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I heard of an over the top ally move that includes Epidemus and 20 Grots. Epidemus does Aura of Decay and kills of the Grots. That would top out the max of 20 kills for the Daemon side and evey follower of Nurgle gets the bonuses from Epidemus.

Question is, can he kill his own allies? I mean they would not be Battle Brother of course. Would this be a legal move tho? Cheesy?


What are your thoughts?

There's a couple threads on this. Last I heard, yes.

Dont rely on a particular interpretation to be ruled for your army to work as it is quite contentus due to the debate on weather you target the enemy allies (as its implied in the wording of Aura of Decay as it uses the word targets)

The answer the OP's question: Yes, the grots will be killd if they are within Aura of decay's range.

The debate is wether or not you can use Aura of decay if no ennemy units are within the range of the Aura.

SkizO wrote:The debate is wether or not you can use Aura of decay if no ennemy units are within the range of the Aura.

That's not a debate - since the Allies of Convenience rule states that the Grots are considered enemies for the purpose of this area effect, which isn't a psychic power or shooting attack. It's very definitely legal under RAW at present.

It's also very definitely cheesy and likely to be FAQ'ed out.

Super Ready wrote:

SkizO wrote:The debate is wether or not you can use Aura of decay if no ennemy units are within the range of the Aura.

That's not a debate - since the Allies of Convenience rule states that the Grots are considered enemies for the purpose of this area effect, which isn't a psychic power or shooting attack. It's very definitely legal under RAW at present.

It's also very definitely cheesy and likely to be FAQ'ed out.

WOW, that is a quick way to make your daemon army extremely deadly really fast.

Super Ready wrote:

SkizO wrote:The debate is wether or not you can use Aura of decay if no ennemy units are within the range of the Aura.

That's not a debate - since the Allies of Convenience rule states that the Grots are considered enemies for the purpose of this area effect, which isn't a psychic power or shooting attack. It's very definitely legal under RAW at present.

It's also very definitely cheesy and likely to be FAQ'ed out.

Why is it cheesy? I think it's the perfect fluff to have Epidemius sacrifice a horde of grots to Papa Nurgle. What else are grots good for in the 1000 eyes of the maggot lord?

I think the cheese comes from the fact that there is no fluff to justify 20 Grots following a Daemon on a battlefield - in fact as far as fluff is conserned for the grots, staying as far away from this guys as possible would be just gravy.

I wouldn't really consider it over the top because it only really benefits a mono-nurgle army. Not a very competitive army in the first place. This might make them almost mediocre.

It's sickening in objective games, because it makes it nigh on impossible to take out all of those Troop Plaguebearers - not only do they become more survivable, they are deadlier in combat so it's not even a simple task to charge in and contest.

It also makes the victory points for first blood and assassinating the warlord MUCH tougher to get, so you're even more on the back foot.

If you read the original post, the player who posted the list wanted to try it for fun against some friends. Then the internet turned it into OMG CHEESEEEE!!! and such a WACC player.

But yes, it is legal to do so!

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:I think the cheese comes from the fact that there is no fluff to justify 20 Grots following a Daemon on a battlefield - in fact as far as fluff is conserned for the grots, staying as far away from this guys as possible would be just gravy.

I sort of figured that the cowardly grots had been captured alive and enslaved by some servants of chaos in order to be sacrificed at a later date. I think it's perfectly in character. But if it still bothers you, why not try this list by replacing the grots with an IG penal company. You could even model them as chaos cultists willing to die for the hope of Nurgle's blessing. They won't die as easily as the grots though.

You should read the other threads.

It is definitely not legal. As it is defined as a shooting attack, you still have to be in range of an enemy that can be shot. Allies of convenience specifically cannot be shot at. (pg 112). Therefore, the shooting unit will not fire. (pg 12).

Super Ready wrote:

It also makes the victory points for first blood... MUCH tougher to get,

What's so hard about killing the remaining 3-4 Grots?

Killjoy00 wrote:You should read the other threads.

It is definitely not legal. As it is defined as a shooting attack, you still have to be in range of an enemy that can be shot. Allies of convenience specifically cannot be shot at. (pg 112). Therefore, the shooting unit will not fire. (pg 12).

You should read Codex: Chaos Daemons. It's NOT defined as a shooting attack.

Even if it was a shooting attack, it wouldn't target anyone specifically.

If people say that you can't hit grots with AOE spells because it would "target" them, then I will start using Ahriman's 4+ DtW against Null Zone.

Same idea.

Yes, you can do what you are asking OP.

Brometheus wrote:Even if it was a shooting attack, it wouldn't target anyone specifically.

Well, BigTime TOs have already decided Vibro Cannons can't hit fliers even though they target nothing, aren't shots, and aren't shots directed at the fliers. Sense doesn't apply to tournament 40k.

"Aura of decay is a ranged weapon" codex pg. 75.

Ranged weapons require targets.

I don't want to get into this fight again. Obviously some people think it works. There are very solid rules saying it doesn't.

It's cheap if you are playing with friends and is has a chance to be ruled illegal if you try it at a tourney. Pass.

The ability doesn't require a target, it just hits all enemy models within 6.

Also in the chaos daemon codex it says "automatically suffer" the hits. The automatic part does suggest that it effects anyone in 6" without the stuff leading up to that hence the "automatic"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As well as this the FAQ also implies that aura of decay skips the targeting stage by the bit which says:

Q: Does Aura Of Decay limit what the rest of the unit can shoot and assault that turn
A: No

However if it was targeting the enemy unit then the unit would only be able to assault that enemy.

There have been multiple threads about this that are much longer. I would refer you to them.

Could you link the relevant threads please

Here is the original thread about the list. They start arguing about the legality of this move on page 3

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/463220.page#4573347

Well you know im going to chime in here on this subject natter.

From the BRBpg 112 under heading AoC it states. However, if a psychic power, scattering blast weapon or oher ability that affects an area hits some of these AoC they will be affected along with any friendly or enamy units.

Since aura of decay is not a shooting attack and they where not targeted, they can be hit and die from it.

My question is though since they are not the Enemy your both commonly fighting that day do you get the bonus's for thier deaths. They are infact your ally. Just they have special rules on how they will interact with your army. I do not think the makers of the game wanted allies slaughtered by the wrong side to game the system. If people spent more time playing and less time trying to game the system then there would be alot more fun happening. IMHO

Lungpickle wrote:

Since aura of decay is not a shooting attack

Wrong. "Aura of decay is a ranged weapon" codex pg. 75.

Which doesn't matter, it effects all enemy models. Allies of convenience are considered enemy models.

It's still a cheap WAAC trick, but it's legal.

I don't think it's a cheap WAAC trick. I think it's a very clever idea that matches the fluff wonderfully and it is not guaranteed to win you the game. Nurgle lists were never really competitive, but here is a cute trick that can make it tougher. Let's not try to rule it out just because we don't like it.

Back in 3rd edition (maybe even in the current CSM codex - I don't know) a khorne berserker had a chance to attack models in it's own squad. That was explicitly RAW and RAI. So even though I don't think that aura of decay was specifically intended to attack allies, I think you'll be hard pressed to get GW to FAQ it out just because it can now. Chaos is evil. They're willing to kill their own dudes to win.

Grugknuckle wrote:I don't think it's a cheap WAAC trick. I think it's a very clever idea that matches the fluff wonderfully and it is not guaranteed to win you the game. Nurgle lists were never really competitive, but here is a cute trick that can make it tougher. Let's not try to rule it out just because we don't like it.

Back in 3rd edition (maybe even in the current CSM codex - I don't know) a khorne berserker had a chance to attack models in it's own squad. That was explicitly RAW and RAI. So even though I don't think that aura of decay was specifically intended to attack allies, I think you'll be hard pressed to get GW to FAQ it out just because it can now. Chaos is evil. They're willing to kill their own dudes to win.

That khorne rule is around kind of, but only applies to kharn the betrayer. it will probly make the transition again into the new book.