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Page 61 on Assault grenade says: "one model can choose to throw a grenade rather than using another shooting weapon". But the Attack Bike allows both riders to shoot. Would this mean a squad with a single attack bike can shoot the multi-melta and throw a grenade too? (before charging in?).

NM,


No you cannot Shoot the Main gun and throw a grenade; the Attack bike is 1 model, which is the rule for exchange.

Yes you can use the main gun and a grenade, you have permission to use two weapons, you forfeit one of those satisfying the "rather than using another shooting weapon" clause and make the grenade attack.

It doesn't matter that it's a single model, the rule only demands you forfeit the shooting of one weapon.

The grenade doesn't say "instead of shooting" like Run, Flat Out and so on. It simply says rather than using another shooting weapon. IMO this means yes - an assault bike or other unit that can shoot several weapons can throw a grenade at the price of not using one of it's guns.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Yes you can use the main gun and a grenade, you have permission to use two weapons, you forfeit one of those satisfying the "rather than using another shooting weapon" clause and make the grenade attack.

It doesn't matter that it's a single model, the rule only demands you forfeit the shooting of one weapon.

No, It demands you forfeit the shooting of "another Shooting weapon"

Your attack bike(or Marine IC with Auxilliary Grenade Launcher, or MC) is 1 model so to follow the rules you have your 1 model in the unit throwing it's grenades instead of using another weapon.

If you are trying to fire another weapon while throwing a grenade you are breaking the rules plain and simple.


Spetulhu: It cannot say "instead of shooting" because throwing a grenade is shooting. See my argument above for the rest of your assertion.

So... normally you can fire two weapons. You swap one out with a grenade toss. Seems ok to me.

jms40k wrote:
So... normally you can fire two weapons. You swap one out with a grenade toss. Seems ok to me.

Where are the rules to support Spleens claim of 1 weapon exchanged?

He even cited the rules that state another weapon cannot be fired.

Your model is tossing grenades and shooting it's multi-melta; A,long with tossing grenades is it shooting another weapon?

Yes, the Multi-melta; therefore you are breaking the rules.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

jms40k wrote:
So... normally you can fire two weapons. You swap one out with a grenade toss. Seems ok to me.

Where are the rules to support Spleens claim of 1 weapon exchanged?

He even cited the rules that state another weapon cannot be fired.

Your model is tossing grenades and shooting it's multi-melta; A,long with tossing grenades is it shooting another weapon?

Yes, the Multi-melta; therefore you are breaking the rules.

The rules for a space marine attack bike specifically allow each rider to fire a weapon. One gives up their normal weapon to throw the grenade, that's your "instead of another weapon".

jms40k wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

jms40k wrote:
So... normally you can fire two weapons. You swap one out with a grenade toss. Seems ok to me.

Where are the rules to support Spleens claim of 1 weapon exchanged?

He even cited the rules that state another weapon cannot be fired.

Your model is tossing grenades and shooting it's multi-melta; A,long with tossing grenades is it shooting another weapon?

Yes, the Multi-melta; therefore you are breaking the rules.

The rules for a space marine attack bike specifically allow each rider to fire a weapon. One gives up their normal weapon to throw the grenade, that's your "instead of another weapon".

Attack Bikes are still 1 model; the grenade Rules force 1 model to give up shooting another weapon to throw grenades.

Again what about a MC with grenades(Carnifex within a certain distance to a venomthrope); or a Space Marine Captain the an AGL; they both have specific rules that allow them to fire 2 weapons but the Grenade rules come in and deny "another weapon".

RAI, it seems pretty clear that, at least in the case of the attack bike, one rider should be able to throw a grenade. RAW? Well, what does "rather than using another weapon" mean when the model can fire two weapons? Either a.) Instead of using ANY OTHER weapon or b.) in place of another weapon in its arsenal.

So the attack bike shoots one weapon, then throws a grenade "rather than using another shooting weapon".
Nothing suggests that a model allowed to shoot more than one weapon must give up all shooting attacks to throw a grenade.

I would say that if a an MC has access to grenades, as in the previous Carnifex close to a Venomthrope example, that MC would be able to shoot a main gun and throw a grenade.


Don't Carnifexes have two guns already, though?
(I don't play Nids, so I could be completely off.)

It doesn't say a model abandons all of its other shooting attacks, it says the model can choose to throw a grenade rather than using another weapon. You don't fire the bolter and throw a grenade, the MM fires. The model has chosen to throw a grenade rather than using another shooting weapon.

Well My Jump captain with agl just got better then: 2 Str 6 ap 4 krak grenades, or 2 Str 3 blasts(From frag grenades) before every assault.

Normally the attack bike may fire it's side car gun and the main twin linked heavy bolter, therefore you may forgo the one weapon for another.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Well My Jump captain with agl just got better then: 2 Str 6 ap 4 krak grenades, or 2 Str 3 blasts(From frag grenades) before every assault.

?????

Page 61 says only one grenade, of any type, can be thrown per unit per shooting phase. But if AGL (I have no idea what that is or what it does) lets them shoot two weapons in the shooting phase then yes your Jump Captain can shoot one of his other guns and throw a grenade. He still can't throw two grenades though.

AGL is Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. It allows the model to fire an extra Assault Grenade on top of normal shooting.

leohart wrote:
AGL is Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. It allows the model to fire an extra Assault Grenade on top of normal shooting.

Ahhh, AGL. I never use them so I didn't recognize the acronym. I am going to have to think about that one. Does the AGL count as throwing a grenade for the purposes of limiting how many grenades can be thrown per Shooting phase. Hmm, that is a good one. My gut instinct is yes you can do that, making AGL a lot more worth taking, but at the same time you are technically throwing it, albeit with the explosive force of a grenade launcher (so technically shooting it not throwing it). Discuss while I ponder.

The wording is "in addition to another weapon".
No reason why that other weapon can't be a thrown grenade.

So I can use my Shrike Captain model as a Captain with dual claws, Artificer and AGL? That is not not too shabby.

 grendel083 wrote:
The wording is "in addition to another weapon".
No reason why that other weapon can't be a thrown grenade.

That's why my first thought is yes. And an AGL is not throwing it as I previously said, it is most definitely firing it so the limitation of one grenade per unit per shooting phase is still in tact. Alright, yes Kel your Jump Captain did just get a boost.

An AGL is a ranged weapon that can be fired in addition to another ranged weapon.

Captain throws his Frag grenade. Then he fires the AGL in addition to another ranged weapon.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Well My Jump captain with agl just got better then: 2 Str 6 ap 4 krak grenades, or 2 Str 3 blasts(From frag grenades) before every assault.

This was always the case, as others have pointed out. The AGL can be fired in addition to any other weapon.

Does this mean that a model with two lightning claw and no range weapon cannot throw his grenade?

leohart wrote:
Does this mean that a model with two lightning claw and no range weapon cannot throw his grenade?

I would say that is correct.
I don't think you can say, instead of firing nothing, here comes a grenade.
Doesn't he come with a pistol? Or does he lose than when you upgrade to the claws?

Here's another one...
Tec marine with servo harnes can fire his own gun, and the plasma/flamer.
So he should be able to fire his own gun, and then have the harness toss the grenade, yes?

-Matt

Techmarine can fire one of his guns and a servo arm gun, or two servo arm guns. Regardless of if it is thrown by the arm or techmarine he can shoot one of his guns and throw a grenade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leohart wrote:
Does this mean that a model with two lightning claw and no range weapon cannot throw his grenade?

Depends. If they have a pistol as Wargear they could choose to not fire that and throw the grenade.

I think that the dual claw captain would still be able to toss a grenade with out a pistol. How many times a model can shoot dose not depend on what his equipment is, he still gets one chance to shoot but has no weapon to use. Same as a model with 2 guns can only shoot once, barring special rules. So a dual claw captain could use a grenade instead of another weapon, that he could have had but dose not, and pop off his AGL due to its rules.

You do not have to have something in order to forfeit it.

Otherwise a model without any ranged weapons cannot Run.