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Ok ok, so the title is a little misleading and not necessarily how to break the game, but I would like to know some "combos" that people use, will use, or just have thought about that is possible that can give your opponents "the business".

For example: The Sanguinor armed with a Glaive Encarmine (Maul) is 6 attacks on the charge, Strength 8, initiative 6, with concussive, and re-roll on one miss.

Or another good one that I use a lot with Blood Angels is a 10 man assault squad with a Chaplain (or Reclusiarch) and a Sanguinary Priest, both with Jump Packs. You now have a 12 man unit, all with Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, and re-rolls hits on the charge and will only scatter D6". I used to put Danté in with them too but rethinking that now that he has a power axe.

My favorite: a heavy quad launcher battery. Make it full size with the maximum number of extra crew. Congratulations, you now have a 12-shot multiple barrage weapon, plus the lasguns from the crew. Now, review the rules for multiple barrage weapons, where you will discover the awesome fact that wound allocation on the closest model is done separately from the center of each individual blast. So, assuming you get a good hit with the first shot, you should have twelve separate sets of "closest model", plus an extra one for the crew's lasguns. Add in the time required to place twelve blast templates and resolving the unit's shooting should take a very long time. For best results, target a unit with mixed saves, characters (for LOS) and weapon upgrades (to maximize the amount of arguing over which is the closest model).

The awesome thing about this unit is that it's under 200 points, and IG can take three of them as elites. This effectively guarantees that each of your shooting phases will take so long that your opponent will throw their dice at you in frustration and concede the game.

 Peregrine wrote:
My favorite: a heavy quad launcher battery. Make it full size with the maximum number of extra crew. Congratulations, you now have a 12-shot multiple barrage weapon, plus the lasguns from the crew. Now, review the rules for multiple barrage weapons, where you will discover the awesome fact that wound allocation on the closest model is done separately from the center of each individual blast. So, assuming you get a good hit with the first shot, you should have twelve separate sets of "closest model", plus an extra one for the crew's lasguns. Add in the time required to place twelve blast templates and resolving the unit's shooting should take a very long time. For best results, target a unit with mixed saves, characters (for LOS) and weapon upgrades (to maximize the amount of arguing over which is the closest model).

The awesome thing about this unit is that it's under 200 points, and IG can take three of them as elites. This effectively guarantees that each of your shooting phases will take so long that your opponent will throw their dice at you in frustration and concede the game.

Haha brutal. That would really mess up a tournament.

Not really seeing as most tournies have time limits.

 Ratbarf wrote:
Not really seeing as most tournies have time limits.

Which is why you make sure that you can win on objectives in a one-turn game. After all, it's not slow play if I'm resolving things as fast as the (broken) game rules will allow. It's not my fault GW included legal units that take a lot of time to handle.

Or you just keep taking hour-long shooting phases until your opponent ragequits. A win is a win, no matter how you earn it.

I think the recent FAQs changed blasts so they all allocate wounds off the first hit as closest now. Generate hit pool from all blast hits, then allocate from the first blast in the barrage.

So that cuts about 10 minutes off of your 40 minute shooting phase.

 McGibs wrote:
I think the recent FAQs changed blasts so they all allocate wounds off the first hit as closest now. Generate hit pool from all blast hits, then allocate from the first blast in the barrage.

So that cuts about 10 minutes off of your 40 minute shooting phase.

Nope. Current FAQ explicitly says that you do it for each separate template.

Where do you see that?

It says:

Q: In a multiple barrage, do you determine all of the hits and all of
the Wounds separately for each blast, or do you resolve all of blasts
in one go? (p34)
A: Work out the total number of models hit by the multiple
barrage, then proceed to allocate Wounds and remove
casualties all in one go..

That's because you have FAQ v1 from a few days ago, not the most recent FAQ v1a. Download the newest pdf and look at that section again.


(Don't you love GW's new policy of randomly changing stuff?)

Lol, I thought you were joking!
GW is resembling the bloated, inefficient machine that is the imperium with every passing day.

Q: In a multiple barrage, do you determine all of the hits and all of
the Wounds separately for each blast, or do you resolve all of blasts
in one go? (p34)
A: Work out the total number of models hit by each
template, then proceed to allocate Wounds and remove
casualties as normal for the models hit by each seperate
template.


...they also spelt 'separate' wrong.

allocate Wounds and remove
casualties as normal for the models hit by each seperate
template.

It says it right there. As the normal way to allocate wounds and remove casualties is by going from the center hole.

Holy crap Peregrine, thats nasty!

My favorite broken issue in the C:SM is to spam Telion on the Quad gun. If you take a main contingent of SM, and allies SM you can have two of him. He is unique per army, but allies are technically a separate army, just use separate vanilla chapter and do "counts as" . Drop him behind an ADL and man the Quadgun, now you've got 2x S7 snipers with four shots each that have the Precision special rule on all shots Thats two dead ICs per round, and or 2 dead fliers. Plus, with the upgrades of stealth and the cloaks, Telion and crew gets a 2++ cover save, meaning these units will wind up eating alot of fire power. Not sure if it qualify as broken, but its nasty

You can't ally with your own codex. So no dual Telion.

 Instinctual wrote:
My favorite broken issue in the C:SM is to spam Telion on the Quad gun. If you take a main contingent of SM, and allies SM you can have two of him. Drop him behind an ADL and man the Quadgun, now you've got 2x S7 snipers with four shots each that have the Precision special rule on all shots Thats two dead ICs per round, and or 2 dead fliers. Plus, with the upgrades of stealth and the cloaks, Telion and crew gets a 2++ cover save, meaning these units will wind up eating alot of fire power. Not sure if it qualify as broken, but its nasty

Except you can't take allies from the same list as the main army, and unique characters are limited to one per army.

Peregrine wrote:

A win is a win, no matter how you earn it.

No, no it isnt.

Crap, and here I thought I'd found a broken rule :( Thanks for the clarification guys

Step I: Take an Elysian drop troop army
Step II: Take only vets w/ demo charges as troops and fill up the rest of your points with vendettas and vultures
Step III: Have the vets deepstrike and drop AP 2 templates anywhere, while the annoying flyers do everything else
Step IV: ???
Step V: Your opponent smashes your $80 vendetta on the floor in a fit of rage

You forgot the part about losing on turn one because none of your models are on the board.

Buttons wrote:
Step I: Take an Elysian drop troop army
Step II: Take only vets w/ demo charges as troops and fill up the rest of your points with vendettas and vultures
Step III: Lose the game automatically at the end of turn 1 because you have no models on the table.
Step IV: ???
Step V: You cry about the fact that 6th killed your expensive Elysian army and put it up on ebay.

Fixed that for you.

Dandruff wrote:
Ok ok, so the title is a little misleading and not necessarily how to break the game, but I would like to know some "combos" that people use, will use, or just have thought about that is possible that can give your opponents "the business".

For example: The Sanguinor armed with a Glaive Encarmine (Maul) is 6 attacks on the charge, Strength 8, initiative 6, with concussive, and re-roll on one miss.

Or another good one that I use a lot with Blood Angels is a 10 man assault squad with a Chaplain (or Reclusiarch) and a Sanguinary Priest, both with Jump Packs. You now have a 12 man unit, all with Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, and re-rolls hits on the charge and will only scatter D6". I used to put Danté in with them too but rethinking that now that he has a power axe.

Glaive Encarmine cannot be mauls. Check the FAQ. If they have a sword, it's a sword, if it's an axe, it's an axe. Sanguinor has a sword.

2nd example is nothing really new and still susceptible to battle cannons and better.

Delete me. Misread post.

 Surtur wrote:

Dandruff wrote:
Ok ok, so the title is a little misleading and not necessarily how to break the game, but I would like to know some "combos" that people use, will use, or just have thought about that is possible that can give your opponents "the business".

For example: The Sanguinor armed with a Glaive Encarmine (Maul) is 6 attacks on the charge, Strength 8, initiative 6, with concussive, and re-roll on one miss.

Or another good one that I use a lot with Blood Angels is a 10 man assault squad with a Chaplain (or Reclusiarch) and a Sanguinary Priest, both with Jump Packs. You now have a 12 man unit, all with Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, and re-rolls hits on the charge and will only scatter D6". I used to put Danté in with them too but rethinking that now that he has a power axe.

Glaive Encarmine cannot be mauls. Check the FAQ. If they have a sword, it's a sword, if it's an axe, it's an axe. Sanguinor has a sword.

2nd example is nothing really new and still susceptible to battle cannons and better.

umm Why can't it be a axe it never said you have to treat the weapon you have as it is. The whole debate about power weapons came because it never said which weapon a model had.

Since a Glaive Encarmine can be a sword or axe, you can choose which to equipe you modell with since the rules only say Glaive Encarmine and the model has a sword but you can always not use that model. Just because a SM libby model comes with a combi bolt pistol you do not have only that option.

So he can have a axe if he wants.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
My favorite: a heavy quad launcher battery. Make it full size with the maximum number of extra crew. Congratulations, you now have a 12-shot multiple barrage weapon, plus the lasguns from the crew. Now, review the rules for multiple barrage weapons, where you will discover the awesome fact that wound allocation on the closest model is done separately from the center of each individual blast. So, assuming you get a good hit with the first shot, you should have twelve separate sets of "closest model", plus an extra one for the crew's lasguns. Add in the time required to place twelve blast templates and resolving the unit's shooting should take a very long time. For best results, target a unit with mixed saves, characters (for LOS) and weapon upgrades (to maximize the amount of arguing over which is the closest model).

The awesome thing about this unit is that it's under 200 points, and IG can take three of them as elites. This effectively guarantees that each of your shooting phases will take so long that your opponent will throw their dice at you in frustration and concede the game.

Haha brutal. That would really mess up a tournament.

Depends on the TO. Had a similar situation last weekend at a local tourney and due to time restrictions, we could barely not eveh turn 2, especially with him rolling dices separately (seriously, wtf!). I complained to the TO and he said he'd have a look into it with the rest of the crew. Game was counted as a loss though...not heavily motivated, I started the second match and fortunately played against Tyranids (aka tabled at the end of turn 3). Anyway, after the second match, the TO asked me and my first opponent to come see the judges and they declared the match result void aka I'd get a draw instead of a loss and he'd get a loss for "purposely prolonging the game". Didn't matter much because I faced and lost to Grey Knight in match 3, but made my result look better.

His list was afterwards declared illegal and at the end of the tourney, they brought the issue up to the public and announced that any list must be playable and designed to play a game in a timely fashion. Purposely prolonging the game or making lists that will make timely finished games impossible will be banned.

Overall, that guy was a total douche and so is everyone who brings stuff like that up. It's lame, not fun at all and downright disrespectful towards your enemy.

 Sigvatr wrote:
His list was afterwards declared illegal and at the end of the tourney, they brought the issue up to the public and announced that any list must be playable and designed to play a game in a timely fashion. Purposely prolonging the game or making lists that will make timely finished games impossible will be banned.

And if any tournament organizer did that in an event I was a part of I would never attend any future events or (in the case of store hosts) buy anything from them again, and I would encourage everyone I know to do the same. Slow play is one thing, but it is entirely unacceptable to punish players that take the "wrong" lists as a substitute for ensuring that your events are scheduled with sufficient time for every game to finish. If a player is making decisions/rolling dice/etc at a reasonable pace* it does not magically become "slow play" just because there are a lot of dice to roll. Any judge who rules otherwise should be ashamed of their behavior and resign from the hobby.

In the case of the quad gun battery, it's a perfectly legitimate unit, and was a very effective one in 5th. It's not my fault that GW's hilariously unprofessional game designers changed the rules to make it incredibly awkward and time consuming to use it in 6th.


*And no, rolling dice one at a time is not necessarily slow play either, since there are many cases in 6th where you are required to roll dice one at a time.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
My favorite: a heavy quad launcher battery. Make it full size with the maximum number of extra crew. Congratulations, you now have a 12-shot multiple barrage weapon, plus the lasguns from the crew. Now, review the rules for multiple barrage weapons, where you will discover the awesome fact that wound allocation on the closest model is done separately from the center of each individual blast. So, assuming you get a good hit with the first shot, you should have twelve separate sets of "closest model", plus an extra one for the crew's lasguns. Add in the time required to place twelve blast templates and resolving the unit's shooting should take a very long time. For best results, target a unit with mixed saves, characters (for LOS) and weapon upgrades (to maximize the amount of arguing over which is the closest model).

The awesome thing about this unit is that it's under 200 points, and IG can take three of them as elites. This effectively guarantees that each of your shooting phases will take so long that your opponent will throw their dice at you in frustration and concede the game.

Haha brutal. That would really mess up a tournament.

Depends on the TO. Had a similar situation last weekend at a local tourney and due to time restrictions, we could barely not eveh turn 2, especially with him rolling dices separately (seriously, wtf!). I complained to the TO and he said he'd have a look into it with the rest of the crew. Game was counted as a loss though...not heavily motivated, I started the second match and fortunately played against Tyranids (aka tabled at the end of turn 3). Anyway, after the second match, the TO asked me and my first opponent to come see the judges and they declared the match result void aka I'd get a draw instead of a loss and he'd get a loss for "purposely prolonging the game". Didn't matter much because I faced and lost to Grey Knight in match 3, but made my result look better.

His list was afterwards declared illegal and at the end of the tourney, they brought the issue up to the public and announced that any list must be playable and designed to play a game in a timely fashion. Purposely prolonging the game or making lists that will make timely finished games impossible will be banned.

Overall, that guy was a total douche and so is everyone who brings stuff like that up. It's lame, not fun at all and downright disrespectful towards your enemy.

what do you expecct its a tournament people go to win prizes and play with other crazy armies, people who go to play for fun obviously arrn't looking to win and should not expect to find a tournament enjoyable becuase it is after a tournament.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
His list was afterwards declared illegal and at the end of the tourney, they brought the issue up to the public and announced that any list must be playable and designed to play a game in a timely fashion. Purposely prolonging the game or making lists that will make timely finished games impossible will be banned.

And if any tournament organizer did that in an event I was a part of I would never attend any future events or (in the case of store hosts) buy anything from them again, and I would encourage everyone I know to do the same. Slow play is one thing, but it is entirely unacceptable to punish players that take the "wrong" lists as a substitute for ensuring that your events are scheduled with sufficient time for every game to finish. If a player is making decisions/rolling dice/etc at a reasonable pace* it does not magically become "slow play" just because there are a lot of dice to roll. Any judge who rules otherwise should be ashamed of their behavior and resign from the hobby.

In the case of the quad gun battery, it's a perfectly legitimate unit, and was a very effective one in 5th. It's not my fault that GW's hilariously unprofessional game designers changed the rules to make it incredibly awkward and time consuming to use it in 6th.


*And no, rolling dice one at a time is not necessarily slow play either, since there are many cases in 6th where you are required to roll dice one at a time.

And thats your choice of course, but also on the flip side, people should not try to cheat or abuse a system if they are told that the games have a 2 hour time slot and if they do abuse or cheat the system and are cought. they desrve to be banned or marked down.

And if cought outright cheating, then who will miss them if they boycott the store or dont come to the next tourney.

 Formosa wrote:
And thats your choice of course, but also on the flip side, people should not try to cheat or abuse a system if they are told that the games have a 2 hour time slot and if they do abuse or cheat the system and are cought. they desrve to be banned or marked down.

So is a player who brings green tide orks a cheater? Is a person who actually shoots with the lasguns in a blob squad a cheater? Where do you draw the line, and how do you consistently enforce it without just resorting to allowing the judge to disqualify anyone they don't like?

Or, how about instead of blaming the player who brings a legal list we blame the incompetent tournament organizers who refuse to allow sufficient time for the points levels they use.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
And thats your choice of course, but also on the flip side, people should not try to cheat or abuse a system if they are told that the games have a 2 hour time slot and if they do abuse or cheat the system and are cought. they desrve to be banned or marked down.

So is a player who brings green tide orks a cheater? Is a person who actually shoots with the lasguns in a blob squad a cheater? Where do you draw the line, and how do you consistently enforce it without just resorting to allowing the judge to disqualify anyone they don't like?

Or, how about instead of blaming the player who brings a legal list we blame the incompetent tournament organizers who refuse to allow sufficient time for the points levels they use.

Both of these are clearly not cheating, unless for example the greentide ork player starts rolling dice 1 at a time for his attacks or shots or the blob player measures the move distance for each of his 300 guardsman 1 model at a time (we all know what im talking about here... and its really annoying).

Now should a Tourny organisor make allowances for all these kinds of armies or should it be down to the player, Answer is both really, you as a player should know how long you have to play and the T organisor should know that things like a greentide army will turn up an account for it, the TO should NOT however allow willful flouting of the timelimit rules to account for a TFG that wants to spend 1 hour on his dakka phase, the TO will never allow a 6 hour game just for one dude trying to be a douche

 Formosa wrote:
Both of these are clearly not cheating, unless for example the greentide ork player starts rolling dice 1 at a time for his attacks or shots or the blob player measures the move distance for each of his 300 guardsman 1 model at a time (we all know what im talking about here... and its really annoying).

Then neither is the quad gun battery. It's just a unit that, like a green tide army, requires complex resolution with a lot of bookkeeping and rolling individual dice. A player who takes it but resolves it at a reasonable pace is not cheating, just like a green tide player who moves his models at a reasonable pace isn't cheating just because he has 200 of them.

And don't complain about the IG player who measures everything one at a time, since the rules explicitly say that you must do it that way. There is absolutely no obligation for either player to allow or use movement shortcuts in a game where the exact position of each model is important.

Now should a Tourny organisor make allowances for all these kinds of armies or should it be down to the player, Answer is both really, you as a player should know how long you have to play and the T organisor should know that things like a greentide army will turn up an account for it, the TO should NOT however allow willful flouting of the timelimit rules to account for a TFG that wants to spend 1 hour on his dakka phase, the TO will never allow a 6 hour game just for one dude trying to be a douche

Define "willful" in such a way that you can make an objective ruling on it. And please note that the unit in question is a perfectly legal one, exactly identical to a unit that would have been used in 5th edition even though its shots were much simpler and faster to resolve.

And you can whine all you like about TFG, but if the game contains units which make a phase take an hour (at a reasonable pace of thinking and rolling) than a competent tournament organizer needs to allow enough time for hour-long phases. If they can't, then they need to scale the point level back until the phase no longer takes an hour, even if that means they're running a 500 point tournament.

You're speaking from a TFG perspective while I take the perspective of a normal person taking part in a tournament.

Most people in a tournament will run cheesy lists and that's 100% right as you want to win. Making lists that are clearly tailored to not playing but prolonging the game should be 100% illegal, the player should feel bad and be banned from the tournament.

Tailoring a list that's only aimed at making your turn as long as possible and thus force a lose to your enemy is abusing / exploiting the system and thus bannable behaviour. Just have a look at the competitive scene of online games and check how they treat exploiters. 40k is and should be no exception.

Banning such a slowpoke list was the only right decision in that case. If you're sayig that it's ok to have lists that force an auto-lose, well, ok, have fun playing alone then. People like you won't be missed.