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So because of FW is releasing the HH books I started doing a little research on it. I stumbled upon the Primarchs and what happened to them; but it said that some of the traitor legions primarchs became daemon princes.

Since it says they became daemon princes why do we not see them in the battlefield?

Haha, you have the same avatar I used to have.

You know how it takes a lot of power to summon and then maintain a Daemon Prince, because their hold on the materium is flimsy?

The Daemon Primarchs have this problem to an event greater extent it seems, requiring massive amounts of power to summon and then keep them in the Materium.

That would explain why we dont see them often, but I would think that when one of the great legions make a push out of the eye of terror ( If they do so, I could be wrong and it's only the black legion that does that) if they ended up fighting a loyalest Chapter that they might make a appearance. Though now that I think about it They might only return if they made a push towards Terra.

The Primarchs of the 'big 4' Legions (Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus) actually used to be fieldable in Epic... or at least in it's previous guises as 'Space Marine' and 'Titan Legions'.

Angron is the only one who made it onto the table in 40K, and that was through a Black Gobbo or White Dwarf supplement... he was fairly lame.

That being said, expect to see Daemon Primarchs when Forgeworld's Horus Heresy series makes it up to the actual Heresy.

 Deacis657 wrote:
That would explain why we dont see them often, but I would think that when one of the great legions make a push out of the eye of terror ( If they do so, I could be wrong and it's only the black legion that does that) if they ended up fighting a loyalest Chapter that they might make a appearance. Though now that I think about it They might only return if they made a push towards Terra.

Most of them don't really care enough to enter the material realm.

 insaniak wrote:
The Primarchs of the 'big 4' Legions (Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus) actually used to be fieldable in Epic... or at least in it's previous guises as 'Space Marine' and 'Titan Legions'.

Angron is the only one who made it onto the table in 40K, and that was through a Black Gobbo or White Dwarf supplement... he was fairly lame.

That being said, expect to see Daemon Primarchs when Forgeworld's Horus Heresy series makes it up to the actual Heresy.

Fulgrim will be a killing machine, defeating one primarch before becoming a daemon, killing Guilliman after becoming a primarch who himself killed Alpharius.

3 main reasons:

1.) As Daemon Princes, they can not sustain themselves in the Materium for long. A good example was in the 1st War for Armageddon, Angron lost more or less because his army had to waste time erecting monuments to Khorne to keep him within our reality, giving the Imperium precious time. This is why Abaddon has never become a Daemon Prince (that, and the fact Horus never did).
2.) Daemon Princes give themselves utterly to the will and whims of the Gods. They get lost in the Great Game and more or less abandon their legion. Mortarion, Magnus, Fulgrim, and so on are all more or less doing their own thing without their greater Legion.
3.) GW wants to keep the story static but keep these popular characters around the corner for suspense purposes/to sell the universe better.

The biggest issue is that the fluff indicates that Daemon Primarchs are still Daemon Princes and thus will never escape the bounds of their original mortality, which makes them less powerful than normal Greater Daemons. The Heresy fluff spent a long time building up a shining image in our heads of unbeatably powerful horrendous monstrosities, but giving us rules that can't beat an ordinary Bloodthirster in a fight feels like kind of a letdown.

The other problem is that like all other Daemons the material universe is only a partial concern for the Daemon Primarchs, they may well be on their Daemon worlds contemplating their navels or fighting other Daemons for the glory of the Gods or playing chess for thousands of years at a time for all we know. Chaos is incomprehensible.

Most of the Daemon Primarchs have been whining and brooding on their Daemon Worlds. The only one who's really been active is Angron, who seems to go on a rampage at every opportunity.

Magnus did get his revenge on the wolfs but had to throw away most of his remaining legion to do it.

Yeah, Angron is pretty much the goto guy right now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The biggest issue is that the fluff indicates that Daemon Primarchs are still Daemon Princes and thus will never escape the bounds of their original mortality, which makes them less powerful than normal Greater Daemons. The Heresy fluff spent a long time building up a shining image in our heads of unbeatably powerful horrendous monstrosities, but giving us rules that can't beat an ordinary Bloodthirster in a fight feels like kind of a letdown.

The other problem is that like all other Daemons the material universe is only a partial concern for the Daemon Primarchs, they may well be on their Daemon worlds contemplating their navels or fighting other Daemons for the glory of the Gods or playing chess for thousands of years at a time for all we know. Chaos is incomprehensible.

That would be interesting, considering Primarchs even before ascension could crush Greater Daemons in combat (Both of the possible "Greatest of all Bloodthirsters", Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath the Unbound, were beaten in single combat by Primarchs).

Also, Angron, Daemon Primarch of Khorne, uses Bloodthirsters as his own personal retinue.

Daemon primarchs are undoubtedly stronger than standard Daemon princes since primarchs went toe to toe with greater daemons and mostly came out on top every time according to fluff.
Tabletop games just have a hard time Reflecting times without totally throwing balance out the window.

Angron is back in wh40k though. Forgeworld will release him in October I believe

 insaniak wrote:
The Primarchs of the 'big 4' Legions (Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus) actually used to be fieldable in Epic... or at least in it's previous guises as 'Space Marine' and 'Titan Legions'.

Angron is the only one who made it onto the table in 40K, and that was through a Black Gobbo or White Dwarf supplement... he was fairly lame.

Really? Were there official models for them?

 Crimson wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The Primarchs of the 'big 4' Legions (Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus) actually used to be fieldable in Epic... or at least in it's previous guises as 'Space Marine' and 'Titan Legions'.

Angron is the only one who made it onto the table in 40K, and that was through a Black Gobbo or White Dwarf supplement... he was fairly lame.

Really? Were there official models for them?

There were official models for them, and they were terrible:

I like how the model for Magnus the Red, is... Blue.

The models were released something like 12 years before even the Index Astartes articles. The Primarchs of Epic really aren't anything like those of today I doubt he was even known as Magnus the "Red" yet.

That doesn't make it any less ironic though.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I like how the model for Magnus the Red, is... Blue.

He has red hair...

 insaniak wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I like how the model for Magnus the Red, is... Blue.

He has red hair...

But only his barber knows for sure...

Magnus looks like something out of a third rate Ray Harryhausen imitator's portfolio.

The rules for them were also not that special really. They were basically like Greater Daemons in close combat potential, with a special ability tacked on. Magnus had the most useful, with a long range beam of power shot that was like a superior Volcano Cannon. Good for destroying super-heavies or Titans that had had their shields brought down by others. Fulgrim had the ability to temporarily take over a nearby enemy stand of infantry, making them fight on the Chaos side for one turn. Mortarion had a plague wind ability that was good at killing infantry, and the dead could then also infect other infantry so a potential chain reaction through infantry heavy hordes. Angron had the worst ability, a roar that made nearby enemies have to take the equivalent of a Ld test or fall back.

All in all, except for Magnus, their abilities were too short ranged to be reliably useful, and they were great fire magnets for the enemy.

Read Battle of the Fang.

My questions is what are Perturabo and Lorgar up to? They are also Daemon Primarchs but are not aligned to any of the gods, so I would imagine they are less tied into all the conflicts between the different chaos gods and thus more free to plan things based on their own personal goals.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
My questions is what are Perturabo and Lorgar up to? They are also Daemon Primarchs but are not aligned to any of the gods, so I would imagine they are less tied into all the conflicts between the different chaos gods and thus more free to plan things based on their own personal goals.

Petrurabo is sitting on his fortress in Medrengard doing absolutely nothing besides brooding about the Imperial Fists. Lorgar has been in a state of meditation on Sicarius for 10,000 years (though in the Eye of Terror I guess its only been a few centuries).

Basically:

-Angron: Daemon Prince who rampaged about the Imperium for quite a while until he was finally stopped at Armageddon/banished into the Warp where he currently is trapped
-Mortarion: Known to have fought the Grey Knights since the Heresy, probably is in the Warp waging the Great Game
-Magnus: Banished into the Warp during the Battle of the Fang. He probably is free by now though and being emo on the Planet of Sorcerers or waging the Great Game in the Warp.
-Fulgrim: On a hidden planet of eternal pleasure. Nobody (not even the Emperor's Children) know where it is
-Curze: Dead
-Alpharius/Omegon: If you look past the rather unsubtle mystery of his "death" at the hands of Guilliman, its clear his twin brother is still around and covertly leading the Alpha Legion somewhere. Or it could be Guilliman only killed an imposter, and both are still around.
-Perturabo: See above
-Lorgar: See above

Void__Dragon wrote:That would be interesting, considering Primarchs even before ascension could crush Greater Daemons in combat (Both of the possible "Greatest of all Bloodthirsters", Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath the Unbound, were beaten in single combat by Primarchs)

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:Daemon primarchs are undoubtedly stronger than standard Daemon princes since primarchs went toe to toe with greater daemons and mostly came out on top every time according to fluff.

They're usually shown as having gone toe to toe with Greater Deamons and just about came out on top, exhausted and having spent a hell of a lot of energy. It's not like Sanguinius effortlessly dispatched Ka'banda like a gretchin.

It would be more accurate to say that the Primarchs are SO powerful they could sometimes beat Greater Daemons.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:That would be interesting, considering Primarchs even before ascension could crush Greater Daemons in combat (Both of the possible "Greatest of all Bloodthirsters", Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath the Unbound, were beaten in single combat by Primarchs)

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:Daemon primarchs are undoubtedly stronger than standard Daemon princes since primarchs went toe to toe with greater daemons and mostly came out on top every time according to fluff.

They're usually shown as having gone toe to toe with Greater Deamons and just about came out on top, exhausted and having spent a hell of a lot of energy. It's not like Sanguinius effortlessly dispatched Ka'banda like a gretchin.

It would be more accurate to say that the Primarchs are SO powerful they could sometimes beat Greater Daemons.

And yet, Sanguinius was a primarch, not a deamon primarch. If a regular primarch could beat the most powerful of Bloodthirsters, a daemon primarch, which is more powerful than he was as a regular primarch, shouldn't have any issues.

Just because a guy is given Steroids, dosen't mean he won't have to pay for it in some way. What I mean by that is just because the guy got really muscular and buff, the model image of a male, dosen't mean his body will thank him for it later.

Stupid quote aside, if you gained control of an extremly powerful person who could take on you're greatest warriors and defeat them, but then swore fealty to you, would you immediately give them all the power you could immediately think of? No, because they would get too ambitious and then strive for you're spot in the Power game. IMHO, I believe the gods wanted the strength, smarts, fighting skills, etc of the Primarchs, but once you had a traitor under you're sway, how can you trust them to not betray you? If the Greater Daemons are the most powerful warriors of the Chaos Gods, and can be defeated by the Primarchs when they were loyal to the Emperor, why the hell would Chaos make them more powerful? If they became to powerful, they might even start eyeballing the God's thrones. There's an old saying, keep you're friends close, and you're enemies closer. Even if a Primarch is completely devoted to a Chaos God, they can still betray, afterall, they betrayed the Emperor and the other Primarchs. So what I beleive they did is although The Gods did bless the Primarchs for their services, they still don't fully trust them and thus made them more powerful, but not too much more powerful, so they are some of their best 'tools' they have at the ready, but if betrayed, not a problem, though no traitor Primarch has betrayed the God they are loyal to. (By this I mean the main 4)

I'll shut up now

Chaos Gods can whisk away a follower's power as they see fit. If one of their Daemon Prince minions ever attempted a coup, he'd immediately lose his Daemon Princedom. Then he's back to a regular Primarch. Though regular Primarchs are extremely powerful, they have little influence in the warp. I couldn't imagine a non Daemon Prince Primarch being a real threat to any individual Chaos God.

So the Gods don't really worry about making them too powerful.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Chaos Gods can whisk away a follower's power as they see fit. If one of their Daemon Prince minions ever attempted a coup, he'd immediately lose his Daemon Princedom. Then he's back to a regular Primarch. Though regular Primarchs are extremely powerful, they have little influence in the warp. I couldn't imagine a non Daemon Prince Primarch being a real threat to any individual Chaos God.

So the Gods don't really worry about making them too powerful.

Ah, right, I forgot about that... Well my point's invalid now XD

 ArbitorIan wrote:
They're usually shown as having gone toe to toe with Greater Deamons and just about came out on top, exhausted and having spent a hell of a lot of energy. It's not like Sanguinius effortlessly dispatched Ka'banda like a gretchin.

It would be more accurate to say that the Primarchs are SO powerful they could sometimes beat Greater Daemons.

Ka'Bhanda and An'ggrath, the two Greater Daemons in question, are the two most powerful Bloodthirsters (Whichever one holds the title depends on which book you're reading).

Primarchs beat them in combat, and Magnus the Red rather casually disposes of a Greater Daemon while in the Warp in A Thousand Sons.

Greater Daemons are not fodder to them, but on the whole, they are weaker.