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I've been running a chaos army for a little while now, and I'm still new. But, with 6th edition out and the new Allies rule, I was considering adding some Daemon to my Roster.

So my question is basically, is it worth the points you will have to invest into them to take some Chaos Daemons as allies for a CSM army?

Maybe?

We're not sure yet

I think its worth it. You can get some neat units, its very fluffy, the deepstriking allows you to make your opponent second guess themselves where the daemons will land, and the daemons CC prowess can really help and can also be threatening enough to add valuable target saturation.

Yes, I have been running a mono nurgle CSM/Daemons army and even with just one god I can cover all of my bases. There are some great daemon combos now with heralds and wound allocation. You can also add a couple of flying MC's or a Soul Grinder (which is super durable with the 5++) to compliment other heavy vehicles.

**Edit: changed to soul grinder**

I agree with @ThatEdGuy, i run mono-slaanesh so its great to allow my noise marines to focus purely on shooting as the allied units (daemonettes and fiends) are designed to get up close and personal.

The Soul Grinder does not get the 5+ Invulnerable save. The FAQ specifically says to follow the brackets for the Daemon special rule but says to add "and has the Fear special rule." Afraid that doesn't include the update to include the 5+ invulnerable save.

Don't I wish it did, though!

 Krisken wrote:
The Soul Grinder does not get the 5+ Invulnerable save. The FAQ specifically says to follow the brackets for the Daemon special rule but says to add "and has the Fear special rule." Afraid that doesn't include the update to include the 5+ invulnerable save.

Don't I wish it did, though!

Wow. I don't know how someone rules lawyered that so that GW needed a FAQ.
My daemon codex: Daemon special rule has 4 notes to it, one of them details how they are not vulnerable to normal weapons blahblah not of the materium etc etc. Gives eternal warrior, yadda yadda. In addition, any save on the profile of a model with the daemon special rule is an invulnerable save

So if a model with that rule has a save included in its profile, it is an invulnerable save. Simple yeah?

*looks at soulgrinder entry/profile*
*notes lack of invul save, or any mention of any kind of save on its profile*
THIS needed a faq? In 6th ed, a FMC that is grounded by taking wounds, can be grounded repeatedly because of the badly written rules.

and THIS needed a faq?

It's been a common mistake, really. A lot of the blogs have been mistakenly saying the Grinder gets the 5++ save, so I can understand how the misconception could be spreading, especially if the rules were just glossed over.

 Krisken wrote:
It's been a common mistake, really. A lot of the blogs have been mistakenly saying the Grinder gets the 5++ save, so I can understand how the misconception could be spreading, especially if the rules were just glossed over.

And where did the blogs get these 5++'s from? Magical wishland ?
So many people look to bloggers for information, and never check their "wisdom". applying critical thinking to the opinions of others? nooooooo lol

Well, as the defiler is rumored to have a 5++ and soul grinders are pretty much defilers that have been triple possessed, it makes since. Of course, we'll have to wait and see. It makes since that a soul grinder has a 5++ because as it is more demon then machine, it probably has regeneration abilities as well. Of course, since i don't play demons, I'm not complaining.

The biggest advantage of a Chaos Marine x Demon list lies in rumors (though keep in mind rumors are pretty accurate, for proof they flawlessly listed the contents of vengeance a month early). Apparently Chaos icons will be able to work as demonic teleport homers. Other advantages are they can put the preassure on the opponent turn 1 when that bloodthirster shows up near his precious HQ

since the codex is not out yet and its just a rumor, it doesn't make sense to debate whether or not a soulgrinder should have it.

Since a bloodthirster arrives on turn 1, your going to have to infiltrate an icon to have it show up near their HQ. And you can't charge when you arrive.

So there will be a bloodthirster sitting in the middle of their army for a full turn. Now to me, as the opponent, I'm not really complaining. You want to throw away 270p of bloodthirster by giving me a single big fat target?...your loss

Also, CSM icons already work as demonic teleport homers. This does not work with the other codices like daemons. So we don't know if we can use CSM icons to teleport in C: D daemons as well as CSM daemons.

I would just stick to the daemons you have since they have so many more options and if you use the double forced organisation chart you could possibly have 6 winged daemon princes which are completely epic. Also you could have more points available for 3 units of 3 flamers, 6 bloodcrushers 6 fiends of slaanesh. it really depends on how many points you want to play with and i would focus most of your points on heavy support and elites since they have got so much more better since the 6th edition rules recently came out.

quilava1: A soul grinder isnt actually any form of defiler.
Its actually just a daemon forged into a machine, rather than a possessed machine.
Which is why its soo heavily mutated.

I also think the 5++ confusion comes from the fact that everything in the daemons book has a 5++ or better (Tzeentch and GD's being an exception)


OT: Daemons can bolster marines and vice versa.
Its usually only the top tier armies that actually suffer from taking allies.

HQ: plenty of options here, thirster being a nice one or skulltaker on a jugger if you intend to add crushers later.
Or to be sneaky, epidemius is quite a nice one if you plan on running a nurgle themed army.

Troops: Not soo many nice choices :(
Dont get me wrong, they arent bad, but the best troops choice for daemons i would say are plagues, and they are outdone by plaguemarines as they can take a transport and have a ranged weapon.

You have a lot of options to support your CSM army. Basically cover for your weaknesses.

Plague Bearers - nigh unkillable good anti-personnel. Good for holding objectives.

Flamers- Interesting assault killers. Enemy should fear and ignore them.

Epidemius - Works well with plague marines.

Daemon Princes - they fly they don't jump pack.

Bloodcrushers- awesome assault units.

There are many more but think about what you need to cover for the weaknesses of your CSM army.

I have been running a thousand sons CSM army with some Tzeench Demon allies and they compliment each other quite nicely. Flamers are our winds of chaos, only cheaper and better as its not a psychic power that can be stopped and screamers are our answer to anti tank since they are fast (jetbikes) and have solid anti tank (hit vehicles on 3+ usually and are S5 Ap2 armor bane-2d6). The fact that they are AP2 means you can send them into terminators too... Just my thoughts on tzeench demons in a CSM army.

Fateweaver with obliterators/Terminators is pretty silly too!

Need to keep in mind though that khornate units have been hit with the nerf bat pretty badly though.

Dont get me wrong, crushers still work well, but have issues now.

1: AP3 means you wont be hunting termies anymore, and since you only have a ++ save and iron hide they are just as easy to hunt with normal power weps.

2: You could usually charge into a large assault without needing support with a decent sized unit (6 or so)
Now you need to think about it more as your going to be shot at as you rush into combat.


Daemons were allways safer in combat, however, they now have to pick targets with alot more care as they are fragile as ever, and will pick up losses before they get to kill anything.

Tzeentch daemons on the other hand, i guessing being shot by a ton of fire before dragging them into combat means that small elite units will possibly keep a distance from them.
And screamers, well, they just got even better (done the job in 5th as it was)
As said above, they are the lords of anti-armour for daemons. (new models are nice too, shame ive got 20 metal ones :()

you get more elite and heavy slots which can be useful for playing a heavy points game.

Say you have a vindicator, defiler, and predator on top of those choices you can add a soul grinder not to mention whatever elites your favored god has at their disposal.

all you need is 5 troops and you open up another slot for whatever the feth you want.

 Jackal wrote:

I also think the 5++ confusion comes from the fact that everything in the daemons book has a 5++ or better (Tzeentch and GD's being an exception)

Why does it come with a 5++ or better?
Because the rule states its save on its profile is invulnerable
Therefore, the soulgrinder has a 5++?
Considering its profile is a few pages away from the rule, the "confusion" is bad lazy logic

 Jackal wrote:

Troops: Not soo many nice choices :(
Dont get me wrong, they arent bad, but the best troops choice for daemons i would say are plagues, and they are outdone by plaguemarines as they can take a transport and have a ranged weapon.

Plagues 5++/5+++ is roughly around 50% chance of saving. T5 with a 4+ save ain't to shabby. The upside plague bearers have is they can DS and really tarpit units, especially juicy things like tac marines sitting on objectives.
Horrors also can add some ranged shots. For 5p the changeling makes them a nuisance, and 15 S4 shots isn't something you exactly complain about adding to your bolter fire

I think that it is definitely worth the points, it is advised to spend half the points for both armies, but it is appropriate to have about 100-250 points more. the other option is to take a full CSM army since CD are very expensive in points so unless you want to spend the points on cheaper Daemon units such as flamer, plaguebearers etc. , it would be well worth the points.

 Jihallah wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

I also think the 5++ confusion comes from the fact that everything in the daemons book has a 5++ or better (Tzeentch and GD's being an exception)

Why does it come with a 5++ or better?
Because the rule states its save on its profile is invulnerable
Therefore, the soulgrinder has a 5++?
Considering its profile is a few pages away from the rule, the "confusion" is bad lazy logic

I think the confusion comes from the 6th Ed rulebook. I don't have my book in front of my (at work) but I think in the special rules section under Daemon it says something like "All models with the Daemon rule have a 5+ invulnerable save and cause fear". The 6th Ed Daemon FAQ states that you only add the part about causing fear to the Soulgrinder's bracketed exception to the Daemon rule listed in its codex entry, while leaving other restrictions in place. If someone hadn't seen the FAQ, I think it's perfectly understandable why they'd think it had a 5++.

I would say that if i didn't think everyone should be checking their faqs. New ruleset+old codex=mandatory imo.

 Jihallah wrote:
I would say that if i didn't think everyone should be checking their faqs. New ruleset+old codex=mandatory imo.

I completely agree with you. I was just pointing out where I thought the confusion was coming from.