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Well I can’t find the answer to this so I will try you guys out. A furioso librarian is armed with both a blood fist and a force weapon. When he attacks does he have to declare which one he is using? Such as use “this turn I will use the blood fist for S10… now this turn I will use the force weapon as a S6 force weapon.” Or does he receive the benefits of both. I always thought if you had two different close combat weapons you had to pick, like if you had a power weapon and a power fist. However a buddy of mine seems to think you get both. Anyone out there have any ideas.

You're right, you must declare which you are using, as each has a different statline and use. Wouldn't want to use the force weapon to pop a Land Raider, but if you're out of psychic points the Blood Fist will still inflict Instant Death on a lot of things.

So does that mean you can get the different advantages/disadvantages of different force weapons? Such as he would be S7, I1 if you gave him a force ax/halberd.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
So does that mean you can get the different advantages/disadvantages of different force weapons? Such as he would be S7, I1 if you gave him a force ax/halberd.

Seems so. C:BA Page 29; Wargear for the furioso librarian; Force weapon (see warhammer 40k rule book). Nothing in the FAQ about it. So its force weapon would follow the rules described on page 60 of the BRB and comes down to how its modeled on the FL Dread. Default would probably be the sword/dagger equivilant though.

Of course there are some who would claim modeling a Force Weapon to be different then the stock (for example, comes with a Force Sword, and you model a Force Axe) is MFA.

On a side note, this is one of the few times I do see it as being something of a WAAC move, since modeling it as an axe is done for a bonus to Strength with n penalties.

Happyjew wrote:
Of course there are some who would claim modeling a Force Weapon to be different then the stock (for example, comes with a Force Sword, and you model a Force Axe) is MFA.

On a side note, this is one of the few times I do see it as being something of a WAAC move, since modeling it as an axe is done for a bonus to Strength with n penalties.

Yup, it takes the hit to inititive just the same as anyone else I dont see it as MFA or WAAC anymore than a standard Librarian being altered. Funny thought though, force staff on a FL Dread would be awesome. LoL

 Bausk wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Of course there are some who would claim modeling a Force Weapon to be different then the stock (for example, comes with a Force Sword, and you model a Force Axe) is MFA.

On a side note, this is one of the few times I do see it as being something of a WAAC move, since modeling it as an axe is done for a bonus to Strength with n penalties.

Yup, it takes the hit to inititive just the same as anyone else I dont see it as MFA or WAAC anymore than a standard Librarian being altered. Funny thought though, force staff on a FL Dread would be awesome. LoL

Walkers and Monstrous Creatures are unaffected by Unwieldy. So you get a bonus to Strength and no Init hit

Happyjew wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Of course there are some who would claim modeling a Force Weapon to be different then the stock (for example, comes with a Force Sword, and you model a Force Axe) is MFA.

On a side note, this is one of the few times I do see it as being something of a WAAC move, since modeling it as an axe is done for a bonus to Strength with n penalties.

Yup, it takes the hit to inititive just the same as anyone else I dont see it as MFA or WAAC anymore than a standard Librarian being altered. Funny thought though, force staff on a FL Dread would be awesome. LoL

Walkers and Monstrous Creatures are unaffected by Unwieldy. So you get a bonus to Strength and no Init hit

*looks up all relevant pages. Finds it under Unwieldy*

Ahhh, well awesome. They still get the unwieldy rule when they model an axe but they are unaffected. Sweet. Well its still legal. Those people who claim its MFA would be incorrect IMO as its still the same points cost.

..because of the downside (drop in I) that you are avoiding. You get a strict bonus to ap and strength you would not get if you had not modelled to gain this advantage

Just out of interest, does the furioso blade not look like a halbard to you? To me it does look a bit like a poleaxe?

see b in the image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Halberds_3.png

nosferatu1001 wrote:
..because of the downside (drop in I) that you are avoiding. You get a strict bonus to ap and strength you would not get if you had not modelled to gain this advantage

Quick lets claim the same of Ironclads and their cheating chainfists!

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Just out of interest, does the furioso blade not look like a halbard to you? To me it does look a bit like a poleaxe?

see b in the image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Halberds_3.png

Far more like an axe than a sword. I'd use it as a force axe, as I looked at the model, and saw what it was armed with, as per the rules.

I agree, it definitely fits the description for a Force Axe, so yes, it's S7 AP2, with no Initiative penalty because it's a walker. Nice.

I wish the blood talons were as good though, loosing the ability to cut down terminators is killing me

Happyjew wrote:
Of course there are some who would claim modeling a Force Weapon to be different then the stock (for example, comes with a Force Sword, and you model a Force Axe) is MFA.

On a side note, this is one of the few times I do see it as being something of a WAAC move, since modeling it as an axe is done for a bonus to Strength with n penalties.

It's not really MFA if you your the stock plastic kit and it comes with the arm that looks like an force axe. I would think trying to replace that bit with some kind of sword is more MFA. IMHO I don't thing anyone can claim MFA when it comes to power weapons, the rules are designed for you to do that in this ed. MFA to me is more like using the wrong size base or using all kneeling models for less LOS.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Of course there are some who would claim modeling a Force Weapon to be different then the stock (for example, comes with a Force Sword, and you model a Force Axe) is MFA.

On a side note, this is one of the few times I do see it as being something of a WAAC move, since modeling it as an axe is done for a bonus to Strength with n penalties.

It's not really MFA if you your the stock plastic kit and it comes with the arm that looks like an force axe. I would think trying to replace that bit with some kind of sword is more MFA. IMHO I don't thing anyone can claim MFA when it comes to power weapons, the rules are designed for you to do that in this ed. MFA to me is more like using the wrong size base or using all kneeling models for less LOS.

If you try to replace it with a sword there would be no advantage though so no MFA.

As it is it looks though I'd say it's an axe.

I say the Furioso Force Weapon is a Halberd/Axe.

So +1Str, Ap2, and Unwieldy(which the Dread ignores)


You would not want to model it as a sword, because then its only AP3 with no Str bonus. The Axe is best if you ignore Unwieldy(which walkers and MCs do)

Looks like a force-knife (ie: counts as a sword) to me. Depends entirely on wether or not the weapon is considered the bladed part on the end, or the blade plus the pole you use to thread it through the arm slot for it.

Whats with all this MFA bs?

If for example you want a libby with a power fist, and there is not one in the current range you have to convert it.
Infact, tons of models do not come with the full choice of weapons in the codex.
If i have a choice of weapons for a model/unit, im going to choose the one that is the most effective.

MFA is altering size/height or the base of a model.

Arming a model with something it can legally have is not against any rules, its simply being smart.


The weapon on the dread looks like its an undefined type.
It has a long shaft on it, so its like a stave, but has a broad blade, which points towards an axe/sword/halberd.
Its simply a mash of weapon features and looks good.

I'd say use it as you like.

It's a glaive, it's mounted on a long pole. I think you could make a pretty good case for it being a force axe since halberds count as axes. It's probably something they should FAQ, though, because the sword/axe difference is HUGE for a walker.

Well since the model you have posted has the blade as far back as it can be modelled it doesn't give an accurate view.
It can be an inch or so further out making it more axe like.

Also since it can (from the look of it) be stabbed out and swung that makes it a poleaxe IMHO.

 Jackal wrote:
MFA is altering size/height or the base of a model.

Page reference please?

Strictly speaking whenever you build your model for an advantage (even if modelling legal wargear) you are in fact Modelling For Advantage.

The difference between strict MFA and what people call MFA comes down to intent. Unfortunately, you have to take someone's word as to the intent.

 Neorealist wrote:
Looks like a force-knife (ie: counts as a sword) to me. Depends entirely on wether or not the weapon is considered the bladed part on the end, or the blade plus the pole you use to thread it through the arm slot for it.

Compared to the size of the Dread its more knife size and shape. the hydraulic like mechanism its mounted on is pole like for sure but I dont see it extending out to, compared to the dreads size, pole length. I'd count ot as a knife/sword base. Make the blade a huge axe blade or extend the 'pole' its on and sure I'll agree its an axe/halberd.

 Bausk wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Looks like a force-knife (ie: counts as a sword) to me. Depends entirely on wether or not the weapon is considered the bladed part on the end, or the blade plus the pole you use to thread it through the arm slot for it.

Compared to the size of the Dread its more knife size and shape. the hydraulic like mechanism its mounted on is pole like for sure but I dont see it extending out to, compared to the dreads size, pole length. I'd count ot as a knife/sword base. Make the blade a huge axe blade or extend the 'pole' its on and sure I'll agree its an axe/halberd.

The angle on that picture makes it look smaller than it actually is.

Here's the blade with absolutely no extension of the shaft:



Note how long the blade edge actually is from the housing. That "knife" is a lot bigger than the GW images suggest.

The actual blade is also almost as wide as the housing itself:



I've put together 3 of the things and the blade isn't as small as you seem to think. I could easily see playing it as an axe/halberd.

Put together with the haft at full extension it comes out of the fore arm portion how far? half to3/4 of an inch? I'm not talking about the full length of the haft as the haft it self looks more like a piston, designed for a powerful stabbing motion not a overhead down ward sweep (which is wear a halberd and axes power comes from). IMO I would not accept it as either, if it was longer or larger then yes axe/halberd it is.

I realise we may be wandering a bit far from RAW here, but a blade the size of your fist 'is' a knife of some sort (typically). Scaled up in size to be carried by a gigantic walker? you'd easily end up with a big blade like you see in the other images in this thread.

I think the main question is if the blade is the weapon, or the blade 'and' the pole is the weapon. If the former? it probably counts as a sword. if the latter? it may count as an axe. I'm not honestly sure if there is any 100% way to be sure short of another FAQ update like they've done for so many other ambiguous weapons.

Agreed, and my earlier comment about modelling an axe, I never bothered to look at the actual model to see what it came with.

I assumed that the standard was a Force Sword, however, the weapon does appear to be halberd, and if my opponent ran it that way, I'd be fine with it.

 Neorealist wrote:
I think the main question is if the blade is the weapon, or the blade 'and' the pole is the weapon.

At least the article on designing the Librarian kit for the Furioso said the artist wanted to make it look like a dynamic weapon that can be extended and rotated as needed. It was published as they were releasing the new codex and models for BA, but I can't seem to find that article anymore.

Happyjew wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
MFA is altering size/height or the base of a model.

Page reference please?

Strictly speaking whenever you build your model for an advantage (even if modelling legal wargear) you are in fact Modelling For Advantage.

The difference between strict MFA and what people call MFA comes down to intent. Unfortunately, you have to take someone's word as to the intent.

Can you show me a page number where it talks about modeling for advantage?

Every time you put a piece of war gear on a model you are doing it for an advantage. If two things have different rules, and you choice one over the other you are doing it hoping to gain some sort of advantage. It does not matter if the different rules are deemed "balanced" to each other, you still modeled for advantage.

This MFA crap really needs to stop.

I disagree that MFA should not be discussed. I think some people have gotten on their high horse and proceeded to wag their genitals back and forth about it but there are some important aspects to it.

The idea of not being a dick about changing models to get the best advantage is something worth. The people talking about modeling astorath and dante with swords prior to the last faq set were MFA to change the intended abilities of the weapons. While on the other hand those going spare about models such as a sergent taking a power maul instead of a power axe in an assault squad were going a bit far because it was a valid option since it was not a special character.