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I'm seeing a lot of people say that axes are the best power weapon because of the ap2, but whats the point of getting +1 s instead of taking a powerfist which doubles it?

What I was thinking was make the axe strike at I2 so that it has good side compared to the powerfist, but is still slower than other close combat weapons.

The only problem I've found with this though would be the fact everyone would take them so it would make termies less atractive than they all ready are.

I think I've seen this before. Can't say I really like the idea though, it'd mean that no one ever took fists since they will almost always die to a power axe before they get to swing.

Right now the power axe also has the benefit of not being a Specialist weapon, so you're generally getting +1A with it which you usually aren't with a Fist.

 Testify wrote:
I think I've seen this before. Can't say I really like the idea though, it'd mean that no one ever took fists since they will almost always die to a power axe before they get to swing.

This. Also axes are cheaper than fists and still wound MEQs on a 3+ (assuming an MEQ is carrying the axe) wounding on a 2+ isn't that big an advantage.

Hadn't seen this being disscused before, sorry for the repeat.

Yes I agree with all of the points, just can't find a reason to take the axe over fist that seems worth it.

Axe is sometimes available where fist isn't (IG, Eldar, Anywhere where it says "power weapons" or has been errata'd to such).

smUrfsrUs wrote:
Hadn't seen this being disscused before, sorry for the repeat.

Yes I agree with all of the points, just can't find a reason to take the axe over fist that seems worth it.

5 Points less, if taken by an MEQ still wounds MEQs on a 3+ (not much difference between a 3+ and a 2+ really), get +1 attack.

Buttons wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:
Hadn't seen this being disscused before, sorry for the repeat.

Yes I agree with all of the points, just can't find a reason to take the axe over fist that seems worth it.

5 Points less, if taken by an MEQ still wounds MEQs on a 3+ (not much difference between a 3+ and a 2+ really), get +1 attack.

Which is countered by the ability to destroy vehicles easier. The libraian is the one thing that deffinatly needs and axe, seeing how he can't take a fist.

smUrfsrUs wrote:

Buttons wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:
Hadn't seen this being disscused before, sorry for the repeat.

Yes I agree with all of the points, just can't find a reason to take the axe over fist that seems worth it.

5 Points less, if taken by an MEQ still wounds MEQs on a 3+ (not much difference between a 3+ and a 2+ really), get +1 attack.

Which is countered by the ability to destroy vehicles easier. The libraian is the one thing that deffinatly needs and axe, seeing how he can't take a fist.

It isn't as if glancing vehicles to death is hard this edition, especially since 3-4 glancing or penetrating hits (axe is str 5 so you could potentially score a penetrating hit) will kill any vehicle.

Buttons wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:

Buttons wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:
Hadn't seen this being disscused before, sorry for the repeat.

Yes I agree with all of the points, just can't find a reason to take the axe over fist that seems worth it.

5 Points less, if taken by an MEQ still wounds MEQs on a 3+ (not much difference between a 3+ and a 2+ really), get +1 attack.

Which is countered by the ability to destroy vehicles easier. The libraian is the one thing that deffinatly needs and axe, seeing how he can't take a fist.

It isn't as if glancing vehicles to death is hard this edition, especially since 3-4 glancing or penetrating hits (axe is str 5 so you could potentially score a penetrating hit) will kill any vehicle.

S5 gives you a 1/3 chance of getting a hull point from AV10 (common back armour). So against an average vehicle with 3 HP, it'd take 3 rounds of combat to glance it to death.

 Testify wrote:

Buttons wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:

Buttons wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:
Hadn't seen this being disscused before, sorry for the repeat.

Yes I agree with all of the points, just can't find a reason to take the axe over fist that seems worth it.

5 Points less, if taken by an MEQ still wounds MEQs on a 3+ (not much difference between a 3+ and a 2+ really), get +1 attack.

Which is countered by the ability to destroy vehicles easier. The libraian is the one thing that deffinatly needs and axe, seeing how he can't take a fist.

It isn't as if glancing vehicles to death is hard this edition, especially since 3-4 glancing or penetrating hits (axe is str 5 so you could potentially score a penetrating hit) will kill any vehicle.

S5 gives you a 1/3 chance of getting a hull point from AV10 (common back armour). So against an average vehicle with 3 HP, it'd take 3 rounds of combat to glance it to death.

Because you always charge a vehicle with just one model.

Buttons wrote:

 Testify wrote:

Buttons wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:

Buttons wrote:

smUrfsrUs wrote:
Hadn't seen this being disscused before, sorry for the repeat.

Yes I agree with all of the points, just can't find a reason to take the axe over fist that seems worth it.

5 Points less, if taken by an MEQ still wounds MEQs on a 3+ (not much difference between a 3+ and a 2+ really), get +1 attack.

Which is countered by the ability to destroy vehicles easier. The libraian is the one thing that deffinatly needs and axe, seeing how he can't take a fist.

It isn't as if glancing vehicles to death is hard this edition, especially since 3-4 glancing or penetrating hits (axe is str 5 so you could potentially score a penetrating hit) will kill any vehicle.

S5 gives you a 1/3 chance of getting a hull point from AV10 (common back armour). So against an average vehicle with 3 HP, it'd take 3 rounds of combat to glance it to death.

Because you always charge a vehicle with just one model.

This^ Since when is your Sargent or Librarian going after vehicles alone?

Although I like the AP3/AP2 switcharound, the system is very annoying when your army lacks AP2.

How it should work is an option of two attacks.
Take a Power Sword/Unusual for example

You can attack normally at AP3
OR half your attacks to gain AP2 (like Smash)

You decide where the rest fits

Axe is fine as is. It's 10 points cheaper than the first everywhere that I have an option for it.

The only place I go all in with fists is Sanguin Guard. I run a unit of 5 with all fists. They're my jump pack terminators.
5 guys, all with assaults S4 shooting, A2 power fists and 2+ armor.
I lose out on the 5+ invul but gain a great deal of speed.

-Matt

It is stupid with Kharn. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, AFTER I FIRST GET ATTACKED BY EVERY MAN AND HIS DOG!

I liked standard Power Weapons that negated armour saves . . .

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
It is stupid with Kharn. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, AFTER I FIRST GET ATTACKED BY EVERY MAN AND HIS DOG!

I liked standard Power Weapons that negated armour saves . . .

Not me, I hated that aspect. "Hey look, we have clothes for armor" say the orks. "Hey look, we have tactical dreadnought armor" say the space marines. "Hey look, this *any power weapon* I have ignores it all." Absolutely most ludicrous thing. Not to mention the necron weapons that ignored invul saves as well (which my friends DESPISED with a passion).
I know that some of it still exists now but at least they FEEL different from other power weapons now.

No, power weapons were just too good.

Well if they were nearly magical and had a glowing aura around them and they were well-built then why not? I would have made them rarer and more expensive though. I see your point.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
It is stupid with Kharn. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, AFTER I FIRST GET ATTACKED BY EVERY MAN AND HIS DOG!

I liked standard Power Weapons that negated armour saves . . .

The problem was that it negated the power of terminators, tactical terminators in particular. Oh, look at this big bad 40 point unit designed to assault, oh, you have a power weapon, well now I only get a 5+ save. There is a reason storm shields were (and to an extent, although not as much) seen as necessary for terminators making most people choose TH/SS assault terminators over tactical termies or lightning claw terminators, because anyone who charges you is going to hit first and ignore your armour save, so without the SS you might end up with 3 units actually getting to attack out of a squad of 5. With the new power weapon rules, either most enemies are going to attack terminators at the same time, meaning the terminators will get their attacks, or they will be unable to ignore their armour meaning they are more likely to survive.

But the problem is that some units are seriously nerfed thanks to the new rules. eg Kharn. Initiative 1? For the Blood God's champion?

Actually I found it weird that he only had a power weapon. I expected a Daemon Weapon from him.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
But the problem is that some units are seriously nerfed thanks to the new rules. eg Kharn. Initiative 1? For the Blood God's champion?

Actually I found it weird that he only had a power weapon. I expected a Daemon Weapon from him.

Yes, and that is the new system having the kinks worked out. IMO most special characters should be allowed AP 2 at initiative value (assuming they originally had power weapons), they are special, some units such as Incubi should also have it, but a random Guard sergeant or space marine sergeant shouldn't be able to slay a terminator before he hits back due to having a 10/15 point weapon upgrade and some above average rolls.

Edit: Anyway CSM will probably get a new codex in a month or less.

SCs should ALWAYS strike at initiative. It is built into their points already.

This is why I dislike the FAQ rulings of SCs power weaponis into the new categories. The function works better with non-SC units though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
edit: Always strike at initiative but not regarding charging thorugh cover, grenade effects, etc etc. I meant in a vacuum.

I use the Power Axe if my group is intending to kill Terminators, I use the Power Fist If I am intending them to kill Vehicles. With my Templars I find myself bringing the Axe more times than not, the extra attack has been the deal breaker for me and the Melta in the along with mass S4 vs AV10 back armor tends to get the job done.

New rules for a new rule... hmmmm... good idea...

/sarcasm

 Deuce11 wrote:
SCs should ALWAYS strike at initiative. It is built into their points already.

Unless their equipment makes it otherwise, such as a special character armed with a power fist or thunder hammer. However I still wouldn't use the all encompassing term ALWAYS with emphasis added.

Buttons wrote:

 Deuce11 wrote:
SCs should ALWAYS strike at initiative. It is built into their points already.

Unless their equipment makes it otherwise, such as a special character armed with a power fist or thunder hammer. However I still wouldn't use the all encompassing term ALWAYS with emphasis added.

Well that is the point I guess.

Kharn, perfect example. This guy is meant to strike early. The change in the rule set took this advantage away from him bacuase all of a sudden Gorechild is unwieldly. Terrible. It would have made sense to FAQ Gorechild differently but generally speaking I think SCs should be able to take advantage of their higher initiatives.

It's not my fault 6th ed stumbles all over itself...

The real issue comes out when you compare a power fist to a frost axe, there is literally no point in taking the frost axe as the +1 A is not worth the -2S for the same points cost. implementing a rule that halves the I of the user rather than flat out making it 1 would make all axes fill the anti heavy infantry role without being made redundant by power fists. Seems like a serious oversight on the development team.