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Why do people complain about the Grey Knights(especially Draigo), the Ultramarines and the Space Wolves being mary sues?
Also, why does the Mary Sue complaint pertain only to the Imperium? I mean if you look at the Space Marine chapters I mentioned, sure they win a lot, but they also have lost quite a few battles and have quite a few flaws that keeps them from being perfect

On the other hand, no one seems to complain about, say, Warboss Garaghak, that guy took over many Imperial planets and installions AND defeated many space marine chapters(including a founding chapter, Ravenguard) and destroyed a bunch of IG regiments(including the highly trained Elysian Drop Troops and Harkoni Warhawks) with virtually no effort and losses. In addition, the daemon Skulltaker has killed many grey knight captains and he's only a bloodletter(a powerful one but still a lesser daemon).

I think its just hypocritical for people to complain about the Grey Knights and such.

I think one of the things about Mary Sues (or John Stus) is the idea of self-insertion, which is pretty easy to do with many characters/factions within the Imperium, even if they are super-human soldiers. Space Marines were once humans after all, and are still fighting for humanity. This is in turn related back to us, the players, who are (hopefully) human.

It's harder to accuse any xenos or daemon of being Mary Sues because a) as established, there's far more stories glorifying the Imperium, but also because b) they are xenos and daemons. They cant be Mary Sues because its harder for any element of self-insertion to come into it. Rather, they become the opposition/object of adversity which allows the Mary Sue Marines to be Mary Sues.

Mary Sue.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:
Why do people complain about the Grey Knights(especially Draigo), the Ultramarines and the Space Wolves being mary sues?
Also, why does the Mary Sue complaint pertain only to the Imperium? I mean if you look at the Space Marine chapters I mentioned, sure they win a lot, but they also have lost quite a few battles and have quite a few flaws that keeps them from being perfect

On the other hand, no one seems to complain about, say, Warboss Garaghak, that guy took over many Imperial planets and installions AND defeated many space marine chapters(including a founding chapter, Ravenguard) and destroyed a bunch of IG regiments(including the highly trained Elysian Drop Troops and Harkoni Warhawks) with virtually no effort and losses. In addition, the daemon Skulltaker has killed many grey knight captains and he's only a bloodletter(a powerful one but still a lesser daemon).

I think its just hypocritical for people to complain about the Grey Knights and such.

Because none of the other factions have a special character who holds Daemon Primarchs to the ground and writes on them, fistfights Bloodthirsters in the Warp and wins, destroys the domain of Chaos Gods, etc.

The Space Wolves have plot armour that makes the hull of a Monolith look like Flak Armour, along with other traits that will no doubt be mentioned here (I can't wait to participate in the epic Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves flamewar )

Ultramarines? It's mostly Ward's fault... There's really no denying the favoritism he displays towards the faction. Go look up his interviews, where he goes into manchild mode to gush over the awesomeness of the Ultramarines. It's kind of funny.

Also, until the 5e codex, you did get the occasional person calling the Necrons Sues (I have a friend who still does but he's a buttmad Tyranid player), and occasionally someone referring to the Tyranids as such.

 Ronin wrote:
It's harder to accuse any xenos or daemon of being Mary Sues because a) as established, there's far more stories glorifying the Imperium, but also because b) they are xenos and daemons. They cant be Mary Sues because its harder for any element of self-insertion to come into it. Rather, they become the opposition/object of adversity which allows the Mary Sue Marines to be Mary Sues.

Mary Sue.

Yo dawg, so I herd you like Mary Sue...

But in all seriousness, I agree with this sentiment. The fluff of 40K is mostly imperium-centric (read BL bolter porn). The fact that the enemy is super tough is considered natural, while the fact that SM can beat them is what makes them heroic. In some cases, the villain has been hyped up so much (looking at you, Mortarion, death guard were always a useless legion...) that the hero beating them seems ridiculous. However, the Imperium being beaten seems only natural, as the odds are stacked against them.

The only xenos I can think of as being often considered mary sue are the Tau. For heretics, freakin Abbadon gets hyped up a lot for 13 failed crusades and 10 000 years of ineffectual campaigning.

 Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:


The only xenos I can think of as being often considered mary sue are the Tau.

I never understand this, why? They're arguably the weakest playable faction in 40k, who could probably be annihilated by a concentrated effort from anyone except perhaps the Dark Eldar. They're physically inferior to humans, their fleets are garbage, and their technology, although flashy, is still inferior to the Imperium's in the long run.

Tau are nothing like Mary Sues.

Its all Imperium Centric as the IMperium = Humanity.
and because its easier to relate to a human being because we the player/consumer/whatever are human as well (or at least i think most are ) we relate to them.

Sure the Space Marines are 7 to 9 foot tall Genetically and Cybernetically enhanced to the point they are far from being human but they are still for the most part "human"

Its hard to relate to a Space Elf/Fungus/Evil Elf/Egyption Zombie Robot/Starship Troopers Extra/Blue Space Communist/or whatever the heck else.

1d4chan wrote:Originally a Mary Sue is a character that is a shameless self-insert, poorly developed, without flaws and stupidly overpowered. /tg/ hates Mary Sues.

This appears most commonly with Marine armies re. see Calgar back-hand an Avatar to death, the Dragio incident

Also

1d4chan wrote:Marneus, Mar-n-eus, (e and s swap places) Mar-n-sue, (turn the n upsidedown), Mar-u-sue, (give the you a tail): Mary sue

Never heard anyone refer to Space Wolves as Mary Sues though...

 The_Solitaire wrote:
Never heard anyone refer to Space Wolves as Mary Sues though...

Really?

There are quite a few Space Wolf haters on this very site.

Also, until the 5e codex, you did get the occasional person calling the Necrons Sues (I have a friend who still does but he's a buttmad Tyranid player), and occasionally someone referring to the Tyranids as such.

Because their fluff was probably the first thing that was an encompassing black hole

At the very least Wards fluff generally only sticks with the book it's written in, the necron C'tans were nearly becoming the All Encompassing Plot Behind EVERYTHING. Tyranids All consuming Hunger? Hinted to be led by C'tan. Chaos Gods themselves? Fear the C'tan and their all empowering Necrons. Thing that won quite a few battles and never seemed to fall? Necrons. Never died and just came back for another go, Actually killed daemons permanently without needing specialized anti-daemon artifacts? Necrons

Heck, a "Golden Skinned Man" Even gave Abbadon his Daemon Sword, which is basically the C'tan Deceiver...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Tyranids All consuming Hunger? Hinted to be led by C'tan.

This was never hinted in the fluff, not once. This is a fan theory that people for some reason people latched onto.

Chaos Gods themselves? Fear the C'tan and their all empowering Necrons.

Actually the Chaos Gods were created by humanity, the Warp just took a darker turn to Chaos due to the War in Heaven. That didn't encroach on anyone's fluff, since how Chaos came to be was (IIRC anyway) not elaborated upon before that.

Thing that won quite a few battles and never seemed to fall? Necrons.

No one loses battles in their own codex (Except Tyranids )

Never died and just came back for another go, Actually killed daemons permanently without needing specialized anti-daemon artifacts? Necrons

Don't recall this, when was that?

Heck, a "Golden Skinned Man" Even gave Abbadon his Daemon Sword, which is basically the C'tan Deceiver...

Perhaps.

You missed "The Dragon is the Machine God".

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Tyranids All consuming Hunger? Hinted to be led by C'tan.

This was never hinted in the fluff, not once. This is a fan theory that people for some reason people latched onto.

Some used the hints in "The tyranids were running from something even more frightening in their universe" to take it as C'tan

Chaos Gods themselves? Fear the C'tan and their all empowering Necrons.

Actually the Chaos Gods were created by humanity, the Warp just took a darker turn to Chaos due to the War in Heaven. That didn't encroach on anyone's fluff, since how Chaos came to be was (IIRC anyway) not elaborated upon before that.

I never stated they created the Chaos Gods, just that the demons of chaos fear their might.

Thing that won quite a few battles and never seemed to fall? Necrons.

No one loses battles in their own codex (Except Tyranids )

They were winning battles in other codex's as well, even black library had them as more frightening then chaos itself.

Never died and just came back for another go, Actually killed daemons permanently without needing specialized anti-daemon artifacts? Necrons

Don't recall this, when was that?

One of the older Black Library books, about the Gauss Pylons

Heck, a "Golden Skinned Man" Even gave Abbadon his Daemon Sword, which is basically the C'tan Deceiver...

Perhaps.

You missed "The Dragon is the Machine God".

I did miss that one yeah, and that one was a very prominent one that I still don't understand with the Children of the Dragon and all that..

Well messed that quote box up, but the problem was the C'tan was becoming a very powerful influence on the fluff at times.

 FinalAnswer wrote:

Tau are nothing like Mary Sues.

Commander Shadowsun is an astounding commander of both naval and ground forces. She managed to destroy a Tyranid splinter fleet with no ship losses, a feat never said to have been replicated by any other faction.

Still, the term Mary Sue seems to be used too much. Tyranids, Chaos followers, Orks and Necrons can't really have it applied to them as they don't have the right sort of personalities (Tyranids don't have one, Chaos followers are evil, Orks are simply violent and the Necron leaders have various signs of insanity) I doubt many people would exactly want to be like any of them. In terms of plot-armour or some such, I'd probably say the Tyranids are top of the line. Whenever they lose a force, there's always more. Their fleets tend to splinter and are difficult to track leading to them remaining a threat. A single Hive Fleet surviving planetfall can enable it to produce enough biomass to threaten a powerful Ork Empire. The Doom of Malan'tai single-handedly took out a Craftworld.They can produce a bio-titan capable of downing an entire Titan Legion. And, of course, they never lose experience or anything, because it all just goes back to the Hive Mind. Not to mention the Swarmlord easily outsmarted Calgar and the Ultramarines, and whoever else. Also, they're the only truely united faction in 40K (although they do like to munch each other from time to time, but that doesn't really lose them any biomass, because they're just that efficient).

The problems with Mary sues is never that they are Mary sues. It's because they are boring characters. I guess people think the GK, SW, Nids, Tau, ect are boring fractions.

I found the GKs kind of boring myself.

Personally, I don't think that a lot of people are actually using "Mary Sue" because they think it refers to some sort of self-insertion, but simply because it has come to describe characters that have little to no real flaws but a whole lot of perks, and who somehow seem to come out on top of even the most hopeless situations - and in a way that makes it look as if they do this daily before breakfast. Depending on your perception of the setting and the faction in question, some of the fluff just seems to take things a liiittle too far from time to time. It is also a derogatory term used to express dislike born (at least partially) out of specifically such observations.

The_Solitaire wrote:Never heard anyone refer to Space Wolves as Mary Sues though...

I do. They're the one faction in 40k I use this term for.

They manage to beat back an entire Segmentum(!) worth of Guard and Navy, get away with pissing off just about every Imperial Adeptus in existence (including the Inquisition) without the repercussions that should logically follow (indeed the opposite is the case: factions they have slighted in the past suddenly turn around to help them if the Wolves ask), and generally win 99.9% of all fights they appear in, seemingly with few casualties. Their current Codex is a collection of the silliest feats, right up to boarding a 12.000 mile long space whale. Perhaps even more disturbing is how far they are removed from what you'd usually expect from Space Marines - these are not monastic warriors who have sacrificed a part of their humanity to become what they are, they're a gang of drunk bearded bikers in power armour with a rebellious streak to appeal to likeminded kids. And don't get me started on the "Wulfen Curse" being a flaw. It's not a flaw when people think it's cool to be a werewolf.
The sad part is that the core concept of the Space Wolves contains everything that would've been necessary to make them really cool. Space Vikings! How can you not dig that idea? Unfortunately, with the SW, the writers have simply overdone it. Too much "special snowflake", a little "too epic", trying to be too many things at once, with a track record that just reads a little too successful compared to anyone else.

nomotog wrote:I guess people think the GK, SW, Nids, Tau, ect are boring fractions.

Partially true. I do consider characters interesting only when they have flaws, but for the level of dislike I have for the Space Wolves, just being boring wouldn't be enough. I think that for me, this army's subjective level of ridiculousness feels a bit as if it'd basically drag the entire franchise down by acting as if the Imperium just doesn't care at all for such shenanigans. It'd be like having Superman in the movie 1984.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 FinalAnswer wrote:

Tau are nothing like Mary Sues.

Commander Shadowsun is an astounding commander of both naval and ground forces. She managed to destroy a Tyranid splinter fleet with no ship losses, a feat never said to have been replicated by any other faction.

It also dosen't help that shadow sun is quite lacking in characterization.

Some forces of Chaos definitely qualify as Villain Sue. The Sons of Malice come to mind-- the lore reads like some whiny six year old's attempt to write "omg the bets cahpter evar!".

Tyranids can be this as well-- "oh they'll just adapt to that, they'll adapt to that, they'll adapt to everything and they're unbeatable by anyone anywhere, and even fi they are beaten by some plot armor or other, there's always more of them they're infinite and they'll never end".

Mary sue does not ONLY mean self-insert. That's just worthless pedantry by people who don't understand the meaning and origin of the term.

 Lynata wrote:
Personally, I don't think that a lot of people are actually using "Mary Sue" because they think it refers to some sort of self-insertion, but simply because it has come to describe characters that have little to no real flaws but a whole lot of perks, and who somehow seem to come out on top of even the most hopeless situations - and in a way that makes it look as if they do this daily before breakfast. Depending on your perception of the setting and the faction in question, some of the fluff just seems to take things a liiittle too far from time to time. It is also a derogatory term used to express dislike born (at least partially) out of specifically such observations.

The_Solitaire wrote:Never heard anyone refer to Space Wolves as Mary Sues though...

I do. They're the one faction in 40k I use this term for.

They manage to beat back an entire Segmentum(!) worth of Guard and Navy, get away with pissing off just about every Imperial Adeptus in existence (including the Inquisition) without the repercussions that should logically follow (indeed the opposite is the case: factions they have slighted in the past suddenly turn around to help them if the Wolves ask), and generally win 99.9% of all fights they appear in, seemingly with few casualties. Their current Codex is a collection of the silliest feats, right up to boarding a 12.000 mile long space whale. Perhaps even more disturbing is how far they are removed from what you'd usually expect from Space Marines - these are not monastic warriors who have sacrificed a part of their humanity to become what they are, they're a gang of drunk bearded bikers in power armour with a rebellious streak to appeal to likeminded kids. And don't get me started on the "Wulfen Curse" being a flaw. It's not a flaw when people think it's cool to be a werewolf.
The sad part is that the core concept of the Space Wolves contains everything that would've been necessary to make them really cool. Space Vikings! How can you not dig that idea? Unfortunately, with the SW, the writers have simply overdone it. Too much "special snowflake", a little "too epic", trying to be too many things at once, with a track record that just reads a little too successful compared to anyone else.

nomotog wrote:I guess people think the GK, SW, Nids, Tau, ect are boring fractions.

Partially true. I do consider characters interesting only when they have flaws, but for the level of dislike I have for the Space Wolves, just being boring wouldn't be enough. I think that for me, this army's subjective level of ridiculousness feels a bit as if it'd basically drag the entire franchise down by acting as if the Imperium just doesn't care at all for such shenanigans. It'd be like having Superman in the movie 1984.

I quess Bill King,Abnett and ADB are bad writers then...well like Void_Dragon said,there are a few SW haters( read: TS fans ) on this site and they are all on my ignore button fortunately...
Well Lynata I do get your logic because it don't comes from rage,just pure logic (or what do you think is logic for 40k),so I do not agree with you,but I do get you...
And likeminded kids?I'm 30 year old computer engineer with tons of fantasy books in my head, and I worship them ! Why ? Because in grimdark there has to be someone who is still the same chapter from ages when emperor walked and real badasses...
And one more thing, they are SM chapter 2000-3000 strong and the others have tons of successor chapters....Is this a flaw?Bigest there is...but at least we can argue about some interpretation of books ( who- won -where )while for the UM and the GK we can't....

"Bad writers" really depends. I don't know anything of Bill King, but I have heard of Abnett and ADB and they seem like cool people. They are not "bad writers" just because they might(!) write something that does not fit in with my own perception of the setting. We all have our own understanding of how things "should" be like, after all, and you can still deliver an objectively cool story even when it deviates from what you think would have happened.

Take the movie "300" for example. Arguably quite unrealistic, even defying what we know actually happened - but I still like it for what it is: a thrilling screen adaption of an ancient exaggerated legend.

I would have less of a problem with the Space Wolves if the setting would support them better, but as things are they stand apart as the "odd man out". Perhaps this is also where our opinions stem from, that my interpretation of the 41st millennium is somewhat more down-to-earth and dirty, whereas you embrace the epicness and the legendary stuff? The available fluff certainly allows for both approaches, and they are equally valid. Hence a lot of things really depend on one's focus, for this can really change how the things around it are perceived and set in relation.

As for the "likeminded kids" comment - with that I was actually aiming at the cliché of the "rebellious youth" you are surely familiar with. Since we don't forget childhood idols even as we grow older, it does not have to do with actual age (I'm almost as old as you and just as geeky!), but I would suspect that you've grown to like either the SW or something like them when you were younger? Or is it more the "preservation of principles" thing that you find fascinating, rather than the "anti-authorital stance" which I was referring to?

Well maybe because I like 30k better (Heresy books did their part ) which is more, like you said "legendary stuff" and 40k is "down-to-earth dirty"...
and ofc I have to be loyal to the chapter which I love from the start...

And if we talk about over the top fluff, just look at the BA...raging vampires with ghost at their back + don't get me started with some of the newer chapters...
Oooo and "preservation of principles" and standing up for the common man also abides why I love the SW...

P.S. I like that we can talk as adults and not putting this in hate department...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

 Lynata wrote:

They manage to beat back an entire Segmentum(!) worth of Guard and Navy, get away with pissing off just about every Imperial Adeptus in existence (including the Inquisition) without the repercussions that should logically follow (indeed the opposite is the case: factions they have slighted in the past suddenly turn around to help them if the Wolves ask), and generally win 99.9% of all fights they appear in, seemingly with few casualties. Their current Codex is a collection of the silliest feats, right up to boarding a 12.000 mile long space whale. Perhaps even more disturbing is how far they are removed from what you'd usually expect from Space Marines - these are not monastic warriors who have sacrificed a part of their humanity to become what they are, they're a gang of drunk bearded bikers in power armour with a rebellious streak to appeal to likeminded kids. And don't get me started on the "Wulfen Curse" being a flaw. It's not a flaw when people think it's cool to be a werewolf.
The sad part is that the core concept of the Space Wolves contains everything that would've been necessary to make them really cool. Space Vikings! How can you not dig that idea? Unfortunately, with the SW, the writers have simply overdone it. Too much "special snowflake", a little "too epic", trying to be too many things at once, with a track record that just reads a little too successful compared to anyone else..

Add to this that their recruitment base is smaller than almost any other Chapter, yet they are able to maintain 3-4x the amount of active battle-brothers, while apparently still being able to crew an absolutely enormous fleet. So either they are the least active Chapter on record (which is pretty bad), or they are just. that. good. (which is worse).

Of course, it doesn't help that the Horus Heresy novels portray them as extremely dogmatic, judgemental, and downright hypocritical, not to mention extremely rude (like the Azkhallon noted in Fear to Tread... they are like dogs meeting for the first time, snarling and barking to establish who is the alpha).

 Omegus wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

They manage to beat back an entire Segmentum(!) worth of Guard and Navy, get away with pissing off just about every Imperial Adeptus in existence (including the Inquisition) without the repercussions that should logically follow (indeed the opposite is the case: factions they have slighted in the past suddenly turn around to help them if the Wolves ask), and generally win 99.9% of all fights they appear in, seemingly with few casualties. Their current Codex is a collection of the silliest feats, right up to boarding a 12.000 mile long space whale. Perhaps even more disturbing is how far they are removed from what you'd usually expect from Space Marines - these are not monastic warriors who have sacrificed a part of their humanity to become what they are, they're a gang of drunk bearded bikers in power armour with a rebellious streak to appeal to likeminded kids. And don't get me started on the "Wulfen Curse" being a flaw. It's not a flaw when people think it's cool to be a werewolf.
The sad part is that the core concept of the Space Wolves contains everything that would've been necessary to make them really cool. Space Vikings! How can you not dig that idea? Unfortunately, with the SW, the writers have simply overdone it. Too much "special snowflake", a little "too epic", trying to be too many things at once, with a track record that just reads a little too successful compared to anyone else..

Add to this that their recruitment base is smaller than almost any other Chapter, yet they are able to maintain 3-4x the amount of active battle-brothers, while apparently still being able to crew an absolutely enormous fleet. So either they are the least active Chapter on record (which is pretty bad), or they are just. that. good. (which is worse).

Of course, it doesn't help that the Horus Heresy novels portray them as extremely dogmatic, judgemental, and downright hypocritical, not to mention extremely rude (like the Azkhallon noted in Fear to Tread... they are like dogs meeting for the first time, snarling and barking to establish who is the alpha).

But at least they are not a broken- arrogant -chaos worshiping - traitor warband like the TS

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Personally, I don't think that a lot of people are actually using "Mary Sue" because they think it refers to some sort of self-insertion, but simply because it has come to describe characters that have little to no real flaws but a whole lot of perks, and who somehow seem to come out on top of even the most hopeless situations - and in a way that makes it look as if they do this daily before breakfast. Depending on your perception of the setting and the faction in question, some of the fluff just seems to take things a liiittle too far from time to time. It is also a derogatory term used to express dislike born (at least partially) out of specifically such observations.

The_Solitaire wrote:Never heard anyone refer to Space Wolves as Mary Sues though...

I do. They're the one faction in 40k I use this term for.

They manage to beat back an entire Segmentum(!) worth of Guard and Navy, get away with pissing off just about every Imperial Adeptus in existence (including the Inquisition) without the repercussions that should logically follow (indeed the opposite is the case: factions they have slighted in the past suddenly turn around to help them if the Wolves ask), and generally win 99.9% of all fights they appear in, seemingly with few casualties. Their current Codex is a collection of the silliest feats, right up to boarding a 12.000 mile long space whale. Perhaps even more disturbing is how far they are removed from what you'd usually expect from Space Marines - these are not monastic warriors who have sacrificed a part of their humanity to become what they are, they're a gang of drunk bearded bikers in power armour with a rebellious streak to appeal to likeminded kids. And don't get me started on the "Wulfen Curse" being a flaw. It's not a flaw when people think it's cool to be a werewolf.
The sad part is that the core concept of the Space Wolves contains everything that would've been necessary to make them really cool. Space Vikings! How can you not dig that idea? Unfortunately, with the SW, the writers have simply overdone it. Too much "special snowflake", a little "too epic", trying to be too many things at once, with a track record that just reads a little too successful compared to anyone else.

nomotog wrote:I guess people think the GK, SW, Nids, Tau, ect are boring fractions.

Partially true. I do consider characters interesting only when they have flaws, but for the level of dislike I have for the Space Wolves, just being boring wouldn't be enough. I think that for me, this army's subjective level of ridiculousness feels a bit as if it'd basically drag the entire franchise down by acting as if the Imperium just doesn't care at all for such shenanigans. It'd be like having Superman in the movie 1984.

I quess Bill King,Abnett and ADB are bad writers then...well like Void_Dragon said,there are a few SW haters( read: TS fans ) on this site and they are all on my ignore button fortunately...
Well Lynata I do get your logic because it don't comes from rage,just pure logic (or what do you think is logic for 40k),so I do not agree with you,but I do get you...
And likeminded kids?I'm 30 year old computer engineer with tons of fantasy books in my head, and I worship them ! Why ? Because in grimdark there has to be someone who is still the same chapter from ages when emperor walked and real badasses...
And one more thing, they are SM chapter 2000-3000 strong and the others have tons of successor chapters....Is this a flaw?Bigest there is...but at least we can argue about some interpretation of books ( who- won -where )while for the UM and the GK we can't....

Abnett has written his fair share of crap ( i swear to Tzeentch, one of these days the Ghosts are going to invade the Eye of Terror ) and King's spacewolves books, although generaly quite amusing, have their lows.

 Lynata wrote:

Take the movie "300" for example. Arguably quite unrealistic, even defying what we know actually happened - but I still like it for what it is: a thrilling screen adaption of an ancient exaggerated legend.

In fact, it's a screen adaptation of a comic book based on an exaggerated legend. So it's THRICE ridiculous up-exaggeration.

As for the Space Wolves, they're only that awesome because they're Jervis Johnson's favoritest Chapter evar! Also, the only faction he considers to be "the good guys" in the entire setting.

 DarthMarko wrote:
But at least they are not a broken- arrogant -chaos worshiping - traitor warband like the TS

Absolutely, the Thousand Sons are barely a pale shadow of what they once were and Faust...er... Magnus is in some ways less active than even Lorgar.

I wouldn't say that, at least we can confidently say Magnus occasionally leaves the Warp, as seen in Battle for the Fang and the Space Wolf novels.

 DarthMarko wrote:
But at least they are not a broken- arrogant -chaos worshiping - traitor warband like the TS

Ah, so it starts.

Ironic that you imply bias and buttmad on the part of TS fans, when you were the one who went off topic by bringing the Thousand Sons into this.

Also, on the subject that the Space Wolves are Jervis Johnson's favoritest faction, that arguably increases their Sue credentials, rather than decreases it.

At least we can argue with the real facts( from the books) unlike UM who are real Mary Sue's without any dirt and really are portrayed as best of the bestest...
And I didn't see any big fight between other chapters with that much flame and passion as the TS fans and SW fans have...
+ argument from a TS fan to a SW is never impartial and always needs a reply...

The SW's have quite a few issues. On top of having some absolutely atrocious fluff (firing artillery by smell...then running up to watch the explosions...' ) where they can never do any wrong and never lose (they face millions of invading IG/IN forces and a few squads of long fangs annihilate tons of armored columns on their own? can you get any more blatant with plot armor?), they're confused and contradictory.

They're genetically engineered xenocidal super soldiers that take years if not decades to make ready for war as a full Astartes, but they can't decide if they want to be rowdy 12 year olds, salty sailors with hearts of gold, drunken pranksters, "dark" (in that...'my darkness is so deep and brooding' awkward way) executioners, superstitious shamans, bloody minded berzerkers, master spies and highly disciplined soldiers, mystic warriors, werewolves and everything in between.

Then of course they've also got naming conventions that read like the worst of internet fanfic.

The awkward redirect of "well TSONS suck!" doesn't hold as much weight in that light.

The Space Wolves have tons of potential to be cool. The problem is that they try too hard to be too many things and end up coming off reading like a 12 year old's over-excited after-school internet fanfic, or like some poor star trek nerd's basement-written fanscript or something.

 Omegus wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

They manage to beat back an entire Segmentum(!) worth of Guard and Navy, get away with pissing off just about every Imperial Adeptus in existence (including the Inquisition) without the repercussions that should logically follow (indeed the opposite is the case: factions they have slighted in the past suddenly turn around to help them if the Wolves ask), and generally win 99.9% of all fights they appear in, seemingly with few casualties. Their current Codex is a collection of the silliest feats, right up to boarding a 12.000 mile long space whale. Perhaps even more disturbing is how far they are removed from what you'd usually expect from Space Marines - these are not monastic warriors who have sacrificed a part of their humanity to become what they are, they're a gang of drunk bearded bikers in power armour with a rebellious streak to appeal to likeminded kids. And don't get me started on the "Wulfen Curse" being a flaw. It's not a flaw when people think it's cool to be a werewolf.
The sad part is that the core concept of the Space Wolves contains everything that would've been necessary to make them really cool. Space Vikings! How can you not dig that idea? Unfortunately, with the SW, the writers have simply overdone it. Too much "special snowflake", a little "too epic", trying to be too many things at once, with a track record that just reads a little too successful compared to anyone else..

Add to this that their recruitment base is smaller than almost any other Chapter, yet they are able to maintain 3-4x the amount of active battle-brothers, while apparently still being able to crew an absolutely enormous fleet. So either they are the least active Chapter on record (which is pretty bad), or they are just. that. good. (which is worse).

Of course, it doesn't help that the Horus Heresy novels portray them as extremely dogmatic, judgemental, and downright hypocritical, not to mention extremely rude (like the Azkhallon noted in Fear to Tread... they are like dogs meeting for the first time, snarling and barking to establish who is the alpha).

To each their own, I guess. I like the SW precisely because they go against the grain and have that old-fashioned sense of honour that can compel a man to do the right thing against the whole world's wishes and damn the consequences, and the SW feel like that all the damn time, and that definitely appeals to me. That, and the Vikings in space which the Wolves originally represented.

Having said that, I dislike the direction they've taken the Wolves in with their latest Codex, although a lot of the stories are good enough that they make me want to take an axe and start taking names for Russ and the Emperor!

With the current SW Codex, I both agree and disagree with Lynata - a lot of the blurbs in the SW timeline actually do have them suffering casualties, sometimes significant ones, as well as showing that their headstrong, stubborn nature can drag them into fights best avoided, so it's not quite as one-sided as that. Also, while *we* might consider it cool to be a werewolf, I'm pretty surethat the 41st Millennium Imperium,as a rule, does not.
On the other hand, boarding a 12,000 km space whale is stupid. Harpooning it might have been funny. Also the wolfy mcwolf wolfwolf namings. Don't get me started on the Wolf Riders. Suffice it to say, I've blacked out that page in my Codex and the entry in the army list. The worst part is: See? They're Vikings, because they have Thor and Loki as special characters! No, no,no, no,no.no.

The issue with their recruitment base has been addressed before - there may be fewer people living on Fenris, but its nature as a Deathworld means that a larger percentage of the population is fit to become a space marine. Also, the Wolves are far from the only Chapter who recruits from only a single world, or even a single deathworld. In fact, chapters that recruit from more are the exception, rather than the norm.

I actively loathe how the Wolves and Russ are portrayed in the HH books (but then, I have more issues with those books).

I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.