple of SW lists) this is pretty simple even without getting up close.

Bring psychic defense (Wolves do this well, just don't blow your own brains out by casting against Warding). Without Fortune its nowhere near as scary.

Bring Barrage templates to counter the closest model issue/counter the cover save issues. Wolves get Vindicators.

Use flamers to toast the Harlies/ force the Harlies to come out of cover to get you.

Ignore the unit and shoot other stuff. Its a foot based deathstar and you can still kite them if you are smart about it. Be glad its not a JetCouncil or BeastStar which will reliable hit you in the face turn 2.

If you are shooting at it you want massed S6+ shooting (Scatter Lasers, Multilasers, Psybacks etc), this will at least give your opponent pause to allocate everything to his T3 ICs.

I positioned them so that he was only getting about 4 - 5 hits,
failed 1 and then the archon was 2nd in position so 2++ saves.

He brought those flamer planes or the gliders or whatever they were called...

Yeah so next turn they were all gone...

He did block me off later in the game but I made sure no one was a threat and went into cover and got a 2+ cover save ...

Don't know what Barrage is so can't say...

if it does allocate to my Archon there's a rerollable 2++, 2+ look out sir, and FNP...

This combo can become gakky with some bad rolls but overall it has been crazy...and it takes your opponent the entire turn of dedicated fire to maybe take it out...

I also ran 3 kablite gunboats with a kablite Venom and Trueborn Venom, it was pretty menacing as it was...
Leaving them alone for an extra turn means so much more damage...

My friend the Space Wolf player said that normally people don't bring flamers that much though...not sure how true that is...

He proposed of using combi flamers and something else terminators...

One more thing I might be bringing a Wave Serpant to let them ride on which gives them the mobility they need as well

I know I'm missing something, but wouldn't Focus Fire work here? ...especially if followed by an assault.

Get rid of the rif raf and then tear them up

focus fire only allows you to choose between models with different cover saves

motyak wrote:

Or just hit them with manticores. I don't care where your archon is placed, I'll just bomb the hell out of that area until there is nothing left.

this

Drop pod for the SW would be great too. Put a squad on a facing opposite the ICs and tear into the 'quins.

Assaulting this squad doesn't seem unbalanced for the SW either. I'd go that route with wolves.

Yup, as people have said in here the Archon is the tip and only shots coming through her can use her save.

Mobile units with cover denying weapons that get round the flanks of side will turn the unit to paste instantly. Drop pod sternguard, bikers with flamers etc, doubly so for armies like Eldar, SW and Nids that can shut down psi powers to drop Fortune.

Makutsu wrote:if it does allocate to my Archon there's a rerollable 2++, 2+ look out sir, and FNP...

But he'll lose the Shadow Field after failing even once and it's only the Archon that has FNP. They're a T3 one-trick pony that is going to small pieces the moment that trick fails. So no, not too tough but certainly nasty if your opponent fails to deal with it properly.

He only fails if the reroll fails as well, which would be 1/36 chance,
then you would need to deal with 4+/2+ cover save.

I feel like unless you are expected to see them, I think the majority of the armies might have some troubles dealing with it.

I know there are ways around it I do think about things before I use it, with pre-measure as well it makes it even more difficult. Not saying unbeatable but very hard to deal with...

If using CSM or Daemons, use Lash or Pavane to move the Archon away from the front, or to move the unit out of cover.

Makutsu wrote:He only fails if the reroll fails as well

True, but there's powers in some armies that force you to reroll succesful saves and so effectively cancel out Fortune.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, the combo doesn't quite work as one might think. Check this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/467514.page#4618072

In short, if you have a 2++ Archon in front of harlies (mixed saves) you have to LOS before rolling saves. You don't get to save and FNP with the Archon and then LOS off the wounds if he fails. Makes it a bit less scary.

motyak wrote: I don't care where your archon is placed, I'll just bomb the hell out of that area until there is nothing left.

I think this is a very appropriate response for someone with a Mal Reynolds avatar

Spetulhu wrote:

Makutsu wrote:He only fails if the reroll fails as well

True, but there's powers in some armies that force you to reroll succesful saves and so effectively cancel out Fortune.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, the combo doesn't quite work as one might think. Check this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/467514.page#4618072

In short, if you have a 2++ Archon in front of harlies (mixed saves) you have to LOS before rolling saves. You don't get to save and FNP with the Archon and then LOS off the wounds if he fails. Makes it a bit less scary.

Not sure if true or not that's what I thought as well, but in the shooting phase LoS BRB says any wounds (or unsaved wounds) can attempt a LoS.
And I know that you can't do FNP then LoS because to trigger FNP it has to be already an unsaved wound

It doesn't make sense for you to get hit and then do LoS , that's what I thought first when I played my first game...

Regardless the Archon will be placed the closest unless you move around it

Hahaha, powerful? No.

Somewhat difficult to kill while costing as much as they do is reasonable. Even then, they barely help you win actual games. Defeating this army is as simple as killing the tiny amount of whatever else they have.