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Can Terminators be held passed the 50% limit, because under terminator armor says they can always be held in reserve. If they cant can you please explain why they cant.

Can =/= must. So no.

They CAN be held in researves IF they are DEEP STRIKING. Even if the rules do not allow for Deep Striking OR Researves. But they CAN be placed on the board and deployed regularly. So to answere your question YES they still count as the number of units you must deploy.

ok kool thats what I thought i was just making sure. thanks.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Can =/= must. So no.

Incorrect. They MAY always go in reserves to DS, and preventing them would break this rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Can =/= must. So no.

Incorrect. They MAY always go in reserves to DS, and preventing them would break this rule.

(Can is not equal to Must). This is true. They "may" go in reserves or may start on the board, so they do count.

Yes they may always go into reserves to DS but that doesn't override the limit on 50%. Only units that must begin in reserve don't count. Where does it say they must be in reserve?
Can you deploy them normally? Yes. Do they have an option to be in reserve? Yes.
Choice =/= mandatory reserves.

The rules read to me that they always have the option even when a mission doesn't allow DS.

Yup, they have the option, not a requirement to do so. So you can always choose to keep them in Reserve, but would still have to observe the limits imposed by the Reserve rules on how many units can be Reserved.

Nothing in the DS rules say that it overrides the reserves limits. By that logic anything that can DS could ignore the Reserves limits and there would be no need to include that units that must DS are ignored.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Nothing in the DS rules say that it overrides the reserves limits. By that logic anything that can DS could ignore the Reserves limits and there would be no need to include that units that must DS are ignored.

What about the part that says "they may always start the game in reserve and arrive using deep strike rules, even if it is not a part of the mission being played". Granted if your army was half terminators and half other stuff the other stuff couldn't do it, but I think the rule is clear enough to allow an all terminator army to fully reserve and deep strike.

However an all Terminator army would automatically lose by that reasoning, as at the end of Game Turn 1 you would have nothing on the table.

Of course I don't know of any way to give Troops Terminator armour.

The key is the mission being played. It says even if the rules of the mission does not allow reserves or deep strike you can deepstrike terminators. That is the only thing "always allowed to DS" refers to. It is right in the very rule you quoted!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
However an all Terminator army would automatically lose by that reasoning, as at the end of Game Turn 1 you would have nothing on the table.

Of course I don't know of any way to give Troops Terminator armour.

With a Master of the Deathwing Dark Angels Terminators can be brought as troops.

GK terminators are troops, deathwing can, not sure about space wolves, maybe with Logan?

There are ways to bring in reserves turn 1, I believe death wing assault can, and wolves can take pods.

Kevlar wrote:
GK terminators are troops, deathwing can, not sure about space wolves, maybe with Logan?

There are ways to bring in reserves turn 1, I believe death wing assault can, and wolves can take pods.

Yep Logan can have terminators as troops but space wolves terminators can only walk on or take a transport.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
GK terminators are troops, deathwing can, not sure about space wolves, maybe with Logan?

There are ways to bring in reserves turn 1, I believe death wing assault can, and wolves can take pods.

Yep Logan can have terminators as troops but space wolves terminators can only walk on or take a transport.

Wolf Guard can take a Drop Pod.

A drop pod is a transport....

Kevlar wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Nothing in the DS rules say that it overrides the reserves limits. By that logic anything that can DS could ignore the Reserves limits and there would be no need to include that units that must DS are ignored.

What about the part that says "they may always start the game in reserve and arrive using deep strike rules, even if it is not a part of the mission being played". Granted if your army was half terminators and half other stuff the other stuff couldn't do it, but I think the rule is clear enough to allow an all terminator army to fully reserve and deep strike.

No it isn't. It still only says they may do it, which is a choice, not a requirement.

The "may always" part is a left over from 4th edition and custom missions that did not allow any deep strikes. IF you were to play a similar mission, you still can deep strike, ignoring the restriction.

It has nothing to do with ignoring reserve restrictions.

As above.

Its in the event of a mission disallowing Deep Striking it still allows terminators to Deep Strike.

Kevlar wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Nothing in the DS rules say that it overrides the reserves limits. By that logic anything that can DS could ignore the Reserves limits and there would be no need to include that units that must DS are ignored.

What about the part that says "they may always start the game in reserve and arrive using deep strike rules, even if it is not a part of the mission being played". Granted if your army was half terminators and half other stuff the other stuff couldn't do it, but I think the rule is clear enough to allow an all terminator army to fully reserve and deep strike.

This.

Note how the part about mission is "even if"? That means this allowance still works even if the mission does not allow it. This does not mean that the allowance is ONLY to DS when a mission does notr allow it.

Lobukia wrote:The "may always" part is a left over from 4th edition and custom missions that did not allow any deep strikes. IF you were to play a similar mission, you still can deep strike, ignoring the restriction.

It has nothing to do with ignoring reserve restrictions.

Incorrect, this was to always allow you to DS even if only certain units could DS, as existed in certain 4th edition WD missions.

Two things are true with terminators:
1) They may ALWAYS Deepstrike. You cannot prevent them from DS *ever*
2) They still count towards the 50% limit, and can thus prevent *other* units from being able to be put into reserve

So you can have Belial + 6 DW termi units, and ALL 6 units INCLUDING Belial "may always" start in reserve. However if you had 3 landspeeders *none* of the landspeeders may start in reserve with them, because 50% of your units (10 units, so 5) must start on the board.

Your two truths are inconsistent with the wider rules. In your world a 100% terminator army that auto-fails on turn one can be built, this not only breaks but pisses on the 50% rule.

So now we have 3 types of unit by your reading.
1) Those that must start in reserve.
2) Those that may always start in reserve.
3) Those that may start in reserve.


Only two of these are mentioned in a rulebook that is aware of the existence of four codices that contain terminator squads. I don't think you have done enough to justify type two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other hand, since for 3 of the codices you can have a maximum of 5 terminator units then it us unlikely there will be competitive lists out there using this build.

Yes, it can be built. I didnt say it was a good idea now, did I?

"May always start the game in reserve" is an ABSOLUTE statement, and as specific beats general overrides the rule stating only 50% may start in reserve. You cannot contest this. The existence of the rule is enough to justify type 2. Type 2 also makes no reference towards not counting towards the 50% limit, so they still do so - they just get to ignore it as far as THEY are concerned

Loganwing can have 6 units, Deathwing can have 6, GK can have 6.....

Small gedanken for you: 3 units of Deathwing terminators, with belial. Nothing else in the army

That is 4 units, all in terminator armour.

The 50% rule requires 2 to start on the table. So two units are in reserve - belial and his upgraded squad, for example

You now put the third unit into reserve - why? Because your rule says you may *always* start in reserve.

You now put the 4th unit into reserve - why? Becauswe your rule says you may *always* start in reserve

Again, only by misreading "even" to mean "only" can you revert this specific permission to start in reserve to only apply to missions without the reserves rule. Literally you can only hold your current position if you change the words of the rule to mean something entirely different

I'm with Nosferatu on this one, I don't necessarily think it's RAI, but I think the RAW is absolutely clear, they are given permission to always have the option to be Reserved for a Deep Strike, and then this is further clarified to not be dependent on Deep Strike being permitted by the mission being played.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
I'm with Nosferatu on this one, I don't necessarily think it's RAI, but I think the RAW is absolutely clear, they are given permission to always have the option to be Reserved for a Deep Strike, and then this is further clarified to not be dependent on Deep Strike being permitted by the mission being played.

They are given the option to be kept in reserve even if the mission type doesnt allow it. It says nothing about if the rules don't allow it. Just saying its a bit diferent.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
I'm with Nosferatu on this one, I don't necessarily think it's RAI, but I think the RAW is absolutely clear, they are given permission to always have the option to be Reserved for a Deep Strike, and then this is further clarified to not be dependent on Deep Strike being permitted by the mission being played.

They are given the option to be kept in reserve even if the mission type doesnt allow it. It says nothing about if the rules don't allow it. Just saying its a bit diferent.

No, They are given the option to be kept in reserve at all times, regardless of other factors, the fact that it goes on to clarify that the mission type has no bearing doesn't change what the initial statement was, which is "They may always start the game in Reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules" (From the Dark Angels dex, there might be slight variations on wording in others)

"Always" is a very powerful word.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
I'm with Nosferatu on this one, I don't necessarily think it's RAI, but I think the RAW is absolutely clear, they are given permission to always have the option to be Reserved for a Deep Strike, and then this is further clarified to not be dependent on Deep Strike being permitted by the mission being played.

They are given the option to be kept in reserve even if the mission type doesnt allow it. It says nothing about if the rules don't allow it. Just saying its a bit diferent.

WRONG. Seriously.

"may always be held in reserve" = unqualified permission to be held in reserve
"even if" = means that, in a mission that does not have Reserves as a rule, this unqualified permission still holds.

This is not something you can dispute. The rule is absiolutely incontestable when you parse it according to standard, basic English.

In order for it to say what you are positing it woul dhave to say "only", in order to limit / restrict the unqualified permission. It does not say that

In this case must=always (must be allowed to is the same as is always allowed to by your argument). Can't trumps must, even you have argued that before. Can't is covered by the 50% reserves rule, and is not specifically overridden by the rule. Therefore, since can't trumps must, must equals always, can't trumps always, unless specifically stated. 50% reserves, can't deepstrike. Mission rules say no reserves, can deepstrike. Basic logic.

Permissive ruleset. You need specific permission to override a restriction. You don't have it.

Advanced overrides Basic. Basic is trying to prevent you from being put into reserves, when your unqualified "may always" say you can be put into reserves.

Try again

liturgies of blood nailed it with the first answer...simplicity at it finest

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Advanced overrides Basic. Basic is trying to prevent you from being put into reserves, when your unqualified "may always" say you can be put into reserves.

Try again

Your advanced rule doesn't give you permission to ignore reserves restrictions.