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Ok, so I'm building a new Space Marine army. My existing MEQs are all assault based, and I want a shooting based one. So I'm building a gunline army that I'm painting up as Imperial Fists. So far, the project is coming along nicely, but I do have a minor delima: how to arm the squad leaders in the Tactical Squads that make up the core of my planned force?

The conventional wisdom is to give the Sgt model some sort of close combat weapon like a power sword or fist to add a little extra "oompf" in case they have to fight in melee. I disagree with this in a gunline as that is what the counter-assault units are for. As far as I can tell, my options as as follows:

-Leave them with their default bolter. This is the cheapest (no points) option, but it's the most lack luster. It really adds nothing to the unit, but it does save a few points.
-A single plasma pistol. This is a pretty cheap option and gives a nice bit of extra punch at close range. It can also be used to damage light vehicles from the flank, etc.
-A combi-weapon. This is another inexpensive option. A combi-plasma has the same use as the plasma pistol above but with longer range and two shots at close range. A combi-melta is pretty much the same, albiet with a shorter range. It also gives a little more anti-tank firepower in case an enemy vehicle gets too close. Finally a combi-flamer provides a little "free d3 hits" insurance in case the unit is charged. The down side to all of these is that they are one use items.
-Two plasma pistols. I do like this option from a purely visual standpoint and since this is the first time since Rogue Trader that one can shoot a pair of pistols with any model, it would be fun to try. It does what the single plasma pistol does, twice as good. The down side is that it's very expensive at 30 points a model.

I suppose the correct answer here is to mix it up and do all the options. What do you lot think?

TR

Don't forget the stormbolter, I run a sgt with one and hes never let me down.

Doomhunter wrote:Don't forget the stormbolter, I run a sgt with one and hes never let me down.

Yeah, I missed that option. But to be fair, with the changes to rapid fire, the storm bolter is really not that much better than the default bolt gun in my opinion.

TR

10pts for an extra shot at 24" isn't that worth it, really.

I give my SGTs Bolt Pistols / Chainswords to give me some hitting power if i get charged. One of them took out a Nurgle Biker Sorcerer.

One of them has a Power Fist. Just to make someone think twice about charging that unit, or to go with my melta gun and take out a tank, punch Dreadnoughts, etc.

With 6th, I try to keep my Sergeants as cheap as possible, in general. Been working fairly well for me.

Storm bolters ain't a bad option if you ask me. The basic bolter works fine also. That's what I'd give my shooty sergeants.

I'd never give any of my Sarges a Plasma Pistol. Combi weapons, maybe, depends on what role the Tacticals are to play. I usually run a power weapon or a power fist on my Sarge, at least I did in 5th.

I've been giving my sarges meltabombs with bolters and a powersword. The melta bombs mean that dreads and tanks have to watch out when they come near, much more so than just the usual Krak Grenades, and the powersword I've been finding has been useful against other powerarmour armies, it just gives me a little bit of extra oomph when it comes to slaying marines. I could however see myself simplly listing power weapon and then choosing the appropriate weapon for the opponent. For example; Maul for 4+ or GEQs, and axes if I'm facing TEQs. I've found that the combi-flamer is only good when used on the offensive. Defensively it just doesn't bring as much killing power as it can on the offensive, and losing that potential really sucks.

I wouldn't give the Sergeant dual plasma-pistols. I can see the attraction, but at the end of the day that's a 1W, 3+ model with two chances for Gets Hot that costs you more than a Terminator. And if you're able to fire them within 12" at an approaching unit the chances are you'll only get to do so once.

I would take combi-weapons, as they can support the special weapon of the unit. If a nearby vehicle pops up, you now have two melta shots to throw at it. If you get charged, you now have two flamer weapons to use in Overwatch. You will still have the same Gets Hot problem with plasma, but at least it's much cheaper this way if you do roll that 1.

I also prefer combi-weapons on the sarges. You can make their firepower work hand in hand with the type of shooting you're having the squad deliver.

Basic bolter. Combi weapon if you really want one. If you are worried about close combat, take all the points you saved by not buying your sergeants upgrades and buy an assault squad as a counter-charge unit. Or more guns to kill things before they get to you.

As long as you aren't giving up combat tactics for some other special rule, you can try to break out of any bad combat.

Either combi weapon or nothing, melta bombs if you're feeling threatened by vehicles.

Combi weapon gets my vote.

Not realy sure why, it just does

Though I think there's the "what if" factor that yur opponent will go through. With it being a one shot they could waste all game avoiding that guy, waiting for him to fire it off before wading in.

Maybe :-S

Not likely, not off the one shot. That is, unless it's a melta shot attached to a unit with a meltagun. In Vulkan's army.
No, it's more about getting a better chance at a shot that gets results. The odds of getting a 3+ on either of 2 dice is much better than one alone...

Combi-flamer to give the squad some defense in case of a charge attack.

Storm bolter is good as well; 2 shots at 24 inches every time, all the time can't go wrong with that.

If the Sarge is a character, combi-plasma. They you have the precision shot to allocate an AP 2 shot to a special weapon in a squad, and two attempts to do it

EDIT: 2 Attempts at short range when it'll really matter

Stormbolters are great if you are getting them for free, or cheep. But they are nowhere near worth the 10 points tac sergeants pay for them. For 3 points, like they cost for HQs, they are fine for adding a little extra shooting. Whether it's worth giving up the extra attack for not having a pistol is another debate. For 10 points on a tac squad, it's not worth it. That's the same price as a combiweapon. Which adds a lot more versatility to the squad.

An extra bolter shot or two at extreme range is unlikely to make an impact on the game. That one flamer/melta/plasma shot at the right time just might. And 10 points spent elsewhere on the list depends on what else is going on.

There aren't many "trap" choices in our codex that are clearly inferior. With the rapid fire changes of 6th, and the 10 point cost, I feel that the Tac squad stormbolter upgrade is one of them.

I always go with combi-melta/combi-flamer + claws for my wolf guard. For tactical sergeant, I go with combi-melta/combi-flamer + pistol. I rely on other units to swoop in and help alleviate the combat.

Plasma pistol is pretty nice when you factor in the rules for precise shot

I am not really clear of what your army will look like.
Without combat tactics I will want some cc weapons to give them a boost. It sounds like you may bring Lysander.

In rhinos or drop pods I like sargs to have a combiweapon as it is very useful.

The only set up I would definitely not go for is chainsword and pistol, as bolter+pistol will be more useful.

I am finding kraks destroy tanks easily enough as to not want meltabombs. Though if I have search lights already and 5 pts left over I take 'em.

I am not really clear of what your army will look like.
Without combat tactics I will want some cc weapons to give them a boost. It sounds like you may bring Lysander.

I'm still buying the figures/models for it, so it's not set in stone yet. But the general concept will be four to six tactical squads broken into combat squads as the core. Each squad will have some heavy weapon and a mix of meltaguns and plasma guns. I will probably buy razorbacks of some flavor as a fire support vehicle that no ne will actually ride in....much akin to how BMDs were used in Soviet airborne units. To this I'll add a predator or two, a thunderfire cannon, perhaps a dreadnaught or two, and an assault unit of some sort to intercept any enemy unit that gets too close. You know. Your typical gunline type army.

I certainly will NOT be using Lysander as I don't do special characters. He doesn't fit this build anyway. The "Imperial Fists" thing is a reference to the paintjob rather than any sort of game mechanic.

In sort of build, buying the squad leader a close ocmbat weapon of some sort does not make sense to me. If I'm fighitng with my tactical squads, then I am doing it wrong,

TR

Combi-weapon or bolter is how I roll. Close combat isn't the tactical squad's forte, and I would only load up on tactical squads after making sure I have the melee/ranged punch that tacticals don't provide.

Given that you've stated you are building an Imperial Fist army, I think its important to consider the difference in how an army plays with Combat Tactics and without it. IIRC Lysander gives stubborn instead of Combat Tactics, so you need to consider if you are doing this before you outfit your Tactical marine sgts.

Combat tactics allows you to take advanced positions with the marines in order to maximize the number of turns you are able to rapid fire at the enemy. Tactical squads with this ability benefit from as many rapid fire guns as possible. Plasma guns are nice here, but flamers also provide a good benefit for a front line unit to ward off assaults and dig out units from over.

I give Tactical squad sgts in an army with combat tactics nothing but a bolter. This keeps the unit inexpensive while giving clear direction that the unit wants to be up close but not in CC - incentivizing the use of Combat tactics.

However, if your Tactical squads have Stubborn, this sort of play is not possible. With stubborn, your units on the front lines will get stuck in combat, and be unable to get out. Therefore they should be equipped to handled this inevitability. Stubborn Tactical squads need a way to put on some hurt in CC, so either CCW+BP here, or if you like a PF or PW. The choice of powerfist or which power weapon is tricky. Likely power weapons will be best if you are running Lysander, to try and challenge any MEQ PF model before the terminators arrive.

With the Vanilla book, there is no definite answer to any wargear selection. It depends on your list. The book is so versatile that you change tactics depending on your opponent and wargear changes depending on what's needed in your list.

Given that you've stated you are building an Imperial Fist army, I think its important to consider the difference in how an army plays with Combat Tactics and without it. IIRC Lysander gives stubborn instead of Combat Tactics, so you need to consider if you are doing this before you outfit your Tactical marine sgts.

*sigh*
I guess you missed it.
Two posts up from yours. Second paragraph.

Why is it that when you mention a specific chapter that people just assume that you will be running the related special character?

TR

Derp sorry missed that. I'd put a vote in for plain old bolter then.

Trench-Raider wrote:

Given that you've stated you are building an Imperial Fist army, I think its important to consider the difference in how an army plays with Combat Tactics and without it. IIRC Lysander gives stubborn instead of Combat Tactics, so you need to consider if you are doing this before you outfit your Tactical marine sgts.

*sigh*
I guess you missed it.
Two posts up from yours. Second paragraph.

Why is it that when you mention a specific chapter that people just assume that you will be running the related special character?

TR

I'd guess that's because most people here are gamers, so when they see something mentioned that might be related to how a game plays out they offer advice based on that information, purely from a gamers stand point. It could be said that you'd have saved yourself some trouble by not mentioning your chosen paint scheme given that it has no bearing on how to equip your Sgt's and is purely cosmetic, it might have given some people the impression that you were curious about wider list building hints and tips

Invest in some magnets (ebay) and make a few options (bolter - CCW/BP - Combi/Fist). Takes some time, but well worth it for flexibility.

Chapters do make a difference, even without special characters.

I'll never tell a imperial/crimson fist player to shave points by taking power fists out of his army, even if I think they are not needed.

Sometimes, gameplay can flex a little to let the fluff in.