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This, and people seriously have an odd impression of what a Mary Sue is.
Being extremely powerful alone doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Being extremely powerful and having no flaws makes a character a Mary Sue (and subsequently pretty boring to read about, considering flaws generally MAKE a character).
Hopefully there is some fluff in the Chaos dex about Draigo's unending/hopeless quest within the Chaos wastes slowing breaking his indomitable will. Besides its obviously Tzneetch just wants him there, just as planned. If he is stuck in the Chaos wastes, he isn't preventing demon plans anywhere else.
Except, of course, he is able to leave the warp and help out his buddies "in the hour of their greatest need", so he's not even that constrained.
Well, its not like its at will... and honestly I think that is a gamey convention to let players actually use him
DarthMarko wrote: With Draigo, you don't get that sense since the possibility of him being defeated seems ludicrous. He's not trapped in the warp, at the whim of the gods; he's a school-yard bully, making his daily rounds of giving wedgies and taking their lunch money.
The irony of course is that nobody in that graphic novel is a Mary Sue. Not even the guy who is basically Godman.
Melissia wrote: Some forces of Chaos definitely qualify as Villain Sue. The Sons of Malice come to mind-- the lore reads like some whiny six year old's attempt to write "omg the bets cahpter evar!". .
You know, I've never read anything hinting that about the Sons of Malice. Could you send over a few links or something? I personally am a fan of the Sons of Malice but never got that impression from any of the little fluff I've found on them.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
"Oh, we're attacked by an army made of Celestians, the Sisters equivalent to fething STERNGUARD, defeat them easily with no real casualties, and then kill the inquisitor in a blood sacrifice, and everything is all hunky dory!"
Yeah, no. They're probably the crappiest army lore that's come out of official studio material.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/30 04:21:45
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Lynata wrote: The sad part is that the core concept of the Space Wolves contains everything that would've been necessary to make them really cool. Space Vikings! How can you not dig that idea? Unfortunately, with the SW, the writers have simply overdone it. Too much "special snowflake", a little "too epic", trying to be too many things at once, with a track record that just reads a little too successful compared to anyone else.
Honestly, the Orks have more in common with vikings than the Space Wolves do: Traveling across the galaxy raiding, pillaging and crushing the weak under foot and taking whatever they want.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
Melissia wrote: "Oh, we're attacked by an army made of Celestians, the Sisters equivalent to fething STERNGUARD, defeat them easily with no real casualties, and then kill the inquisitor in a blood sacrifice, and everything is all hunky dory!"
Yeah, no. They're probably the crappiest army lore that's come out of official studio material.
Oh yeah, I guess there's a reason my memory omitted that part of their fluff. So I should say that other than that disasterpiece, I really like them.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
Melissia wrote: Tyranids can be this as well-- "oh they'll just adapt to that, they'll adapt to that, they'll adapt to everything and they're unbeatable by anyone anywhere, and even fi they are beaten by some plot armor or other, there's always more of them they're infinite and they'll never end".
One of our local players insists that all Tyranids shoul be immune to poison, have army wide invulnerable saves and FNP, because that's what the fluff says.
Mary sue does not ONLY mean self-insert. That's just worthless pedantry by people who don't understand the meaning and origin of the term.
It's a very specific term that refers to wish-fulfillment on the part of the author. This doesn't always mean a self-insert, but it often does. It's not a catch-all phrase for all poorly written or one dimensional characters, and not even a catch-all for over-powered characters. There's already a term for those characters: over powered.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
Melissia wrote: "Oh, we're attacked by an army made of Celestians, the Sisters equivalent to fething STERNGUARD, defeat them easily with no real casualties, and then kill the inquisitor in a blood sacrifice, and everything is all hunky dory!"
Yeah, no. They're probably the crappiest army lore that's come out of official studio material.
A whole company of Marines defeating a single strikeforce of Celestians in close-combat isn't hard to believe at all. Marines > Sisters of Battle.
Lynata wrote:The sad part is that the core concept of the Space Wolves contains everything that would've been necessary to make them really cool. Space Vikings! How can you not dig that idea? Unfortunately, with the SW, the writers have simply overdone it. Too much "special snowflake", a little "too epic", trying to be too many things at once, with a track record that just reads a little too successful compared to anyone else.
Have you actually read the SW codex? If you go through the timeline section there are several examples of the flaws of the SW. Entire companies lost because they laid down their guard because of drink. In their arrogance they broke a long standing treaty with eldar which lead to a three way war with Eldar, SW, and Orks. The idea that hundreds of prospects die to the Canis Helix. They have an entire company dedicated to the fallen and lost. The Wulfin curse is actually described as a curse, not a power buff like it comes across on the table top.
Yeah they have their moments in the sun, but who wants to play an army full of also rans, so of course their deeds are somewhat glorified in their own codex.
As for not being viking like, I don't see that at all. They hold to tradition, brotherhood, and admiration of their heros. They hold strong to superstitions. Sure they don't plunder anymore, but they do fight like raiders. You strike hard, fast, and with such brutality that the mere thought of resistance is unpalitiable. You then take what you want and you then leave so that the people can get back to their lives. Notice how SW are never asked to engage in wars of attrition or prolonged engagements. Its not what they do, they fight with the ideas of shock and awe. Just like the vikings did.
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:
This isn't relevant at all, but it is one of the most legitimately hilarious things about the chapter, up there with "wet-leopard growl".
"There are no wolves on Fenris" indeed.
But the Space Wolves fighting with the ideas of shock and awe doesn't support viking credentials, frankly. Since, that is sort of what Space Marines in general do.
Viking were raiders and traders, not conquerors like the Romans. There was no reason to pacify the local populous. You just had to make it so that they wouldn't be willing to fight back while you did your business and then left.
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:
Melissia wrote: "Oh, we're attacked by an army made of Celestians, the Sisters equivalent to fething STERNGUARD, defeat them easily with no real casualties, and then kill the inquisitor in a blood sacrifice, and everything is all hunky dory!"
Yeah, no. They're probably the crappiest army lore that's come out of official studio material.
A whole company of Marines defeating a single strikeforce of Celestians in close-combat isn't hard to believe at all. Marines > Sisters of Battle.
I didn't say close combat.
Also, Sisters of Battle can and do defeat Marines. In fact, that's what the very first artwork of Sisters depicted them doing-- killing Space Marines. They have also destroyed entire chapters at the behest of the Inquisition, IIRC.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/30 05:32:41
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
They landed right in the middle of their little cannibal ritual. Do you believe that the Sons of Malice backed up a few dozen or more meters to fight them
Also, Sisters of Battle can and do defeat Marines. In fact, that's what the very first artwork of Sisters depicted them doing-- killing Space Marines. They have also destroyed entire chapters at the behest of the Inquisition, IIRC.
Why did you pull "Sisters can never defeat Marines" out of "Marines are better than Sisters"?
That they can defeat Marines in combat is irrelevant to the fact that in general, a Marine is in fact superior to a Sister of Battle, and with even numbers, the Marines would in most cases win, especially if they happened to be surrounded and in close combat with the seven foot tall supermen. Why the hell shouldn't an entire Company of Marines beat a single strike force of Celestians, while surrounding them and in close combat?
Void__Dragon wrote:A whole company of Marines defeating a single strikeforce of Celestians in close-combat isn't hard to believe at all. Marines > Sisters of Battle.
To be fair, those units are specialised in putting down rogue Marine Chapters.
Still, personally I have no problem with the story. Such engagements are surely not an "auto-win" for the Sisters but sound like highly dangerous deployments - not only do they "just" go and confront a bunch of Space Marines; no, they attempt to actually strike them in their lair, fight them on their own ground and soil in an attempt to cut out a Chapter's heart by killing its leader and seizing its geneseed storage. A good reason for why they select only their best warriors for such missions, and utilise equipment otherwise left in the armoury.
With the fluff on this incident being as limited as it is, we know nothing about what actually went wrong. Maybe somebody *coughinquisitorcough* miscalculated and underestimated the Sons' resistance. Maybe Pietas wasn't able to gather a large enough force in time (many Minor Orders, the premier contacts for Inquisitors, aren't very large). Maybe it was bad luck or bad intel that they deep-striked right in the midst of the Sons' "Chapter rites" - which I think means that almost the entire Chapter was assembled - rather than hitting them at a time where the other Companies would be busy elsewhere.
Happens. *shrug*
Jayden63 wrote:Have you actually read the SW codex?
Yep. And I just can't agree with your assessment. Maybe we're using different "goggles" when we read the material.
And I think it's pretty much a given that every SW fan thinks the Curse is "cool", in a way that negates its application as an actual narrative flaw. Maybe if we'd have more stories about the Space Wolves losing great heroes to it (like Tycho of the Blood Angels), or how they'd lose critical battles or attack their own allies due to uncontrollable ferocity (like the Flesh Tearers), or how other Imperial forces would regard them with disgust (like the Marines Malevolent), then my personal judgment might be different. Instead we get to read about how oh-so-powerful they are, or how they piss off Imperial authorities left and right and think that's funny. Meh. Personal preferences, I guess.
Jayden63 wrote:Notice how SW are never asked to engage in wars of attrition or prolonged engagements. Its not what they do, they fight with the ideas of shock and awe. Just like the vikings did.
That's not a Space Wolf trait, this is Space Marine standard battle doctrine. All Astartes are high mobility shock troops in GW's fluff, regardless of some fans re-interpreting them into simply being supersoldiers that are just better at everything and conquering entire planets with a couple Tactical squads.
Void__Dragon wrote: Why did you pull "Sisters can never defeat Marines" out of "Marines are better than Sisters"?
Because that's a common argument that marine fanboys try to make.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Jayden63 wrote: Viking were raiders and traders, not conquerors like the Romans. There was no reason to pacify the local populous. You just had to make it so that they wouldn't be willing to fight back while you did your business and then left.
Not true. Vikings, at the peak of their powers, oversaw a very large (though fragmented) Empire.
Jayden63 wrote:Have you actually read the SW codex?
Yep. And I just can't agree with your assessment. Maybe we're using different "goggles" when we read the material.
And I think it's pretty much a given that every SW fan thinks the Curse is "cool", in a way that negates its application as an actual narrative flaw. Maybe if we'd have more stories about the Space Wolves losing great heroes to it (like Tycho of the Blood Angels), or how they'd lose critical battles or attack their own allies due to uncontrollable ferocity (like the Flesh Tearers), or how other Imperial forces would regard them with disgust (like the Marines Malevolent), then my personal judgment might be different. Instead we get to read about how oh-so-powerful they are, or how they piss off Imperial authorities left and right and think that's funny. Meh. Personal preferences, I guess.
Jayden63 wrote:Notice how SW are never asked to engage in wars of attrition or prolonged engagements. Its not what they do, they fight with the ideas of shock and awe. Just like the vikings did.
That's not a Space Wolf trait, this is Space Marine standard battle doctrine. All Astartes are high mobility shock troops in GW's fluff, regardless of some fans re-interpreting them into simply being supersoldiers that are just better at everything and conquering entire planets with a couple Tactical squads.
Aye on that particular topic. I do run MotW on the tabletop, because, why not use it when good? But I know it is a curse, and I like to think that fluffwise, those are akin to beserkr (I think that was what they wanted to portray without using the word "berserker" to avoid confusion with the khornate ones, obviously backfiring in the end), and that while they're beasts in the battlefield, few to none makes it out alive there.
I liked how one lad at Prospero Burns, when sensing he was falling under the beast's control, jumped on a suicide charge because he knew he was already lost.
Honestly for how ridiculously Mary sue-ish Draigo was written in the fluff, he would get his ass whipped, baked, and served on a silver platter against most servants of khorne (DP, Herald, skulltaker, Flesh hounds, Bloodthirster). Which i kinda think is really funny. For how many daemons he has killed in the fluff, he just is a unjustifiable mary sue. Sure i can write things like "OMG this bloodletter killed millions and billions of grey knights and then, he killed millions more." but it's not going to make him any better on the battlefield.
In short, Draigo is a Mary Sue. There's no debating. But when it comes to actually playing him, I'm not going to be scared.
P.S. In case none of you noticed, I'm a heavily biased daemons player.
Sure i can write things like "OMG this bloodletter killed millions and billions of grey knights and then, he killed millions more." but it's not going to make him any better on the battlefield.
Skulltaker? Wonder how many he's killed between his stint as apart of fantasy and 40k.
I still think Grey Knights are the best trick that the forces of chaos ever pulled on the IoM. The GK will slaughter millions of innocents just in the name of creating their weapons. They will then turn on their helpful and loyal allies to "save" them from corruption... and if anyone is successful against daemons, the big I or the GK interrogate them and often kill them, suspicious of their success.
If they play it right, the forces of Chaos could probably get the GK to kill more pure souls and loyal IoM forces (and the occasion planet) than any "chaos" force ever. Somewhere, Tzeetch, Omegon, and Erebus are chuckling.
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+ Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2 One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners
Lobukia wrote: I still think Grey Knights are the best trick that the forces of chaos ever pulled on the IoM. The GK will slaughter millions of innocents just in the name of creating their weapons. They will then turn on their helpful and loyal allies to "save" them from corruption... and if anyone is successful against daemons, the big I or the GK interrogate them and often kill them, suspicious of their success.
If they play it right, the forces of Chaos could probably get the GK to kill more pure souls and loyal IoM forces (and the occasion planet) than any "chaos" force ever. Somewhere, Tzeetch, Omegon, and Erebus are chuckling.
That would be the Fifth Lord of Chaos... the God of Subtlety.
"If you really want to know what it was like, to fight in the air in the great War, then go up to someone you have never met and who has never done you the slightest harm and pour a two-gallon tin of petrol over them. Then apply a match, and when they are nicely ablaze, push them from a fifteenth-floor window after first perhaps shooting them a few times in the back with a revolver. And be aware as you are doing these things that ten seconds later someone else will quite probably do them to you. This will exactly reproduce... the substance of First World War aerial combat and will cost your country nothing. It will also avoid the necessity of ten million other people to die in order for you to enjoy it."
In short, Draigo is a Mary Sue. There's no debating. But when it comes to actually playing him, I'm not going to be scared.
But that is what we've been debating.
In game, what's probably going to happen, as long as your daemons have BotBG, is you'll just tarpit him for several rounds as you are taking 2+ saves against his force sword, and he's likely taking 2+/3++ saves against your attacks as well. Just make sure you don't fail a leadership test if he manages to get a wound through, heh.
Even if you consider it boring, the Imperium is neither invincible nor heroic
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
In short, Draigo is a Mary Sue. There's no debating. But when it comes to actually playing him, I'm not going to be scared.
But that is what we've been debating.
In game, what's probably going to happen, as long as your daemons have BotBG, is you'll just tarpit him for several rounds as you are taking 2+ saves against his force sword, and he's likely taking 2+/3++ saves against your attacks as well. Just make sure you don't fail a leadership test if he manages to get a wound through, heh.
Well Let's look at a points equivalent fight between Draigo (HQ-275) and a Bloodthirster (HQ-275 Botbg + Unholy Might for the fun of it) and then look at the results. It's not looking too good for Draigo. He has 4 attacks will hit on a 4 and wound on a 2, with re-rolls of 1. So after the re-rolls and everything that's about a little under 2 wounds. With a 2+ invuln you are only left with .3333 wounds. Bloodthirster has 5 base attacks and hits on a 3 and wounds on a 2. So that's about a little under 3 wounds. With a 3+ invuln Draigo will be taking a wound per round of combat, where as the bloodthirster would only take a wound per 3 rounds of combat. Sure they would be tied up for a while, but I'm calling draigo losing that combat every time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/04 17:37:58
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Some Throne-Forsaken Battlefield on the other side of the Galaxy
The Imperium is GW's favorite. That breeds resentment among players of other armies.
Also, by definition, you really can't say the Space Marines are Mary Sues or Gary Stus or what have you. Mary Sues are, by definition, Author Avatars, with a truly unrealistic backstory, skill set, etc- relative to the setting, not to real life. Sadly, the definition of Mary Sue has been twisted to the point of it meaning any character who wins too much.
289th Descaal Janissaries: around 2kpts
(no games played so far)
Imperial Fists 4th company (Work In Progress)
Warhost of Biel-Tan (Coming Soon!)
scarletsquig wrote: The high prices also make the game more cinematic, just like going to the cinema!
Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 
Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 
Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 
Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 
Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 
Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 
Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 
Crimson Tide 59-4-0 
Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 
Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 
BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 
IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 
RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 
Imperial Fists 4th company (Work In Progress)
Warhost of Biel-Tan (Coming Soon!)