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The player is one of the best I know, and he simply rapes with this list. How can space marines beat him?

1500
Prime - ag, 2 x boneswords, deathspitter

zoanthrope
zoanthrope

9 warriors - ag, rending claws, deathspitters
10 genestealers - rending claws - broodlord
10 genestealers - rending claws - broodlord

5 raveners - rending claws, death spitters

Trygon - regeneration

It is a tough nut to crack, and I need help doing it with space marines. Prefer minimal allies, but I have deathwing and guard in needed...

Help a brother out - he has lost one game in 6th - c'mon dakka, lets make it two!

Here is my thought on a list:

Libby - avenger, null zone
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
3 x attack bike
land speeder - typhoon
land speeder - typhoon
dev squad - 4 missles, las/plas razorback
thunderfire
vindicator - dozer blade, hkm

That feels a little better.

He's cheating. Here's the list you provided with points.

Prime - ag, 2 x boneswords, deathspitter - 105

zoanthrope - 60
zoanthrope - 60

9 warriors - ag, rending claws, deathspitters - 405
12 genestealers - rending claws - broodlord - 250
12 genestealers - rending claws - broodlord - 250
12 genestealers - rending claws - broodlord -250

5 raveners - rending claws, death spitters -225

Trygon - regeneration - 225

Total: 1875


What makes it worse is he's cheating with an extremely poor list, this is one of the worst Tyranid lists I've ever seen, it would of been terrifying in fifth, but in sixth? Hell no.

Edit: I forgot to answer your question. Missiles. Missiles are the end of this list. Krak will insta-kill the raveners, warriors and zoanthropes, and Frag will destroy the genestealers, just fit as many missiles into your list as you can. He's stupidly slow, you'll have all the time in the world.

well, lets see. Generally speaking he is relying incredibly heavily on psykers and close combat. Psykers can be defended against, and close combat got nerfed pretty bad.

The most surefire way to pull the rug out from under him will be to ally with Space Wolves or Eldar. No psyker heavy list enjoys it when their pskers perils almost as much as they successfully cast powers. The downside to using Eldar allies is that since you aren't battle brothers YOU can't cast Space Marine Psykic powers. But the Farseer is a fine psyker on its own.

Space Wolves similiarly can shut down any of his powers on a 4+, making them the second best psykic defense army in the game after Eldar.

While I don't play Space Marines, I play AGAINST space marines a whole lot. So I know some things you can do to help against these enemies.
Onto his actual list. Aside from the Zoanthropes, and spamming telekenises roles hoping for the glancing psykik power, he really doesn't have an answer to vehicles, well except in assault.

Flamers in Rhinos are a great option for dealing with him, since you can force him to assault your rhinos, get out when they wreck your rhino and flame+ rapid fire them. Take as many missiles as you can. They can ID zoanthropes, and warriors, and put consistant wounds on the Trygon. Really focus on long range shooting, Thunderfire Cannon will absolutely slaughter his Genestealers. Land Speeder Typhoons, will be a nightmare for him. They can play keep away from his zoanthropes, and blast away at units vulnerable to s8. Sternguard.... they are masters of shooting with their special ammo.

Flamers special weapon, missile launchers heavy weapon. Keep a focus on fast moving heavy shooters, and don't get marines out of their transports until you are confident they can finish the job with flamers + rapid fire. If you really want to tear him apart, take Vulcan to lead your SM, and ally with a Runes of Warding Farseer.

Well hopefull he's not cheating, but if so that explains a bit.

Thats a weak list though... wow.

Ok. Put flamers on your marines, and missiles on Devestators.Then, Thunderhammer Termies.

First, unless he swaps them out for powers, his Zoeys are his only ranged antitank. Kill it with missiles! Intant death, boom done. Or, if he starts his trygon on the table, kill that. Single zoeys are easy to bolter top death, its like killing two marines.

Stealers are easily killed by moving up a rhino and disembarking 10 tac marines with a flamer right in front. Maybe a combi flamer if youre mean. Flame, rapid fire. That'll kill the grand majority, and overwatch will mean very few survivors, which you can then kill easy.

Thunder Hammers will kill Warriors/raveners, every time. No question, he cant kill 5 thunderhammer termies with those guys. The remainder will beat him to death.

Ok list time!

Captain: storm shield and fist: (140)

2x 10 tac marines in a rhino, missile flamer, meltabombs: 210 (420)

5 Thunder hammer/SS termies in a landraider redeemer (430)

3x 5 devestators with 4 missiles 150 (450)

Land speeder, two heavy flamers (60)

Right, tactics for this. Sit, and shoot. Hit zoanthropes first, then the Trygon (if it deepstrikes) then Raveners, then warriors, then Genestealers. If he gets close, roll up the raider and rhinos for extra FU from the flamers, then rapid fire bolters. A Thunder Hammer assault finishes him off. This should massacre him. If he goes reserves, pick a point and castle. He cant assault, if he comes in close kill him, if he doesnt shoot him for a few turns.

i overstated one genestealer squad - there are only two

Inigo Montoya wrote:i overstated one genestealer squad - there are only two

Still 1625 which is 125 over the points you said.

And if you're having problems with this list in 6th I'd like to see yours - this one is ... Subpar.

rigeld2 wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:i overstated one genestealer squad - there are only two

Still 1625 which is 125 over the points you said.

And if you're having problems with this list in 6th I'd like to see yours - this one is ... Subpar.

^ what he said.

Well, it isn't my list so I am obviously off a bit somewhere. He doesn't cheat. He is a solid player. The posted list, however,is the gist of it.

My balanced list with no allies is:
Libby
dread w/ 2 x tlac
10 scouts ml, snipers, telion
10 tacs, melta, multi melta, rhino
10 tacs, melta, multi melta, rhino
2 attack bikes w/ multi meltas
storm talon with typhoons
vindicator with dozer blade and hkm
thunderfire
aegis with quad

Off the top of my head

I could see how you'd have trouble. Here's the things that work,

Storm Talon
Vindicator
Thunderfire
Librarian

Here's the things that don't,

Aegis
Attack Bikes

Here's the things that work, but you're probably spending too much on,

Scouts
Tacs


Use this as your basis for putting a new army list together. We could suggest things, but we don't know what models you have, so it's kind of mood.


On a side note:

When you play a full game against someone, you learn their whole army. You can't help it, it's how the game works. I find it more likely that this guy is cheating, the most likely cause is inventing upgrades as the game proceeds.

That is my delimma - 6th requires more scoring units than 5th did, and in my limited 6th experience, msu dies pretty quickly.

I have pretty much every model out there - 3 of most tanks, lots of everything... ...I have been playing a long time recreationally, not so long competitively. I will post a prospective list shortly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Libby
5 tac squad - rhino
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher - rhino
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher - rhino
storm talon - typhoons
land speeder - hf, typhoon
land speeder - hf, typhoon
dev squad - 4 missles
thunderfire
vindicator - dozer blade, hkm

Oh wow, man that is going to clean up, seriously clean up.

The new list is pretty mean against lightly armored bugs.

A note about the aegis: It's totally awesome. With an Aegis my IG are tougher to shoot off an objective than space marines. That being said space marines should never take one. They don't need a 4+ cover that bad when they have a 3+ armor, and once the opposition gets close enough to the wall they can also get cover from it. Codex marines just don't need fortifications, points are better spent on Chibitalons.

Yea, in my all comers I use telion to precision strike with the quad gun and the scouts get a 2+ cover save behind the wall. Not shabby for sitting on a home objective, but impractical against the bugs.

I dunno, not sure I agree about the aegis, it's served me well, I stick scouts behind it as well, and it's great cover for the thunderfire cannon and vindicator. Your list is very similar to mine and it's done well so far against all-comers, though I think ur just overspending by getting telion, those 5 extra scouts, and some of your vindicator upgrades/quad gun. Either way I cant imagine how such a nid list would give you that much trouble, it's very prone to ID and has no real solution to your flyer. What I have:

Libby
5 Sternguard with rhino (2 with combi melta and 3 with combi flamer, have fun charging that one genestealers!)
Dakka Dread

10 tac with PG and LC - rhino
10 tac with MG and ML - rhino
5 scout with ML

Storm talon with skyhammer
Attack bike with MM
attack bike with HB

Vindi
TFC

Aegis with icarus




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Err, the scouts do have camo cloaks and the vindi does have a stormbolter, and all the scouts have sniper rifles.

Here is the final build at 1500
Libby - avenger, null zone
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
storm talon - typhoons
land speeder - hf, typhoon
land speeder - hf, typhoon
dev squad - 4 missles
thunderfire
vindicator - dozer blade, hkm

I will let you guys know how it fared.

I hope things are going well for you, but there is an even better option via ally:

SW as main

Rune Priest
GH
GH
Speeder
Speeder
Long Fang with 5 missles
Vindicator

SM as ally

Libby
Cheap scout
TFC
Stormtalon

You get better troops. better psychic defense, better missle spam. All for the same amount of points.

I evidently can't read.

1500
Prime - ag, 2 x boneswords, deathspitter

zoanthrope
zoanthrope

9 warriors - ag, rending claws, deathspitters
12 genestealers - rending claws - broodlord
12 genestealers - rending claws - broodlord
12 genestealers - rending claws - broodlord

5 raveners - rending claws, death spitters

Trygon - regeneration

Should be possible.
First, I'd take 10 Assault Termies with hammers led by a Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield. They are able to deal with Raveners, Warriors, and the Trygon.

Then I'd take 2 or 3 full Tactical squads in Rhinos with heavy bolter, combi-flamer, and flamer. Hold them back to deal with infiltrating or outflanking Genestealers.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Here is the final build at 1500
Libby - avenger, null zone
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
storm talon - typhoons
land speeder - hf, typhoon
land speeder - hf, typhoon
dev squad - 4 missles
thunderfire
vindicator - dozer blade, hkm

I will let you guys know how it fared.

No offense, but this list is going to get shredded with his list.

The Libby Hood is not that good any more so he is not adding any anti-psyker to units farther than 6". He also can not ride in any of the rhino's so he is out in the open on his own.

The tactical squads have ML and they would be better off with HB. I know people are saying that "But it ID's warriors and raveners!" Chances are they might get one shot off each before they get killed. His squads are decent sized so that shouldn't be an issue and the Prime will be in front of the warriors to take the krak missile hits and LoS! the bolter hits. The HB gets you 3 shots on overwatch against the stealers so its better.

The HF on the speeders is ok, but they can not overwatch so they are a bit meh. At least you don't have them squadroned because that would be bad. They are going to get shot down by the warriors pretty quick 30 S5 BS4 shots will definitely knock one out of the sky a turn.

Thunderfire and Vindicator are nasty, not going to lie. I think you'll see one brood of stealers make b-line to the vindicator and the raveners charge towards the thunderfire. Both shuld be dead turn 2.

The talon will be dead the turn after it shows up. The Blords will roll on TK and they should have 1-2 OMs. Combine that with the shooting from the warriors and they should make short work of that.

Just my 2 cents on how I would beat your list with his list.

EDIT* Forgot hoods were basic equipment for SM. They still suck though.

Gloomfang wrote:
No offense, but this list is going to get shredded with his list.

The Libby Hood is not that good any more so he is not adding any anti-psyker to units farther than 6". He also can not ride in any of the rhino's so he is out in the open on his own.

Combat squad one of the tacticals and put him in the rhino with flamer, sgt, and 3 marines. Put the missle and 4 marines in the back out of the way as a speed bump to protect the thunderfire or vindicator..

Gloomfang wrote:
The tactical squads have ML and they would be better off with HB. I know people are saying that "But it ID's warriors and raveners!" Chances are they might get one shot off each before they get killed. His squads are decent sized so that shouldn't be an issue and the Prime will be in front of the warriors to take the krak missile hits and LoS! the bolter hits. The HB gets you 3 shots on overwatch against the stealers so its better.

How is he killing 3 tac squads in a turn? In two? Just curious, because I don't understand how he is going to open up the rhinos and kill 30 marines by turn two. As far as ID goes, all I have to do is block line of sight to the prime from the missles and that issue is resolved.

Gloomfang wrote:
The HF on the speeders is ok, but they can not overwatch so they are a bit meh. At least you don't have them squadroned because that would be bad. They are going to get shot down by the warriors pretty quick 30 S5 BS4 shots will definitely knock one out of the sky a turn.

If hisonly real shooting is on speeders, that is a bad thing? Speeders range is 60" with missles and the warriors range is 24". He MUST stay 30" from me until the vindicator is dead. I suppose I could swap the flamer for heavy bolters there.

Gloomfang wrote:
Thunderfire and Vindicator are nasty, not going to lie. I think you'll see one brood of stealers make b-line to the vindicator and the raveners charge towards the thunderfire. Both shuld be dead turn 2.

Again, how is he going to get 2nd turn assaults off on me? I am less than worried about genestealers in my backfield. 1 tac squad will double flamer, shoot and assault and clear the squad in a turn. The raveners are priority 1 so they will catch the dev missles and whatever else it takes to neutralize them early.

Gloomfang wrote:
The talon will be dead the turn after it shows up. The Blords will roll on TK and they should have 1-2 OMs. Combine that with the shooting from the warriors and they should make short work of that.

I probably should look at a better place to put those 155 points. Maybe a second vindicator...

So how would you beat those nids?

Even with the Prime taking the missile hits - 3 wounds and he's dead. AP3 vs 3+ save, and you're still wounding on 2s.

5 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds - dead Prime.

@ inigo

If you really want to know and have it mean anything valuable can you put in your list what you are reserving, what is geeing combat squaded and where the libby is going? With the list the way you are showing it i assumed no combat squads and everything in the rhinos.


@rigeld

What makes you think you are going to get 5 shots? If they guy is a halfway decent Nid player your not going to get more than 3 into the unit before they are in CC.
Also when you get down to 1W you start LOS! To keep his bonuses.

Gloomfang wrote:@rigeld

What makes you think you are going to get 5 shots? If they guy is a halfway decent Nid player your not going to get more than 3 into the unit before they are in CC.
Also when you get down to 1W you start LOS! To keep his bonuses.

He has 10 ML in the list. I don't think you're going to get into CC 1/3 of the way through his first shooting phase.
Heck, the Devs have a decent chance of killing the Prime in one turn by themselves.
And feeding the missiles a 45 point model every wound is easily worth it. I'd rather you LoS! them off to normal warriors.

All three tactical squads combat squad. 2 Stay embarked in the rhinos, 1 missle and 4 guys deploy in the rear, and the libby sits with the sgt and flamer.. Nothing reserves except the talon, and I am thinking of dropping it for something ( all 3 heavies are full, maybe 3 attack bikes w/ hb...)

Deploy as far back as possible while keeping line of site with the appropriate units (not hard at our flgs...) and move backwards and shoot.
Missles on:
Turn 1 - raveners and zoanthropes
Turn 2 - warriors and trygon
Turn 3 - warriors and trygon

Vindicator on:
Warriors, Raveners, genestealers

Thunderfire, flamers, stormbolters and bolters on genestealers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Libby - avenger, null zone
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
10 tac squad - flamer, missle launcher, sgt w/ combi flamer - rhino w 2 x storm bolter
3 x attack bike
land speeder - typhoon
land speeder - typhoon
dev squad - 4 missles, las/plas razorback
thunderfire
vindicator - dozer blade, hkm

That feels a little better.

Considering Missile Launchers on Devastators cost 31pts, Please LoS! those tasty missile wounds onto your 45pt Warriors!

Drop the HF on the speeders. The Heavy Bolter will put wounds on pretty much everything in this list, and forcing saves on Warriors and Zoanthropes isn't something to sneeze at, either.

It costs 16pts for a ML in a Tactical Squad (other than the baggage of having to have a full 10man to do it).

I think the above list is much more realistic. I will append the first entry as well. Thoughts form anyone else?

OK here is my first draft and notes:

HQ:
Chaplin Cassius: 125pts (attach to Sternguard as FNP with Invun save point man. And it's fluffy.)

Elites:
10 Legion of the Damned:Flamer/HF. Sargent with PF: 380pts (This is the Anvil. This unit ignores rends, Smash and bone swords as they have a 3+ Invuln. This unit should go into the warrior deathstar.)

10 Sternguard: Combi-flamer for all and a Drop pod: 335pt ( a big 11 man block with the chaplain. This unit will drop into place where it can do the most damage with its Hellfire rounds on rapid fire. If charged fire off as many flamers as needed.10 D3 S4 hits is a lot. This unit is the hammer)

Troops:
5 Scouts: HB with Hellfire rounds. Melta-bomb and sniper rifle for Sargent: 100pts (Basic scoring unit. Put it on an objective and have it sit there. The hellfire rounds are good for hitting the Trigon as they wound on 2+. Only one sniper rifle as each unit only has to get hit with one pinning shot to take a pinning test.)

5 Scouts: HB with Hellfire rounds. Sgt Telion: 135pt. (Another scoring unit. I just like Telion and I had the points. Also makes the HB shots really accurate. Park these guys on an objective. Don't forget that Telion's gun does pinning.)

10 Man Tactical Squad: Flamer/HB. Sgt gets a combi-flamer. TL AssCann Razorback transport. 255pts. (Combat squad the Sgt and flamer in one squad in the Razorback. Leave the other 5 with the HB and place them on the table in a position to support one of scout squads. The squad in the razorback should go to take the farthest away objective as fast as possible and aim for Linebreaker.)

10 Man Tactical Squad: Flamer/HB. Nothing on the sgt. :170pts (Basic Scoring. Combat squad and have them move to midfield to support the scouts and reenforce their position.


You will notice no psyker. No point really. Only psykers are Broodlords and they will probably only do Biomancy buffs and the hood will not help. And with a psyker in almost every unit they would probably just deny any powers you tried to do.

Your thoughts on the list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Gloomfang wrote:@rigeld

What makes you think you are going to get 5 shots? If they guy is a halfway decent Nid player your not going to get more than 3 into the unit before they are in CC.
Also when you get down to 1W you start LOS! To keep his bonuses.

He has 10 ML in the list. I don't think you're going to get into CC 1/3 of the way through his first shooting phase.
Heck, the Devs have a decent chance of killing the Prime in one turn by themselves.
And feeding the missiles a 45 point model every wound is easily worth it. I'd rather you LoS! them off to normal warriors.

Your assuming that you have line of sight with every missle. Real boards have cover. I am supprised he does not have a screening unit for cover saves for his warriors though. Also keep in mind the raveners have a 1w" move and ignore cover so unless he blows his charge roll chances are they will just get overwatch on there way in so maybe one dead ravener.

Legion of the damned are ridiculously overpriced and are just going to die as easily as normal marines to his shooting he never has to charge them. also they must enter play with the deep strike special rules so you don't even get to shoot with them much b4 they are wiped.

the Sternguard are okay but the point of a chappy is to charge in and give their cc buff to your squad this is wasted with Sternguard who you don't want to charge into anything. Cassius has no place in this list. Additionally since the sternguard are the only unit in the army with a DP they have to come in on the first turn, alone, they will be killed far to fast. Its better to give them all meltas combat squad and wipe out his warriors and raveners from the back so the prime cant tank the str 8 hits. This may at least refund their points.

The scouts can all get snipers for free so why not just get snipers for them all? Then they might actually do something.

with only one razorback and one DP in your list you are very stationary and you have very little long range fire power this is a very major flaw.

Drop Cassius use his points to get yourself a decent captain with a storm shield and thunder hammer I agree that the libby isn't doing much.

Drop the Legion of the Damned I love their fluff but their is no way you can spend 380 points on what is essentially a squad of marines.
Use the points from this to make the rest of your army more mobile and more shooty.

all in all the OP's new list is far superior to this.


edit
the sternguard should also only be 310 points
125 + 100 for 5 more marines + 50 for 10 combi weapons + 35 for a DP
125+100+50+35=310 not 335

Gloomfang wrote:OK here is my first draft and notes:

Your thoughts on the list?

Edit: Ninja'd, for the most part.

To paraphrase the OP's namesake ... "This list, I do not think it means what you think it means."

- The Scouts: Hellfire rounds are actually really bad at putting wounds on a Trygon. It changes the profile from Heavy 3 to Heavy 1 Blast, and doesn't ignore the Trygon's save, so if you don't scatter off you're looking at one Wound tops that the Trygon will probably save. I'd go for a missile launcher, it has about a 42% chance of putting a Wound on the Trygon with no save, and works better against Also, for a backfield objective holder, there's really no reason not to give everyone a sniper rifle. They're free, and let the other Scouts threaten MCs at the very least.

- The LotD: It generally isn't worth the points. As other posters have pointed out, Assault Terminators will get the job done better, even without a Land Raider, as his major deathstar is walking. The Termies cost only a little more for a squad of 10 (400pts vs. 380). They hold up twice as well to deathspitters, twice as well to non-Rending hits, and will mercilessly murder the deathstar (or anything else) in CC, rather than do nothing and lose 3-4 models a turn until they die.

- The Sternguard: Combi-flamers aren't really worth the points, at least not for all 10 Sternguard. 5 would be more than enough to make the Nid player think twice about assaulting.

- Chaplain Cassius: Meh. His T6 is wasted in a squad. If you're going to run him as point man for a Sternguard unit, you might as well take Lysander. For 75 more points, he gets you more than twice the survivability, a buff that quite frankly makes Sternguard amazing (re-roll bolter shots) and a lot more punch in assault. This change would make the combi-flamers overkill, so there's most of your points difference right there.

- AssCan Razorback. If this is the only vehicle in your list, you know what the Zoanthropes are going to be aiming for. With a 24" range, you'll get one, maybe two shots off.

Overall, this list lacks any viable long-range firepower, which is the SM's best weapon against Nids. It has too much mid-range shooting and padding, and would perform much worse than any of the other lists posted so far.

@humbaba. The LotD are really only good against CC units that ignore armor saves. As a tyrnid plaer i can tell you that is almost everything in our army. I would rather fight 10 TH/SS termis than 10 LotD. I would not take them in an all comers list, but against Nids i would.

Sternguard price i just pulled off armybuilder when i threw this list together. Might have typoed.

The reason i took the chaplin was that he makes a good point man. With a good save and FNP he can suck up a lot of attacks and protect his squad. I was going to go with Lysander, but i just couldn't find the points.

As for the sniper rifles, they only get you one shot on overwatch. Bolters get you 2. These units are going to get charged before they get to many rounds of shoting.

As for the stationary aspect you forgot that LotD have to deepstrike. And yes the list is lacking in mobility the enemy is based on coming to you, so mobility is not key.



In all the OPs list is much better as an all comers list. This list is tailored for the Nid list listed up in the original post. And in the hands of a compitant Nid general the OPs list has some real issues and weaknesses against a stealershock/warstar list.