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First off, you should know that I've been told that I'm too nice. When I first started playing, it was the old chaos codex and I had 1500pt Thousand Sons. This is when the 70+ Genestealer army was dominating. I was told all the time, by the "best" player in the store, that "You only get better by losing a few games".

Since that's out of the way, I'll begin.

So there's this guy at the store. I just... just can't stand to play him. I think he is "slow", but of course I try to be as nice as possible. I want to play many games during a gaming day, and I want them to go smoothly. I want to play everyone, however. He has 100% top-notch attitude when playing his DA army. People who know my playstyle and army would probably agree with me on this, so believe me when I say it: Every time he has won against me, it's because I have held back in order to make sure that he learns the game properly. Sure, I could pick my opponents (and I do), but I hate to see someone sit on the sidelines because no one approaches them for a game. Sometimes, I give in and play him even though a 2k game will be 3 hours.

So when is a good time to stop being the teacher, and start punishing people for their mistakes in a game?

There's a lot of examples I could give. The first is that he always takes special characters without knowing their rules (Only knowing Sicarius' special attack, but not any wargear/special rules). Another one is of a squad of Thousand Sons rapid firing into a Deathwing squad. I say "Okay, ten wounds" and he just removes models. I stop him almost every time I see something like this (making for a LONNNNNG game) and say "Dude, they're only Ap3 bolters, take your 2+ saves".

His response to ANY corrections is always the same game-after-game, no matter the opponent, and with the same expression:

"Okay"



....but it never sticks.

Have you ever seen people learn by losing? Where is the line to draw between baby-sitting and reminding someone of their rules during a game?

If I wanted to play against myself, I have my s/o's Dark Eldar. Maybe this post is less of a cry for help, and more of a rant. I want people to improve their playing so that I can play them.... but I do not want to hold their hand. Let me also add that I am not saying that I am a pro or a top player, only that I feel that I am confident enough to play a game in a manner that doesn't slow it down for my opponent such as doing everything wrong and having to be corrected.

So, with a shameless cry.. Help.

Normally, There is no letting them win in learning to play, but my group is made up of long time gamers, so most catch on quickly.
That being said, maybe this person truly is as you put it "slow", if that be the case, just chalk it up to playing a game, possibly win the next game to guage his reaction.

And yes, I learnt a lot more from my losses then my wins.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. However if you taught him how to fish and he is still hungry slap him in the face with YOUR FISH!

I would say depending on your mood do or donot play him anymore. If you want a REAL game (you know what I mean) dont play him. However, if you want to try some stuff out and just throw some dice and have plenty of time go ahead and play him. But after a while start punishing him for his mistakes but TELL him why he just got ROFLSTOMMPED afterwards. If he still doesnt get it he will either quit playing, get better, or no one will play him anymore because it is like clubbing baby seals.

I just started WH40k and I got tabled in the first 2 games I have played.

I was sooo upset that it wasn't even close and did a lot more research and understood the rules better for my purposes.

I rather be rolled over/Stomped to death/Tabled with humiliation entirely if the person is actually better than I am...
You only become better by losing and reviewing what you have done wrong.

Some people though don't like to become better and just like to stay at their level for the rest of their lives, for my case is when people are playing cards poorly and refusing to listen to advice.

It's totally fine though, but I would still play them but if I stomp them and they whine about losing and won't try to improve then probably I just won't play with them anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just started WH40k and I got tabled in the first 2 games I have played.

I was sooo upset that it wasn't even close and did a lot more research and understood the rules better for my purposes.

I rather be rolled over/Stomped to death/Tabled with humiliation entirely if the person is actually better than I am...
You only become better by losing and reviewing what you have done wrong.

Some people though don't like to become better and just like to stay at their level for the rest of their lives, for my case is when people are playing cards poorly and refusing to listen to advice.

It's totally fine though, but I would still play them but if I stomp them and they whine about losing and won't try to improve then probably I just won't play with them anymore.

Don't let the student beat the teacher. Don't hold back when you play anyone because your doing them an injustice. I would be pissed if someone gave me a charity win, and I would always end up 2nd guessing myself if I truely beat you one day.

Some people learn slower than others. It sounds like to me he may not fully understand the finer rules of the game and does not take the time to learn them. Punish! Worst case secenario is he nerd rages and sales his models and you get them for cheap. If he is a nice guy then help him after the game by talking about what could have happened...soften his defeat by offering advice.

This is what I wanted, it's nice to hear how others view the situation.

I'm glad it's not just a "wtf, don't play him"

I will try another game with him, and see how it goes when I am a little more "deadly".

Some people do really struggle to learn rule though. It's not always because they just don't want to learn, sometimes they just struggle with memorizing stats. I agree that can be frustrating when someone looks up (say) ork boyz BS for the tenth time in a game (this has happened to me on multiple occasions, same player), but I think you have to accept that some folk really want to play the game but also really struggle to master the rules because they're not the sort of person that readily remembers things like BS2 = 5+ to hit, stormbolters are AP4, etc.

WTF, dont play him!!!

No seriously if he is not getting it thats not your fault, you've tried to teach him and it has not taken, dont be a dick about it but make your excuses and play other people.

Its meant to be a fun hobby not a job or a chore.

Tabled a regular player again, even after bringing a rather weak list (imo) mainly because he always lost and all of his tactics used to be "Move forward".

Told him why he lost and told him what could be done to get a better result, he yelled at me, complaining how OP my army was / me being lucky / etc. you know the deal.

Played with his army vs my army, tabled him mid turn 3. Did not say anything, he ran out of the room, never heard of him again. He just left me standing there with all the minis.

In short, it ends when you're not having fun, you shouldn't have to go out of your way to make the game "fun" for someone.

That said, one of my friends is kinda like him, after countless games of him losing, and complaining about how his army is weak, I took a quick glance at his codex for the very first time, and I could easily spot how many USRs he had simply forgotten... So now, we made it a habit to make sure he knows what he is doing every game, reminding him of his USRs the best we could, but we wouldn't go as far as playing easy, letting him win, or allowing him to break the rules(shooting heavy at full BS after moving, assault after firing rapid fire/heavy, etc). He is still losing a lot, and still just as forgetful, but at the very least, he knows that it's not his army that's weak, it's that he's not using his army right... or we hope...

Baronyu wrote:
In short, it ends when you're not having fun, you shouldn't have to go out of your way to make the game "fun" for someone.

That said, one of my friends is kinda like him, after countless games of him losing, and complaining about how his army is weak, I took a quick glance at his codex for the very first time, and I could easily spot how many USRs he had simply forgotten... So now, we made it a habit to make sure he knows what he is doing every game, reminding him of his USRs the best we could, but we wouldn't go as far as playing easy, letting him win, or allowing him to break the rules(shooting heavy at full BS after moving, assault after firing rapid fire/heavy, etc). He is still losing a lot, and still just as forgetful, but at the very least, he knows that it's not his army that's weak, it's that he's not using his army right... or we hope...

Yeah, being helpful doesn't mean throwing a game or playing poorly to give your opponent a chance. it may, however, involve an amount of reminding him of some rules (like if he forgets overwatch, say) or to ve/fire a unit he's overlooked. Nobody should feel compelled to do this of course, But if you're playing a game with someone who's struggling with the rules, why not help them out a bit?

I am pretty proud that you guys are able to discuss this sort of thing like adults.

Other topics on this forum usually turn into rudeness to other posters.

I'm definitely encouraged to have another game with this person, which is what I ultimately want to say about everyone.

It sounds like he possibly has a learning disorder, unless I read the op wrong.
Having struggle with one it can be impossible to learn some things, or can even result in learning something the wrong way and can never correct it.

It's nice that you are going to play him again makes me feal all fuzzy that you care, good post to read so early in the morning.

Ive just had my first game since 2nd ed on sunday, I borrowed the army from the club it was at and wanting to be fair I only used what I had there i.e 3 tac squads with just flamers as there were no HW models so I knew I wasnt going to have much of a chance but couldnt moan when someone is lending me a fully painted 1750pt army!.

I pre arranged a game with a member of that club with him knowing I am a new player (though I did read the basics of the 6th book the night before) and he said he was using a new army, of course I lost even though at one point i had first blood and 3 objectives I just had nothing to take out the broadsides or allied terms effectively. The opponent was very fair offering to give me first turn etc but I said I would rather play as it is meant to be played so i know for next time of course having experince of 2nd ed and reading the amount of bat reps i have and rules querys over the past few weeks has helped massivley.

All the information is out there (and on here) for players wanting to learn or improve etc they have just got to do it themselves or with a little help, but sadly there is no helping some people

Apple fox wrote:
It sounds like he possibly has a learning disorder, unless I read the op wrong.
Having struggle with one it can be impossible to learn some things, or can even result in learning something the wrong way and can never correct it.

It's nice that you are going to play him again makes me feal all fuzzy that you care, good post to read so early in the morning.

You read right, though I'm in no place to diagnose anything.

I get frustrated with people just like everyone else, but there's no reason for me to outright be mean of course!

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
Some people do really struggle to learn rule though. It's not always because they just don't want to learn, sometimes they just struggle with memorizing stats. I agree that can be frustrating when someone looks up (say) ork boyz BS for the tenth time in a game (this has happened to me on multiple occasions, same player), but I think you have to accept that some folk really want to play the game but also really struggle to master the rules because they're not the sort of person that readily remembers things like BS2 = 5+ to hit, stormbolters are AP4, etc.

Where are these stormbolters that fire at AP4? I'd love some myself

If you want to help him a bit on remembering the rules, you can have him create some cards on the side with the USR's for his army to glance at during the game, maybe a few individual ones for his units. In this way even if he's not sure he can just glance down and check.

Give him some flash-cards with rules.

Stuff like "When your unit takes Wounds, roll your armor save, then allocate wounds" or whatever. Kinda like, I dunno, a flow-chart or quick reference or, I dunno, that sort of thing.

Well one of the glories of teaching is seeing the success or the outcome of the student, if you don't then your not teaching very well. Now that's not a knock against you man you seem nice but at the same time I think you keep trying to teach the same way. Course teaching a genius vs slow are two different successes. Geniuses often teach themselves. perhaps a different direction would work. Also a direct talk about it is good too. Maybe say "Hey... I know we've played a few games and I bring rules up now and then but some times its the same rules. Would it be easier if we had some reference cards to help you?" I really donno how long you've been playing this guy, but your frustration is evident. Especially if you get the owl look and the okay, but in that guys thinking he might feel ashamed or dumb. But again that's approachable if you deal with it gently.

So why is this eating you? I'm guessing its cause he never gets a game and you feel its wrong for a guy not to play when he is there waiting and willing to play, even if he gets his head caved in. I admire that myself but in your situation I guess if I went threw all my tries and what not with cards, play threw and just coming to a brick wall. I guess I would ask him if it was alright if you played combat patrol or 1k lists with no special characters. Simplifying the game might help too, sounds like he has to many things going on and he isn't even understanding the basic concept of BS roll > S to T > Wounds > Save. But I'd say trying to be honest with him and give him some compassion he might be happy bout that and then you can get back to basics without the 3 hour grind and then hopefully he wont feel ashamed / nervous while playing and actually learn.

All I gotta say is there's always that guy everyone gives up on for whatever reason. It's too much trouble, its to much time, its to much headache. So everyone goes around quietly ignoring him cause of all those features that persist with him. You've done a noble thing to give chance after chance to learn from(A 1k son player even you master of intellect) you. Your patience appears to be overwhelming(again 1k sons), I think part of getting stuff to stick, is to have fun with it, have success with things and know its correct. Same time you have to have fun teaching / playing just as much as he tries to find fun in playing / learning. Which bolds me to ask, Have you asked him why he plays the army he does specifically. Asking him things like that would give you insight into his thinking / personality. Then you could get a better idea of why things have gone the way they have. Really sounds like a crappy situation and at the end of your rope. Hate to see it really, but everyone has there cutting point.

-Sincerely Viridian

Without sounding harsh, I recommend to absolutely crush him.

Reason being, if you 'hold back' and he ends up winning, he'll come away from the game like "Well, that went well" and he'll move onto thinking about dinner, or something. But if he loses badly, he'll want to know why he loses badly, he'll start thinking about the battle he just had and what he could have done to make it better. It's the same priniple as when you think of something really witty you should have said in an argument you had two hours ago.

Now, this trick is normally used for improving people's tactics but I guess it could work with rules too. Take your Deathwing example, say you had let him remove those 10 models, he might think back on why his Deathwing had performed so badly. Then he might remember that they have 2+ saves and therefore most should have survived. Chances are that this'll stick.

Of course, it's best to explain to the other guys in your group why you're doing this. Don't want no WAAC-accusations and maybe they could help out too.

I played my first game just the other day...I got a little confused by the rules at time , but considering I was using vassal I think it went rather well. I was absolutely destroyed...fething eldar jetbikes

When I started It wasn't so much anybody let me win. It was a case of the players I went against let me make a few corrections to my moves and shooting allocations, they did this for my first few games then just left me to it so now I've become a teacher to a few guys myself and I follow this same approach, sometimes they win but sometimes I win, I mean they need to learn to be gracious in victory and defeat otherwise playing them wouldn't be at all fun.

If someone ever says I am WAAC, they don't know much about Thousand Sons lists.. I doubt (hope not) the other regulars at the store would ever see me this way.

Also, I take that entire post as a compliment, Viridian.

I'm no hero. Just trying to make sure everyone who spends all this gott-damned money gets good games in, y'know?

Everyone here has good input so far.

I think I know who you are talking about, bro.

If he is who I think he is, he isn't too bad, just needs to polish up on the Rules. Once he gets all of the rules more or less down pat, tactics will start clicking better.

When I first got into 40k, my best friend and his dad taught me. Both vets of the game that are at tbs every chance they get, mostly weekdays.

They did not hold my hand or hold back in the slightest. This was back in the days of early-mid 4th before I got my Tau and was rocking oldcrons. I got an introductory 500 point game for that basics and they more or less expected me to keep up and learn from there. Because of that, the games as Crons were fairly brutal(and since I was flipping through books checking things constantly, If we got to turn 2 after three hours it was a fast game) , but once I got the Tau at the end of 4th/start of 5th, I had enough experience from earlier play that I was able to start making ties against them. And eventually towards the end of 5th/start of 6th, the games are still fairly close with me starting to take an edge. I thank the endless hours I spend lurking on ATT and posting on Dakka for that more than that teaching style though.

I would slowing ween him off of your help. if he makes a mistake, correct him, But kinda start weening him off of your rules knowledge. For example, The next game you have, tell him what he needs to roll for what. The game after that, just stick to telling him to wound rolls. After that game, AP values of the weapon he is currently using in CC and what that means to your guys( "Your Power Sword is ap3, so my Tson doesn't get his armor save, but he does get his 4+ invuln" kinda of stuff.)

Ill remind people of rules any time they miss something or forget something (such as forgetting that Terminators have a 2+ save, reminding them that they had a reroll to hit blessing on a unit etc). I won't help them on a tactical level though, unless they are very new to the game.

If its a rule thats a little more complex though and I have no problem reminding them what should be done to get the most advantage (i.e. A couple of my gaming group didn't really understand how to allocate wounds to reduce casualties in 5th edition and if I saw them doing something that was an obvious disadvantage I'd reaollocate the wounds for them and explain why it was better that way.)

Indeed...

Ah, you mean Dakota? I see him and his dad occasionally there.

Yeah, they are good guys. And playing against them is always a kick.

I will correct rules, and basics 2+ Ac vs AP3 etc. But I don't like to suggest tactics or the like...

After the game, I try to offer thoughts. "Well you had a bad series of rolling 1s on those terminator saves." "It didn't help that my Lash went off 3 out of 4 times in the game..." "Do you think you were too aggressive with your sternguard squad." "Why did you ignore the Doom of Malantai for turn 3?" If you keep the game fun for both sides, then you can help a player to improve his play. Just don't hand him a game...

Just never teach, The best way to a winning list and mind is getting your behind handed to you on a platter over and over. Right now you are teaching hiim his list/tactics are sound when they may not be. No one taught me and i have been winning more and more games lately because i refined my list and my strategy.
Im glad no one was ever easy one me.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Tabled a regular player again, even after bringing a rather weak list (imo) mainly because he always lost and all of his tactics used to be "Move forward".

Told him why he lost and told him what could be done to get a better result, he yelled at me, complaining how OP my army was / me being lucky / etc. you know the deal.

Played with his army vs my army, tabled him mid turn 3. Did not say anything, he ran out of the room, never heard of him again. He just left me standing there with all the minis.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks. Manchu

Sweet free army.

I know how this guy feels like, though i've only had one game.

Myself and 2 of my mates are starting again with 6th ed. Had a 1v1v1 game that went for 4 turns in 3 hours

Next game'll be easier!