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I've been working on this for about a week now, and here's what I've cooked up. Nova rules (no extra force org, limited fortifications options). I tried posting this a while back and didn't get any replies. I think I've improved it since then, so hopefully you'll like it a bit better. By removing the vox-casters, I was able to swap in a manticore for the vendetta. This gives me a bit stronger alpha strike and lets me deal with T5 multi-wound opponents a bit better.

It's a pretty basic foot guard list, with Rune Priests subbing in for commissars. With ATSKNF, the blob doesn't need stubborn. Indeed, running away is actually a benefit, since it lets them fire again the next round -- and they can test to do so at with the Rune Priest's initiative. Sergeants are characters, and can accept challenges on behalf of the Rune Priest, should the matchup be favorable. Since the sergeants will be attacking last in almost every encounter, power axes are a no-brainer. And of course, declining a challenge is always an option -- especially since it lowers your leadership for combat resolution and makes you more likely to leave combat. Naturally, the melta bomb Rune Priest goes with the squad with fewer krak grenades, to make up the deficiency.

Typically, the Rune Priests will substitute their psyker powers for divination. The primaris power allows them and their squad to reroll all misses in both melee and ranged combat. This is a fantastic complement to an array of plasma weapons, and that's how I've chosen to field them here. I won't be using their powers much, but I've chosen to have them share JotWW. If I'm going to give up divination, it'd better be for a good reason (Twin-JotWW vs. Necrons)!

I'm fielding the CCS and PCS units without special weapons. They're really there for the orders, and I'm okay with that. With only BS3 and a 5+ armor save, they're a poor choice for plasma, and I really didn't have the points free anyway. I'm probably going to catch flak for leaving them bare, but I just couldn't find the points anywhere.

I hope you like my list, but critique is always welcome!

Edit: Removed Marbo and a HWT. Added another vendetta and a VWT on the CCS.

I'd drop the plasma guns on the PIS and give them to the CCS vets for BS4 and a more concentrated amount of firepower. I find that for 15 points of upgrades, an AC and GL combo works better with PIS than plasma due to only being BS3 and lack of targets that can be hurt by the lone plasma gunner AND the other 9 flashlights. I'd do that and I'd definitely add a rhino for the GH squad so they can go where theyre most needed. Just my two cents, the manticores and vendetta are obviously pro choices.

Twin-linked BS3 is better than BS4 -- especially on plasmas, where a roll of 1 will result in an automatic wound. They also have more ablative wounds to protect the plasma gunner, and won't get mowed down instantly if someone assaults them.

Putting the plasmas on the CCS would mean taking my warlord out of order range for the heavy weapons teams. They'll be needing his regimental standard, GBitF, and BiD orders to be effective. Getting into plasma range compromises all of that and risks giving a free victory point to the opponent. If I had the points, I would add a Veteran Weapons Team to the CCS, but I simply didn't have the points free. In lieu of that, I will be having the CCS man the quad-gun turret.

Autocannons and grenade launchers are heavy weapons, and must be snap-fired to be used on the move. This is too restricting to be practical on units I'm expecting to take over enemy objectives. Plasma is definitely the way to go, especially because they go a long way to compensating for lasgun weaknesses (poor AP and strength values).

Remember -- these are not BS3 models, they are twin-linked BS3 models. BS4 units wish they were that accurate.

As for the Rhino? It'd be nice, but I felt the 35 points were better spent elsewhere -- especially since a wrecked Rhino forces my Ld8 squad to take a pinning test. Keep in mind that my list is almost entirely unmechanized. I have two artillery that don't require LoS and one flier. A rhino would be the single target of every anti-tank weapon in the opponent's army. Better just to footslog it, I think.

Corollax wrote:Twin-linked BS3 is better than BS4 -- especially on plasmas, where a roll of 1 will result in an automatic wound. They also have more ablative wounds to protect the plasma gunner, and won't get mowed down instantly if someone assaults them.

This ^.

Question though : Did you pay to upgrade the infantry squads to have Krak grenades? I assume that you did so because your army lacks the abiity to deal with armor, but I think it's a waste to pay for krak grenades. Here's why...They're only strength 6, and your plasmaguns are already S7 AP2 which is way better for killing light armor because you don't have to get in CC with them. I suppose you can throw the krak grenades at enemy infantry, but again, it's only one strength 6 attack per squad at a range of 6 inches - maybe 8 inches? I can't remember, but either way its' too close.

You have no way to deal with AV 13 + . The vendetta has the lascannons, but it doesn't come in until at least turn 2 and won't last long once it gets there. You should seriously consider getting more melta or more lascannons or both.

I'm a space wolf player, so I know that people are really afraid of Rune Priests. But honestly, you don't need two of them. Consider swapping one out for a wolf priest instead. He will give your Grey Hunters preferred enemy against one unit type (you should choose infantry) and makes them fearless.

Regarding the Rune Priests: Did you read my post? The Rune priests are for escorting the infantry platoons, not the grey hunters. I need one of each so that the squads get ATSKNF and rerollable attacks. Wolf priests aren't very useful, by comparison.

The krak grenades allow the squad to do something against walkers and MCs. Plasmas are great, but I can't use them in CC. I can also use them to pop open tanks, should the opportunity arise.

With respect to AV13/14: I have two manticores and a vendetta. Against enemies with weak rear armor (such as Necrons), Marbo can also cause an initial penetrate with his demolition charge. I think that should be adequate, all things considered.

Corollax wrote:grenade launchers are heavy weapons

Not true.

My mistake. I still can't say I'm motivated to actually bring them, though.

Actually a wolf priest can also give stealth to the IG squad. If you plan on moving forward or staying behind the ADL this is a great skill to have.
Also they would be able to outflank with acute senses if needs be.

As has been mentioned heay weapons mixed into infantry squads are cool, as is having a few flamers just in case you get assaulted.

I would like more vendettas. Then maybe even a few cheap scoring units to travel in one or two.

Divination is quite a bit more useful than stealth. The aegis defence line is strictly for the benefit of my CCS and HWTs. There's not enough room there to house the infantry platoons. Swapping a rune priest for a wolf priest also robs me of vital psychic protection -- a trade I don't feel is particularly wise.

An outflanking infantry platoon is interesting, but it ultimately means I'm left without 500 points of my list for the first turn. In a list that's already running Marbo and a Manticore, I don't think that's a particularly wise idea.

Another vendetta would certainly be nice, but it's going to have to come at the expense of something else -- likely a manticore. Powerblobs do poorly against T5 multi-wound opponents, so I specifically wanted a pair of them to address threats like grotesques, ogryn, and biker nobz. They also serve a vital role in dealing with AV13 and AV14 opponents.

Flamers are nice, but they've gotten significantly harder to use in the new edition. Using a template effectively means being at the front, where wound allocation rules put you at risk of losing that model. I will concede that flamers do help a bit on overwatch, though.

I don't see any value in adding heavy weapons to an infantry platoon. If I use those heavy weapons on an actual tank, it means throwing away the 36 twin-linked FRFSRF lasguns I bought the squad for. And krak grenades can go a ways toward filling that niche, anyway. Meanwhile, my actual heavy weapons teams will be hanging out with my CCS, getting twin-linking of their own from orders, and they lose nothing from attacking their targets.

It kind of sounds like you don't want comments.

I read the post and I read that you wanted the RP's to escort the infantry platoons. I still think you don't need them.

Here's another thing about rune priests. If you stick him in a blob of guardsmen, it's going to be really difficult to use Jaws. (I know you plan to use divination - I'm just saying.)

The divination power is great, but you still have to make a psychic test to use it. In contrast, you don't have to risk perils of the warp to get preferred enemy from the wolf priest. But of course he only gives PE to space wolves and not IG. However, if you just want ATSKNF for your guardsmen, you could save 30 points by taking a WGBL instead.

I'm not an IG player, but to me it sounds like a bad idea to move the IG infantry into assault range even if they "know no fear". As a space wolves player, I can tell you - krak grenades are not a reliable weapon against AV13. Heck ... nothing that requires you to assault a tank is a reliable AT weapon really. Things like meltabombs are a secondary weapon to use when the real plan didn't work. How would your list do against an IG armor company with 10 Lehman Russ'?

Rune Priests are, as I understand it, a 100 point upgrade to a blob that's got: a 90% chance of twin-linking their attacks (and will only see a Perils test every other game assuming you use the power every turn), gives ATSKNF, and gives some very pimp psyker protection against things that are a threat against blobs such as Lashes, Purifying Flame, Doom, and Weaken Resolve.
A WGBL only gives ATSKNF. It seems likely that the extra 30 points is, to say the least, worth adding 50% to the combat efficiency of lasguns, and protecting the unit against some of the more effective means of anti-infantry.
My gut tells me that a twin-linked ATSKNF blob is going to be a lot more effective than a twin-linked-only-when-charging fearless Grey Hunter unit, especially with FRFSRF. I think, as far as Space Wolf HQs goes, she's got the right idea.

As for it being a bad idea to bring guardsmen into CC range with ATSKNF and twin-linked power axes... I think math would suggest that they will perform quite admirably against most enemy options that are not very hardcore-dedicated CC (such as Death Company). They're likely to outshoot most anything that's not Guided Bladestorm Dire Avengers, or Pink Horrors, too, as long as they can get both the divination and First Rank Second Rank off.
Seems to me the list is solid, overall, though it might be light on anti-tank (individual opinions on how mech works in 6e have been wildly varied, I am personally of the opinion that mech got way less viable unless it's fliers, but I've heard people say it got much better somehow. The answer to how common mech will be in 6e has yet to be determined, and that's really what will prove how sufficient/insufficient the list's AT is.)

If the OP is worried about anti-13/14, a possibility would be to simply axe one of her blob+rune-priest combos entirely, and replace with meltavets and another vendetta (the vets could hang out in the vendettas).
This comes at expense of the quite considerable anti-infantry and staying power presented by having two blobs instead of just the one, though. I think it comes down to what you think will be more common in 6e.

An infantry platoon needs something to escort them, or they're going to lose combat resolution and get swept. Normally, this comes in the form of a Commissar with Stubborn and Summary execution. For only 65 points more, I can get a Rune Priest that gives ATSKNF, divination for twin-linking, amazing psychic protection, and a few other miscellaneous benefits including being an IC for Look Out Sir!.

Preferred Enemy and Divination can't be compared, because guardsmen do not get preferred enemy from a wolf priest. The comparison doesn't make any sense, because I cannot use the ability. 

If it were just about surviving combat resolution, I could save 65 points and get a commissar. He won't give any of the myriad of benefits that a Rune Priest gives, but he'd save another 35 points on that WGBL and be eminently better for it.

You're absolutely right. Krak grenades are not reliable anti-AV13 weaponry. Or even functional anti-AV13 weaponry. I never claimed they were. They function adequately against light vehicles, including some walkers. 

With respect to actual anti-AV13 weaponry, I have brought Marbo (S8 AP2 on rear armor), A vendetta (3x Twin-linked S9 AP2, usually on side armor), and two manticores. It doesn't get much more effective than a 2d3 S10 ordnance large blasts -- especially since they now no longer need to place the pinhole over their targets to do full damage. 

To answer your question about the Leman Russ squadrons, my list would do splendidly -- because such a list would be immediately disqualified. Nevermind that that list would be spending at least 1500 points in heavy support alone, you cannot bring more than nine in a single FOC chart. 

If I were really concerned about AV13 and AV14 targets, I could load up one of my PCS with meltaguns and stick them in a vendetta. I'd be giving up orders for my infantry platoons and I'd need to free up another 30 points, but it would be functional -- and more effective than a wolf priest for my grey hunter unit.

feth me my rule book is out of date lol... whoops...

Corollax wrote:An infantry platoon needs something to escort them, or they're going to lose combat resolution and get swept. Normally, this comes in the form of a Commissar with Stubborn and Summary execution. For only 65 points more, I can get a Rune Priest that gives ATSKNF, divination for twin-linking, amazing psychic protection, and a few other miscellaneous benefits including being an IC for Look Out Sir!.

Preferred Enemy and Divination can't be compared, because guardsmen do not get preferred enemy from a wolf priest. The comparison doesn't make any sense, because I cannot use the ability. 

If it were just about surviving combat resolution, I could save 65 points and get a commissar. He won't give any of the myriad of benefits that a Rune Priest gives, but he'd save another 35 points on that WGBL and be eminently better for it.

You're absolutely right. Krak grenades are not reliable anti-AV13 weaponry. Or even functional anti-AV13 weaponry. I never claimed they were. They function adequately against light vehicles, including some walkers. 

With respect to actual anti-AV13 weaponry, I have brought Marbo (S8 AP2 on rear armor), A vendetta (3x Twin-linked S9 AP2, usually on side armor), and two manticores. It doesn't get much more effective than a 2d3 S10 ordnance large blasts -- especially since they now no longer need to place the pinhole over their targets to do full damage. 

To answer your question about the Leman Russ squadrons, my list would do splendidly -- because such a list would be immediately disqualified. Nevermind that that list would be spending at least 1500 points in heavy support alone, you cannot bring more than nine in a single FOC chart. 

If I were really concerned about AV13 and AV14 targets, I could load up one of my PCS with meltaguns and stick them in a vendetta. I'd be giving up orders for my infantry platoons and I'd need to free up another 30 points, but it would be functional -- and more effective than a wolf priest for my grey hunter unit.

It kindof seems like you have an excuse for everything; especially when these guys are all offering very valid critiques. If you didn't want any suggestions for your list, why post it? Or better yet, why not post it in general discussion in a thread where we can all discuss how good it is and how perfect every choice is?

-TheCaptain


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you're combining your 4x infantry squads into one blob, you only need 1 krak grenade upgrade to give them all krak grenades. Works the same as the vox.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You should really lose a manticore and get another vendetta; a single flyer will just soak up shots and barely get to do anything.

(Source: I run aircav.)

TheCaptain wrote:It kindof seems like you have an excuse for everything; especially when these guys are all offering very valid critiques. If you didn't want any suggestions for your list, why post it? Or better yet, why not post it in general discussion in a thread where we can all discuss how good it is and how perfect every choice is?

I'm sorry you feel that way.

TheCaptain wrote:Also, if you're combining your 4x infantry squads into one blob, you only need 1 krak grenade upgrade to give them all krak grenades. Works the same as the vox.

As much as I wish that were true, you don't blob up until the game actually starts. The only models that would get krak grenades are the ones from the original 10 man unit that bought them. Sorry.

TheCaptain wrote:You should really lose a manticore and get another vendetta; a single flyer will just soak up shots and barely get to do anything.
(Source: I run aircav.)

This is precisely the kind of advice I wanted. I will take that under consideration. Thanks.

TheCaptain wrote:Also, if you're combining your 4x infantry squads into one blob, you only need 1 krak grenade upgrade to give them all krak grenades. Works the same as the vox.

As much as I wish that were true, you don't blob up until the game actually starts. The only models that would get krak grenades are the ones from the original 10 man unit that bought them. Sorry.

It does work that way. Read the rule for combined squads, then read the entry for the kraks under infantry squads. Combined squads allows the blob to act as one squad, and kraks give "the whole squad krak grenades". This is no witchcraft, this is merely how the game works. And you declare blobbing before deployment.

Sure, except that combined squads does not happen until after you've chosen the wargear for all your units. Your other three infantry platoons don't suddenly sprout krak grenades from a pocket dimension when they meet up with their buddies at deployment.

When purchasing kraks for the "entire squad", they mean the entire 10-man infantry squad, before you combine them with other squads. If you want the entire blob to have krak grenades, all the constituent models must have them.

Edit: I've created a separate topic to avoid derailing this thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/470590.page#4665340

What they mean and what they write are completely different.
The choice is made at deployment and you can take 2 10 man infantry squads from the same platoon and combine them to make a single 20 man infantry squad.
If you read the exact RAW on pg 37.
Ofcourse, if we did that we wouldn't have 2 SW/HWs in the same "squad".

Sure. And what's written on page 37 has absolutely no bearing on what wargear those models have before deployment.

I like the list. If it were me, I would add more firepower through the IS. I feel you will struggle with extremely mobile lists. SM bike lists or DE list heavy in raiders. In those types of games it would be vital that immobilize them asap, hence a few more heavy weapons to help with. As is, this list puts up a decent fight for a win at a tournament.

Bike lists do worry me. They're usually at least T5, which means my lasguns won't be working particularly well. And while my plasmas get to wound them on 2's, all bikers get at least a 5+ cover save.

I can address nob bikers with manticores, which is a big part of why I've chosen to retain two of them in my list (at the expense of Marbo and some autocannons). I'm not quite sure how to deal with Marine bikers efficiently, though. The colossus looked like it might be the right ticket initially, but the model isn't very cost-efficient.