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 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

Wait...

Would that make Draigo the 40K equivalent of someone who plays FPS' online all day and does nothing but brag about their e-peen game points?

Funny how people are arguing about SW when the real enemy of the story is best of the bestest and boring as hell Wardish UM (Calgar killing avatar of Kaine??You are ok with that Void_Dragon)...And GK Kaldor Draigo??I think OP had them in mind also you know...
and btw Angelic Vampires with ghost following them,raging and obeying codex in the same time -that's OK...


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 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

it's not that - Carving Mortarion is what bugs me...

All the 5E marine fluff in general was pretty atrocious, SW's just have a special little place in there for being so confused and goofy, the other factions at least knew what they were after in their ridiculousness. But yes, the terrible fluff isn't just isolated to the SW's by any means, they're just a really good example of it.

Not everyone is convinced that the Ultramarines actually qualify for this position. I for one happen to see actual flaws in their codex-adherence and their exemplary loyalty towards the Imperium (which I think are the reasons others think they are boring, ironically). Plus, they lack weird special rules (and indeed are the "template" for Vanilla Marines) and have a comparatively tame fluff, from what I remember reading.

I've also not taken that offhand interview comment by Ward about "spiritual lieges" and blown it out of proportions, mind you.

Vaktathi has it right, though. It feels as if the fluff is getting worse and worse, and it's not just limited to one army. It feels as if the studio is trying to scale up the epic, wants to make everything more legendary ... but the axiom "when everything is epic, nothing is" holds true, and some of the ideas they've come up with are just lame.

 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

If he is meaningless, then why include him at all?

Platuan4th wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

Wait...

Would that make Draigo the 40K equivalent of someone who plays FPS' online all day and does nothing but brag about their e-peen game points?

Exactly. I was going to say something a long those lines, but I'm glad someone else saw the comparison. +1 for you.

DarthMarko wrote:Funny how people are arguing about SW when the real enemy of the story is best of the bestest and boring as hell Wardish UM (Calgar killing avatar of Kaine??You are ok with that Void_Dragon)...And GK Kaldor Draigo??I think OP had them in mind also you know...
and btw Angelic Vampires with ghost following them,raging and obeying codex in the same time -that's OK...


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 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

it's not that - Carving Mortarion is what bugs me...

Meh, it may be OTT, but its not "Mary Suish". You have two of the best of the best Space Marines who have decades or centuries of experience, have access to the best available Imperial equipment, are nearly unmatched psykers, and are specially trained to defeat daemons against one daemon Primarch who doesn't have a well established level of strength or martial prowess.

It's sort of a rock paper scissors scenario Draigo > Mortarion > some uber baddass that isn't a daemon > Draigo.



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nomotog wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

If he is meaningless, then why include him at all?

He is not meaningless, his victories are. He is meant to be a tragic hero figure.

The problem with Draigo is that the overwhelming "Draigo Smash" completely overshadows any notion of tragedy in his story for most people, and the tone it's written in does not convey that message at all, it sounds like he's more on an eternal crusade of ever-smashing than anything else.

What is "Mary Sues"?

 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

It takes time for a Daemon to be ready to manifest once more after being owned.

Draigo has owned more Daemons than any other GK as far as we can tell, since he spends near 24/7 fighting them.

And you're grasping onto one excerpt, the whole "eventually the Chaos Gods lairs are recreated" (It sure as hell wasn't instant like you claim it was) thing, and ignoring the rest which is all praising Draigo and all awesome he is and the awesome things he does.

Stop trying to justify bad writing. He is not a good representation of a Sisyphean struggle.

 Amaya wrote:

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nomotog wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

If he is meaningless, then why include him at all?

He is not meaningless, his victories are. He is meant to be a tragic hero figure.

Indeed. Anyone that hates Draigo needs to steer clear of actual, non-Hollywoodized Hercules myth. Almost every single flaw he has and problem in his life can be attributed to his father's wife hating him and trying to make his life miserable. When he's on his A-game, Draigo just doesn't hold a candle.

The point I'm trying to make: Draigo's fluff is nothing but Greek Heroic Tragedy told through a Sci-Fi medium by someone who isn't that good a story teller.

A tragic hero, Really?

Bad writing doesn't automatically make something a Mary Sue.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

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nomotog wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

If he is meaningless, then why include him at all?

He is not meaningless, his victories are. He is meant to be a tragic hero figure.

Indeed. Anyone that hates Draigo needs to steer clear of actual, non-Hollywoodized Hercules myth. Almost every single flaw he has and problem in his life can be attributed to his father's wife hating him and trying to make his life miserable. When he's on his A-game, Draigo just doesn't hold a candle.

The point I'm trying to make: Draigo's fluff is nothing but Greek Heroic Tragedy told through a Sci-Fi medium by someone who isn't that good a story teller.

Heh...funny thing, I also hate Superman and Hercules.
They bore me. Sure superman is the last of his kind and is effectively alone which would be a flaw...but he's nigh indestructible, ridiculously noble, and is pretty much well liked by everyone (except villains). That ruins it for me. I prefer heroes who are cursed (like Hellboy), alienated (like Deadpool) or mortal (like batman).

 Amaya wrote:
Bad writing doesn't automatically make something a Mary Sue.

The two are closely linked though.

Nope. You can have well written Mary Sues.

Edit: I wouldn't advise trying to do so as a writer unless you're really bloody good, but a lot of it depends on the world setting of the story and how strict your definition of Mary Sue is.

 Amaya wrote:
Nope. You can have well written Mary Sues.

Edit: I wouldn't advise trying to do so as a writer unless you're really bloody good, but a lot of it depends on the world setting of the story and how strict your definition of Mary Sue is.

Draigo isn't really a Mary Sue as a character, because he doesn't really have a character at all. He doesn't have a personality that can be described beyond "badass", he's just a one-man Chaos romp-machine. Which is a rather different sort of Sue, if you adhere to TV Tropes definition he would be a God Mode Sue.

At least we can argue with the real facts( from the books) unlike UM who are real Mary Sue's without any dirt and really are portrayed as best of the bestest...

The First Company was entirely eaten, and generally they suffered massive wounds in the face of the Tyranids.

I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

I don't mind people complaining about this, but I wish they would get their facts straight, he destroyed a gate of Tzeentch (Basically using holocaust and bringing it down on the head of a Lord of Change), and burned a patch of land in Nurgle's Garden. He didn't destroy the entirety of Tzeentch's & Nurgles lair!

 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

Tragic, futile battle is actually something not uncommon in 'Mary Sue' characters.

I'm hesitant declaring any Space Marine characters "Mary Sues" as not much is actually known about them, other than sparse details. As many have said, the term tends to be overused. Codeci are supposed to present the armies and associated characters in favourable light. However, Draigo is perhaps closest to "Mary Sue" character as he is both supposedly tragic, yet seems easily beat even the most powerful opponents.

 Lynata wrote:

Vaktathi has it right, though. It feels as if the fluff is getting worse and worse, and it's not just limited to one army. It feels as if the studio is trying to scale up the epic, wants to make everything more legendary ... but the axiom "when everything is epic, nothing is" holds true, and some of the ideas they've come up with are just lame.

I never stop wondering these "fluff is getting worse" comments. Sure there is bad fluff here and there and some present writers aren't that good, but it's not like it was any different in the past. Every time I read older, 3rd edition or so Codeci, I am just disgusted how badly written most of the fluff is, it is plain embarrassing at the times.

Someone mentioned that Mary Sue characters can be well written. Indeed, many successful writers have main characters who are clearly Mary Sues: Tom Clancy (Jack Ryan), Stephanie Mayer (Bella) etcetera. Ok, maybe they're not examples of being good writers, despite their success. But I will give out another example: Conan the Barbarian. Obviously, in many ways he was a 'wish-fullment' character with many Mary Sue traits. However, Howard had a sense to write him with not so much flaws, but limitations. For example, Conan knew crap all about magic, and usually when he encountered magic he was either pretty powerless, or had to work his way out using his own strengths and wits. Because he was clearly defined character, he was nevertheless interesting. If he had blasted lightning bolts at Thoth-Amon in addition to everything else, then it would have been lame.

Conan is a really good example actually, kudos.

 FinalAnswer wrote:


Tau are nothing like Mary Sues.

Tau are not Mary Sue, but they are projection of all the scifi-cliches usually attached to humans. They are an upstart race who preach their naive ideology to everyone while knowing nothing about dark secrets of the Galaxy. Hmm, sound familiar? That's why many people find them annoying, without even realizing why.

Attaching all those attributes on a "side faction" alien race, thus turning the cliches upside down, was stroke of genius - if it was intentional.

I'm surprised why nobody has mentioned Blood Angels. See, when I read the old, and much reviled PDF codex, it actually made me interested about playing them. It portrayed one of the most iconic Marine Chapters as a shadow of their former glory, slowly dying out from losses and genetic flaws. The fact that it was a White Dwarf supplement codex just added to mystique - they have fallen so low that they don't even get a proper book anymore! Then came the 5th edition codex, and my interest just died. Sure, the book paid lip service to already estabilished fluff about a "dying" chapter. But it didn't show anywhere. In fact, by reading the codex, one gets an unmistakeable impression that they are doing great. Their Chapter Master is perhaps the most famous warrior alive in the Imperium. In addition to Librarian equivalent to Greater Daemon, they also have a mystical protector who drops out from nowhere to help them out if they're losing. They have tons of all kinds of toys and units which other Chapters don't get at all, or have inferior versions of. They have insane number of Land Raiders, to the point that they can afford to waste them on extremely hazardous Deep Strikes - even though it's explicitly mentioned that the Chapter is not on good terms with Mechanicum. Instead of an interesting story of formerly great Chapter now forced to play an underdog, we get just another unbeatable Cheese Legion. Yawn.

Backfire wrote:I never stop wondering these "fluff is getting worse" comments. Sure there is bad fluff here and there and some present writers aren't that good, but it's not like it was any different in the past. Every time I read older, 3rd edition or so Codeci, I am just disgusted how badly written most of the fluff is, it is plain embarrassing at the times.

Really? I think it was not as "bad" back then. You had the occasional weird stuff (like the whole Plague of Unbelief bit about the SW which has been around ever since 2nd Edition), but on the other hand you also had instances where you stopped to consider how "mortal" those badass heroes actually are, in spite of all the luck they seem to have.

Maybe it's just a matter of perception; as time passes, more fluff gets made, which also means the bad stuff just keeps piling up. *shrug*

 Amaya wrote:
Nope. You can have well written Mary Sues.

Edit: I wouldn't advise trying to do so as a writer unless you're really bloody good, but a lot of it depends on the world setting of the story and how strict your definition of Mary Sue is.

My definition includes them being a bad writing. You can't have a well done mary sue because then it's not a mary sue.

nomotog wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
Nope. You can have well written Mary Sues.

Edit: I wouldn't advise trying to do so as a writer unless you're really bloody good, but a lot of it depends on the world setting of the story and how strict your definition of Mary Sue is.

My definition includes them being a bad writing. You can't have a well done mary sue because then it's not a mary sue.

Definitions don't work that way though.

 DarthMarko wrote:
At least we can argue with the real facts( from the books) unlike UM who are real Mary Sue's without any dirt and really are portrayed as best of the bestest...
And I didn't see any big fight between other chapters with that much flame and passion as the TS fans and SW fans have...
+ argument from a TS fan to a SW is never impartial and always needs a reply...

You are seriously projecting.


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 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

Except the scale of these feats is so over-the-top, that any tragic elements are lost. Instead of seeming as pointless victories, they become a testament to Draigo's ability to overcome an endless stream of the worst Chaos can throw at him. The tragedy of the Grey Knights is that they fight a valiant, yet ultimately futile battle against Chaos. No matter what sacrifices they make, or how many battles the win, they will inevitably lose the war. With Draigo, you don't get that sense since the possibility of him being defeated seems ludicrous. He's not trapped in the warp, at the whim of the gods; he's a school-yard bully, making his daily rounds of giving wedgies and taking their lunch money.

Omegus wrote:he's a school-yard bully, making his daily rounds of giving wedgies and taking their lunch money.

Oh boy. Images in my head. Sometimes I really love this forum.

The Sisyphean tragedy was lost by the explicit statement that Draigo is above and beyond the will of the Chaos Gods.

It's not that they choose not to be rid of him, Chaos can't be rid of him.

 helium42 wrote:
What is "Mary Sues"?

Here is an excellent discussion of the term that will be far, far less biased than anything you read on this forum:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

 Amaya wrote:
I'm still amazed at the fact people don't understand that Draigo's "victories" in the Warp mean nothing because he can not damage the Chaos Gods and they just instantly recreate their lairs. All he can do is wander around and rack up meaningless kills that contribute nothing to the war against Chaos.

This, and people seriously have an odd impression of what a Mary Sue is.

Being extremely powerful alone doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Being extremely powerful and having no flaws makes a character a Mary Sue (and subsequently pretty boring to read about, considering flaws generally MAKE a character).

Hopefully there is some fluff in the Chaos dex about Draigo's unending/hopeless quest within the Chaos wastes slowing breaking his indomitable will. Besides its obviously Tzneetch just wants him there, just as planned. If he is stuck in the Chaos wastes, he isn't preventing demon plans anywhere else.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Funny how people are arguing about SW when the real enemy of the story is best of the bestest and boring as hell Wardish UM (Calgar killing avatar of Kaine??You are ok with that Void_Dragon)

You understand that A) he was with dozens of terminators fighting Kaine B) all the heavy support they had shooting it C) the gantlets of Ultramar allowed him to do it.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:


This, and people seriously have an odd impression of what a Mary Sue is.

Being extremely powerful alone doesn't make a character a Mary Sue. Being extremely powerful and having no flaws makes a character a Mary Sue (and subsequently pretty boring to read about, considering flaws generally MAKE a character).

Hopefully there is some fluff in the Chaos dex about Draigo's unending/hopeless quest within the Chaos wastes slowing breaking his indomitable will. Besides its obviously Tzneetch just wants him there, just as planned. If he is stuck in the Chaos wastes, he isn't preventing demon plans anywhere else.

Except, of course, he is able to leave the warp and help out his buddies "in the hour of their greatest need", so he's not even that constrained.