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My IG army has never had much when it comes to Elites. The same can't be said for 6ed. Stormtroopers and Ratlings both received a quality boost in my opinion.

The problem I have with Ratlings is their leadership! Only 6. My question concerns squad sizes and suffering 25% for a forced leadership. Taking 5 seems to be a must. Even then, they seem vulnerable.

Do you guys feel that Ratlings are worth the risk? They are going to fail their Leadership 50% of the time. This is a scary thought. Points wise, they're cheap. Toughness of 2 hurts but their cover saves make up for it. Just wanted to get some thoughts on how you field these guys and if you think the Ld issue is a deal breaker. I haven't read much about it on Dakkka so any advice would be appreciated.

I don't like the ratling models so I use the cadian models instead. Even with that, I still don't really like them which is a shame because they're a decent point filler. I take them if I'm making a quick list and can't think of anything to fill that last handful of points with.

They'll infiltrate and harass the enemy. People seem to think the new sniper rules make them a top tier unit but even with a squad of 10, you're only going to get two 6 rolls on average. It makes them a bit better but I wouldn't rely on it. I'd rather hit the unit with a battle cannon and see who is left standing. The idea of picking off the special and heavy weapons does appeal to me though. It just doesn't work very well in practice. I have to get a 6 to hit to pick the model, a 4 to wound in which case they get an armor save, or a 6 to wound gives them an instant wound.

I'll keep my cadian ratlings as before I think. Pile on wounds onto monstrous creatures at a 4/4.

There are a couple of ways to handle the leadership. One is to bring a regimental standard and have it parked nearby. Likely you're already bringing one of these.

Another is to attach a IC with decent leaderhip, or in the case of a lord commissar, simply have him nearby.

Plus, failing morale checks is a lot less awful now. If they flee, it's more likely that they'll just rally now and continue on.

It mostly a shame to take them when you can bring marine allies with scoring sniper scouts.
Or of course the eldar snipers which can really snipe and happen to be scoring.

Chimera with sniper rifles platoon command squad would be better, this is a little sad :(

Just take 3. 30 points, and I can take that perfect infiltration spot away from you.
Yeah, you're likely to give up first blood, but you're playing IG, that's likely anyway.
If you aren't running other elites, 3 unit of 3 for 90 points is well worth it. They are totally a pain in the ass to deal with, as just about anything you throw at them is wastefull over-kill.

And so what if they flee; just take snap shots as you fall back, you're hoping for 6's anyway.

-Matt

MFletch wrote:It mostly a shame to take them when you can bring marine allies with scoring sniper scouts.
Or of course the eldar snipers which can really snipe and happen to be scoring.

Chimera with sniper rifles platoon command squad would be better, this is a little sad :(

Hmmmmm, compare:
Ratlings, BS 4, Stealth, poor LD which can be fixed by having a Lord Commissar (that I already take to give stealth to the blob) nearby, can benefit from Bring It Down or Fire On My Target orders (passing on a 10 due to nearby lord Commissar).
Marine Scouts, BS 3, cost more points, have to take them as allies, do not have stealth.

If I take snipers in the IG army, seems to me that Ratlings are a tad bit better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Just take 3. 30 points, and I can take that perfect infiltration spot away from you.
Yeah, you're likely to give up first blood, but you're playing IG, that's likely anyway.
If you aren't running other elites, 3 unit of 3 for 90 points is well worth it. They are totally a pain in the ass to deal with, as just about anything you throw at them is wastefull over-kill.

And so what if they flee; just take snap shots as you fall back, you're hoping for 6's anyway.

-Matt

Now this is a good idea, may have to break my one squad of 10 into three units. thanks!

I never play them in a group larger than 5. Even than their inclusion is mostly based off there being a open elite slot and not a lot of points to fill it.

That being said they can be useful. They're nice to have if your opponent has monsterous creatures. Back in 5th, I liked to infiltrate them behind enemy lines because they could be annoying to kill with shooting with a 3+ (2+ to ground). They've lost some of their cover in 6th though. Granted, I think their precision sniper shot ability more than makes up for it.

In short, not an auto include, but not a terrible thing to bring. An ally space marine or eldar sniper team will be better just for their ability to camp an objective.

don_mondo wrote:
Hmmmmm, compare:
Ratlings, BS 4, Stealth, poor LD which can be fixed by having a Lord Commissar (that I already take to give stealth to the blob) nearby, can benefit from Bring It Down or Fire On My Target orders (passing on a 10 due to nearby lord Commissar).
Marine Scouts, BS 3, cost more points, have to take them as allies, do not have stealth.

If I take snipers in the IG army, seems to me that Ratlings are a tad bit better.

Dear god what a skewed argument. First of all, if your ratlings are always within 12" of your blob, you're really not taking advantage of their infiltrate; and thus crippling them.

Second, if you're using both the CCS's abilities and the Lord Commissar's abilities as arguments for the Ratlings (upping the cost of a five man ratling squad by at least 130 points for both the CCS and LC) then a 5 man ratling squad is now 180 points.

A Marine scout squad of five, plus Telion, plus camo cloaks, costs 147 points, has both stealth AND camo cloaks for +2 to their cover save, a missile launcher that can be fired at BS6, or two rending, pinning, str4AP5 BS6 shots allocated wherever the shooter wants. Oh yeah, and they're scoring. With infiltrate. Not to mention LD9 with ATSKNF.

In no world is a squad of ratlings better than scouts; sorry.

TheCaptain wrote:

don_mondo wrote:
Hmmmmm, compare:
Ratlings, BS 4, Stealth, poor LD which can be fixed by having a Lord Commissar (that I already take to give stealth to the blob) nearby, can benefit from Bring It Down or Fire On My Target orders (passing on a 10 due to nearby lord Commissar).
Marine Scouts, BS 3, cost more points, have to take them as allies, do not have stealth.

If I take snipers in the IG army, seems to me that Ratlings are a tad bit better.

Dear god what a skewed argument. First of all, if your ratlings are always within 12" of your blob, you're really not taking advantage of their infiltrate; and thus crippling them.

Second, if you're using both the CCS's abilities and the Lord Commissar's abilities as arguments for the Ratlings (upping the cost of a five man ratling squad by at least 130 points for both the CCS and LC) then a 5 man ratling squad is now 180 points.

A Marine scout squad of five, plus Telion, plus camo cloaks, costs 147 points, has both stealth AND camo cloaks for +2 to their cover save, a missile launcher that can be fired at BS6, or two rending, pinning, str4AP5 BS6 shots allocated wherever the shooter wants. Oh yeah, and they're scoring. With infiltrate. Not to mention LD9 with ATSKNF.

In no world is a squad of ratlings better than scouts; sorry.

This

TheCaptain wrote:In no world is a squad of ratlings better than scouts; sorry.

They're cheaper, they have BS4, and they don't require you to ally to space marines (especially useful if you want to, say, ally to GK instead).

HawaiiMatt wrote:And so what if they flee; just take snap shots as you fall back, you're hoping for 6's anyway.

You can't get precise shots while snap firing.

TheCaptain wrote:

don_mondo wrote:
Hmmmmm, compare:
Ratlings, BS 4, Stealth, poor LD which can be fixed by having a Lord Commissar (that I already take to give stealth to the blob) nearby, can benefit from Bring It Down or Fire On My Target orders (passing on a 10 due to nearby lord Commissar).
Marine Scouts, BS 3, cost more points, have to take them as allies, do not have stealth.

If I take snipers in the IG army, seems to me that Ratlings are a tad bit better.

Dear god what a skewed argument. First of all, if your ratlings are always within 12" of your blob, you're really not taking advantage of their infiltrate; and thus crippling them.

Second, if you're using both the CCS's abilities and the Lord Commissar's abilities as arguments for the Ratlings (upping the cost of a five man ratling squad by at least 130 points for both the CCS and LC) then a 5 man ratling squad is now 180 points.

A Marine scout squad of five, plus Telion, plus camo cloaks, costs 147 points, has both stealth AND camo cloaks for +2 to their cover save, a missile launcher that can be fired at BS6, or two rending, pinning, str4AP5 BS6 shots allocated wherever the shooter wants. Oh yeah, and they're scoring. With infiltrate. Not to mention LD9 with ATSKNF.

In no world is a squad of ratlings better than scouts; sorry.

First, granted, it would limit their deployment. Solution if you think one is needed (I don't), albeit adding to the expense, take Creed. Course, with either unit if you stick them out unsupported on an objective, they're most likely dead to a turn 2 assault. So yeah, keeping them within 12" of the blob must be a bad choice...................... not. It's called building a fire base. The buff that Infiltrate gives even when deploying them in your own deployment zone is that you get to set them against the targets you want, after your opponent has deployed. That doesn't go away just because you stick them close to the blob.

Second, you mean making use of units that I'm already including in the list (meaning that with or without Ratlings, I am already including those two units, meaning that there is no 'additional' cost incurred)? Well yeah, that's kind of a duh! IMO. Oh yeah, with Infiltrate and LD 10 (due to Lord Commissar). but no ATSKNF, which is less of a loss than it used to be, given the new regrouping rules.

Tied to second, since you brought up 'additional' cost of the IG HQs. Let's not forget that to take the SM Scouts, i would also have to buy a Space Marine HQ, which does actually add to the cost.
Telion squad. Wow, only 147 points, plus the cost of the SM HQ. Hmmm, what is the cheapest possible SM HQ? Anyways, ten Ratlings are 100 points. With no need to spend yet more points on an additional HQ unit. So I could probably get 20 Ratlings (or more) for what you are proposing I spend on the one squad of SM Scouts (plus HQ). This is the biggest point right here. Cost. ten ratlings for half of what you propose for the Telion squad. 100 points to spend on the Aegis Defense Line, right there.

I'll give you the scoring bit, which oddly, doesn't concern me. I'm playing IG, if there's anything I do not lack, it's the ability to field cheap scoring units. Slightly better cover save, sure, I'll give you that one as well. Course, I tend to go after scout units like SM Scouts or Ratlings with weapons that do not allow cover, meaning numbers is slightly more important, but that's just me. Missile Launcher. Ummmm, so? Did I forget to mention that I'm playing IG, and what do IG have lots of? Oh yeah, heavy weapons................ Even at BS 6 it's not worth that many points.

So all in all, I think I'll stick to the Ratlings. Overall better performance, which can be buffed through orders. Cheaper cost. But hey, you like SM Scouts, go for it. IMO, the ratlings are a better choice. YMMV.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:They're cheaper, they have BS4, and they don't require you to ally to space marines (especially useful if you want to, say, ally to GK instead).

Sisters, actually. Celestine is a fun addition to IG.................

don_mondo wrote:Lord Commissar (that I already take to give stealth to the blob)

Camo cloaks don't give stealth any more, they simply increase the models cover save. So no more camo blobs.

Trickstick wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Lord Commissar (that I already take to give stealth to the blob)

Camo cloaks don't give stealth any more, they simply increase the models cover save. So no more camo blobs.

Hmmm, missed that, where's it say it?

don_mondo wrote:

Trickstick wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Lord Commissar (that I already take to give stealth to the blob)

Camo cloaks don't give stealth any more, they simply increase the models cover save. So no more camo blobs.

Hmmm, missed that, where's it say it?

It's an errata, 3rd page of the IG faq, just above the "FAQ" title:

"A model wearing a camo cloak adds +1 to its cover save."

Trickstick wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Trickstick wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Lord Commissar (that I already take to give stealth to the blob)

Camo cloaks don't give stealth any more, they simply increase the models cover save. So no more camo blobs.

Hmmm, missed that, where's it say it?

It's an errata, 3rd page of the IG faq, just above the "FAQ" title:

"A model wearing a camo cloak adds +1 to its cover save."

Thanks

Deceiver wrote:I don't like the ratling models so I use the cadian models instead. Even with that, I still don't really like them which is a shame because they're a decent point filler. I take them if I'm making a quick list and can't think of anything to fill that last handful of points with.

I honestly just take HK missiles over ratlings, not any better really, but I have like a 1 in 6 chance of getting an exploding or immobilize result per missile (against AV 11 transports) so... I mean if I ran foot sloggers I might take Ratlings instead, but even then, Ratlings are a pretty crappy unit if only because snipers have never been good (except maybe in second edition or something). But yeah, for a 10 point per model unit with a minimum of 3 guys ratlings are good. I mean if you have like 60 points left and want to add something besides extra armour or carapace armour to vehicles or units, ratlings are great, you can't get Marbo or a vet squad, and Ratlings are probably a better support unit than a random infantry squad.

don_mondo wrote: So all in all, I think I'll stick to the Ratlings. Overall better performance, which can be buffed through orders.

First, my assertion was that you suggested you needed both a LC and a CCS to make them viable; meaning you cannot take another CCS, or a Primaris. With scouts, you can take ANY HQ and they still perform.

Secondly, ratlings are cheaper and have higher BS; that's all. Lower toughness, lower leadership; non scoring, +1 to cover, and allocate less than 2 shots per round of shooting, and rend maybe 1 of those if you're lucky. Scouts score, have higher cover save, with telion can allocate 2 rending, pinning shots Guaranteed, plus any precision shots, and can be combat squadded. And have ATSKNF. And higher LD. It's cool you think ratlings are better, good for ratlings; they've got a fan, but ignoring facts is uncool.

-TheCaptain

And the fact is that taking your full unit of 10 cloaked scouts with Telion costs how many points? Right, 220 points.

You're comparing a 220 point squad to a 100 point squad.

False analogies are uncool.

Plus, taking scouts still requires you to ally with space marines. That's not the best thing for everybody, especially when there are other, better, ally options.

Honestly, Ratlings have gotten better, but not enough that they're worth taking. I've run a squad of them at every opportunity throughout 5th and into 6th, and they simply aren't that effective. The problem with sniper rifles is their lack of AP. When the maximum size for a squad is 10, you simply can't put out enough shots to overwhelm armor saves. You also can't rely on precision rending, because on average, you're looking at 2 of them per turn. Between LOS and cover, you simply don't have a chance to deal much damage.
Thus far for me, in 6th, they killed a Rhino, pulled a HP off of a Landspeeder, pulled a HP off of a Devilfish, killed a hand full of SM, a hand full of Kroot including the shaper, and a pathfinder squad. That is a squad of ten ratlings over the course of 5+ games: two unit kills, 5 total HPs, and around 5 infantry models killed.

At this point, I've moved to two squads of Stormies and Marbo, and I'm having some luck with that. It's a more versatile, they deal much more damage, they draw fire away from enemy units, and the can soak it up.

I'll repeat what I said in the thread about snipers in 6th (paraphrased)

"Why bother with ratlings when we have artillery that can snipe almost as well, with better strength and Ap? I'd rather just blow the entire unit up than go through all that trouble to kill the special weapon and leave the squad 'useless'."

We're IG, anything those snipers can do, we can do better with something else in our army. MC hunting is the only thing where they stand a chance, and even there, they'll rarely make it through the armor saves. I know if I have to pick between 15 inbred cowardly midgets with peashooters and a battle tank, I'm picking the tank every time.

Essentially, other armies like SM and Eldar rely on snipers because they don't have the weight of fire we do. Plus their snipers actually score. Ours don't, and they compete with slots you could use on marbo, stormtroopers, or heck, even ogryn. I love the idea behind them, but I'll never take them outside of friendly games.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, taking scouts still requires you to ally with space marines.

This. A MINIMUM Scout squad with telion and required HQ will run how many points? 150 for a minimum sized Scout squad with Telion, Missile Launcher, 3 x sniper rifles and camo cloaks and then another 100 just for the CHEAPEST bare-nekkid HQ. So 100 points for 10 Ratlings vs 250 for a minimum sized (5 models) Scout squad. It's called comparitive analysis. Sure, one for one the Scouts might be a little bit better. Point for Point (including the required HQ), they flat out lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'll repeat what I said in the thread about snipers in 6th (paraphrased)

"Why bother with ratlings when we have artillery that can snipe almost as well, with better strength and Ap? I'd rather just blow the entire unit up than go through all that trouble to kill the special weapon and leave the squad 'useless'."

We're IG, anything those snipers can do, we can do better with something else in our army. MC hunting is the only thing where they stand a chance, and even there, they'll rarely make it through the armor saves. I know if I have to pick between 15 inbred cowardly midgets with peashooters and a battle tank, I'm picking the tank every time.

Essentially, other armies like SM and Eldar rely on snipers because they don't have the weight of fire we do. Plus their snipers actually score. Ours don't, and they compete with slots you could use on marbo, stormtroopers, or heck, even ogryn. I love the idea behind them, but I'll never take them outside of friendly games.

There certainly are better units within the IG codex for scoring, anit-tank, even anti-infantry. Stormtroopers, good deep strike anti-armor suicide squad. Marbo, one hit wonder who dies right after he lands (altho i've been thinking about using him to man the bastion quad gun..........).
Anyways, I've been having fun with them.

Oh theres nothing wrong with taking them for fun. I love killing the big scary HQ unit with a bunch of hobbits. I also take them in friendly games just because they always do something funny.

I just never take them if I want to win

Telion and scouts is a lovely unit and I can recommend them to vanilla players. Yes, it costs more points but better units do.
Taking vanilla marine allies is not such a crazy idea for IG.

Ratlings just die too easily and then run away, unless you have some weird plans with HQs but even then they are not worth their points. They are not a brilliant unit.

To say that ratlings being better as they are cheaper is just a false economy.

No one is saying that Ratlings are better because they are cheaper. They are saying that it is disingenuous to declare that scouts are always and forever the better option, no matter the situation, just because they have more firepower. If you compare a 250 pt unit and a 100 pt unit, then of course you'll get more firepower in the 250 pt unit.

To be fair, though, it IS possible to make a 30 point investment in ratlings, while the least you can spend is nowhere near as cheap with non-codex options.

That said, I really don't begrudge the damage that ratlings can put out, per se. It's not the best, but it really isn't THAT bad. I think the biggest problem with ratlings is that they compete for elites slots. Elites are foot guard's new HS, and there are much better things you can take than ratlings. In fact, I'd dare say every elite choice is better than ratlings.

As such, it's the space, not the points that really hurts them, I'd think.