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Pat 11th Company wrote:Let us know if you have any other suggestions. We want to make this better, but do realize we aren't funded by sponsors/Nova/MVB/Donors etc. This is all out of pocket, and all during our main tournament event of the year.

It was awesome!! Thanks for doing this and I hope you can again . Felt like I was there for the final game... so, so cool

Shin, hyve, this is a continuation of what we discussed after Throne of Skulls. ToS only had five rounds, but we had 2.5hrs for 1500pts, which was luxurious.

Yak and others also made the point that more time/smaller points opens up more armies as playable. Hyve, you chose not to run your nids because you found it difficult and stressful to try to play a full game with them at this points size, and I'm sure you weren't the only one. I'm sure many ork and other players felt the same. This format is awesome, but the tight schedule undoubtedly pushes a lot of players to play smaller, MEQ armies. Which reduces the variety seen at the event. The high preponderance of SW & GK armies undoubtedly wasn't just because they're strong, but because they can play relatively fast.

The proponents of the 2k points level often advocate it with the opinion that the game is more balanced at that level, and more armies can compete. But that doesn't seem to be what we're seeing; at least nt in these time constraints.

@targetawg:

Hey man, it's Andrew! You f'n cheater mccheatersoncheaterfaced me!

Just kidding, we all make mistakes, I read through the chat log and had a good laugh at it. Good lord the internet can be rough, apparently I'm a total scrub, and ALSO a cheat (it took me a bit to figure out what they were talking about during the chat log). During the same end turn, both of us dead tired, me on my 10th game in 2 days (not sure where you were at), I went to ground with Karamazov/Coteaz/1 DCA. I took my magnetized coteaz apart to represent this. Then you shot and killed him and the DCA. During my following turn, I moved karamazov (who had went to ground) and shot at your tervigon (and thank god, missed). In the chat log you're tervicheat, and I'm karacheat I think.

Or perhaps, in a not so sinister world, we were both just tired and forgetful while playing with our toy soldiers...

Don't take the log hard my friend, you played well and were a nice guy to chat with, I look forward to another game in the future!

Given the GK hype, that being my first game vs. GK, having gone 3-0 in the first place, facing the other 3-0 in our bracket, on camera, slowplay, plus knowing you'd been at the invitational and play regularly with with the NOVA crew, etc... - I was intimidated as hell. Maybe all that just made it more fun. Pressure and fatigue alway breeds mistakes: that's why military/police etc... practice relentlessly. As far as Karamazov, I just figured his "choose to pass/fail morale" meant he could just stand up and didn't question it. We had some good laughs - we both played hard - indeed looking forward to the next time. The logs don't bother me at all.

@Pat/11th

Chat logs are not captured. The tyranid player got to me before i saved his game and requested i copy them and email them to him, which i did. After looking over the email, i was some what dismayed on the chat entries. The chat was mostly unmonitored by us (we were logged in, but one of the judges would occasionally reply during games). We tried to reply on breaks.

I guess i can/should ask players if they want a copy of the chat logged before it is wiped between games.

I absolutely think the logs should be shared with the players on request, if not made available outright, as they are one of the few ways to get a quick rundown on critical moments of the match without having to watch through 2 hours of 4 arms waving on a green background. I was updating the chat room during last year's final day matches, and had a good idea what to expect. So much of this hobby at this level is built on internet relationships, I think it's important to allow players to see what is said about them and who is saying it in that venue. Theoretically it introduces some degree of responsibility to those chatting to not be complete trolls, and ultimately will help the players to have the critiques. I can pretty much guarantee I'll never forget the Tervigon rule again, and seeing comments like "... just wish he had looked at his codex more" are the sort of feedback I need to get better. There were some pretty brutal comments, but they really have no value from a critique standpoint so there's no reason to pay attention to them.

Thanks for saving it off and mailing it - and setting up and broadcasting, getting and setting up the mics etc... none of this would be possible without it. Thanks for letting me share my day with my family!

Warlocke, I gotta agree with the others that you're showing some pretty impressive grace under fire. Your attitude toward learning and grabbing any source of useful feedback is commendable too, especially the willingness to sift through the crap to find the nuggets of gold (okay, maybe copper).

I also think you've got an excellent point that keeping the logs makes folks a bit more accountable and hopefully less likely to spew venom.

I was very lucky to play on table 1 two times during the invitational. I didnt know I was going to be there, as my giant bald spot could have used a hat. I usually dont see myself from the top down.

Wireless mic's were doing well (sometimes too well, we audio taped one player taking a leak, the range was apparently greater than distance to restroom)

Guilty! I laughed kinda hard when watching the replay at the sound of the mike in the bathroom, so embarrassing!

Anyway, I second the saving of the chat logs. I had to watch the daemon game again to check my play mistakes, the chat log would have been so much easier. Though in hindsight the casino dice I brought were a pain the whole rest of the event (sorry Joe Johnson!), they did show up really well on the replay, enough so that I was able to see my rolls to determine if I was rolling bad or having selective recall.

My suggestion would be to have a dice section in a separate area. Right next to the 2 short table edges in a little channel would be fine. That way everyone would be able to see what was rolled a lot easier, and the dice could roll free without hitting models/terrain.

@Pat I would like to see the objectives at the botom of the screen (KP/Cap&cnt/Sieze). you did it with the game turn(most of the time) and the name of the player/what army they were playing so it shouldnt be that hard. +1 on going over the lists more indepth befor the matches and with talking about the game afterwords.

Whew! I finally got home.

I am dead tired and want to go to bed, but I have to wait for the air conditioning to get the house below 100 degrees.

Oh, and Pat, I would like to see the chat logs.

Watching some ustream vids now and I have to say this is a fantastic idea.

Of course there will always be some internet drama in the aftermath. People make mistakes, and when the game is being scrutinized by "backseat generals" there is going to be some tension. I'm not pointing any fingers...I have watched any games yet and even if mistakes are made I don't think you can call anyone a cheater after 2 days of hardcore gaming. People are tired and mistakes are bound to occur.

Overall I see this as a tool to help others with their own gameplay. Being able to see the pro's at work will give some really good insight for those wishing to improve their game and I would think actual REAL cheaters would be less inclined to blatantly do so knowing there are cameras on their game...you just can't get away with that kind of thing.

Thanks to all involved for allowing me to see some of these amazing battles all the way over here in Shanghai.


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Also loving the chat in your game vs Neil's GK. Looks like it was a fun game. I know I'm late to the party but hey...

lambadomy wrote:Most of the chat was ok, but if some of the chatters saw a rules violation or a mistake a few of them would get a little crazy...heaven forbid someone made two advantageous to them rules mistakes.

I thought the streams were great, a good job all around. What exactly is the computing power problem that makes streaming multiple games difficult? Is it just taking the Webcam feed and compressing it? I'm not sure I understand. I am not an expert on it though so I'm just wondering. I do currently work on mobile streaming systems for a living but it's using a lot of high end hardware so I'm just interested in it from a DIY standpoint where I have no experience.

I am not sure what the computing problem was. The laptops we had couldn't handle it. I run a Quad intel 1.8ghz with 4gig mem and a graphics card meant for gaming, i was occasionally having hiccups. Neil's desktop is newer and was handeling jsut fine.


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Grimgob wrote:@Pat I would like to see the objectives at the botom of the screen (KP/Cap&cnt/Sieze). you did it with the game turn(most of the time) and the name of the player/what army they were playing so it shouldnt be that hard. +1 on going over the lists more indepth befor the matches and with talking about the game afterwords.

good suggestion, problem with talking indept about the games was that i/we actually didn't see most games as we ourselves were playing our own games. One of the problems with the going over lists part, was that initially it was hard for us to get staff to tell us what was going on/ who was winning and the pairings etc. We will need to communicate better next time with MVB and staff.


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Blackmoor wrote:Whew! I finally got home.

I am dead tired and want to go to bed, but I have to wait for the air conditioning to get the house below 100 degrees.

Oh, and Pat, I would like to see the chat logs.

The chatlogs have to be manually copy and pasted at the end of each game before we save the game to Ustream. I do not have any logs except for the one i emailed to the tyranid player as he asked for them just in time for me to salvage them, sorry...

Shinkaze wrote:I think the Nova was well run especially when you consider the size of the undertaking and the challenges they faced. The terrain was a little crazy but I can't complain even though I was playing a very shooty GK army. I think many of the older books are much stronger with the Nova terrain and mission.

W/L is just not as good as MoV. It is alot more interesting and rewarding for people when they can score points. Tons of people were dropping on day 2 each round. I know some people were dropping because of the hurricane but still the drop rate is way higher in W/L. When the tightest game you have played in a long time is scored 15/15 out of 30 it is alot better than getting a loss and being taken out of the running. That being said I would still go to the Nova if I could afford to next year.

I would really like to see one of these 7-8 game events be set up over 3 days so that the rounds could be 150 or even 165 minutes and you could play a super tight game at a relaxed pace. There is a serious conflict between the amount of points we want to play with and the amount of time we are willing to spend. Having to wake up early and play super late blows, I want the time to go to dinner and hang out. Getting done late and having no options besides ordering pizza is lame. I go to these things because I am driven to compete but almost more importantly I go to hang with my buddies from around the USA. I would be willing to pay more for that level of relaxation, GTs are the only vacations I take.

Super +1 this.

I don't think I got back to my room Saturday night until like 8:30 or so and I had to leave early Sunday because of how late things were running that day. The tournament finishing at 7 was already pushing it for me since I had to pack up, drive home, check for any storm damage, and be up at 3am Monday morning for work. After starting 45+ minutes minutes late Sunday morning and then another 30-45 for the second round I just couldn't stay. Was discussing this with my wife on the drive home, we thought that starting it Friday might be a good idea if the 2000 point value stays. Play 2 Friday, 4 Saturday, and 2 Sunday so everyone can leave at a decent time. Or shrink it down to 1500, which I think I might like more.

Having said all of that though, I had a great time and I got to at least turn 5 on all of my games and there was only 1 that we didn't outright finish before time was up and that game got to turn 5.

DevianID wrote:I was very lucky to play on table 1 two times during the invitational. I didnt know I was going to be there, as my giant bald spot could have used a hat. I usually dont see myself from the top down.

Wireless mic's were doing well (sometimes too well, we audio taped one player taking a leak, the range was apparently greater than distance to restroom)

Guilty! I laughed kinda hard when watching the replay at the sound of the mike in the bathroom, so embarrassing!

This is hilarious . You only live once, right?

Blackmoor wrote:Whew! I finally got home.

I am dead tired and want to go to bed, but I have to wait for the air conditioning to get the house below 100 degrees.

Oh, and Pat, I would like to see the chat logs.

You didn't miss much.

• Some guys said you were overly cheery at the beginning.
• They said your Aegis/Psyhood argument was BS.
• One guy said he thought you had the game won on turn 2.
• Other people said they thought Tony had it won when he disembarked all his Wolf Guard at once.
• They kept asking if you didn't already destroy different Rhinos/Razorbacks of Tony or whether or not stunned rhinos of his were moving without extra armor or not.
• Someone brought up that Tony was playing Njal's ability wrong.
• They complained about the NOVA's FAQ in regards to rolling to hit with JotWW.
• People were amazed at Tony's ability to roll saves at the end of the game.
• They were amazed by you failing all your saves and JotWW rolls on the last turn.
• They thought you gave up on Turn 6 when the game failed to end and questioned your last turn moves.


And that was about it!

Hah Brad I also watched our replay and noticed a sound of bathroom activities on the recording for a second. Well done
I wish I thought of it first. Also watched your game against Tony, well played. I didn't get to see much of it in person even though I was on the table next to you guys.
It would have been interesting to see the chat logs during our game also. But, we didn't tell Pat, so our bad. But thanks to Pat and his guys for setting everything up and being there the whole time.
I really enjoyed re-watching some of my games and then watching the GT when I got home.

yakface wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Whew! I finally got home.

I am dead tired and want to go to bed, but I have to wait for the air conditioning to get the house below 100 degrees.

Oh, and Pat, I would like to see the chat logs.

You didn't miss much.

• Some guys said you were overly cheery at the beginning.
• They said your Aegis/Psyhood argument was BS.
• One guy said he thought you had the game won on turn 2.
• Other people said they thought Tony had it won when he disembarked all his Wolf Guard at once.
• They kept asking if you didn't already destroy different Rhinos/Razorbacks of Tony or whether or not stunned rhinos of his were moving without extra armor or not.
• Someone brought up that Tony was playing Njal's ability wrong.
• They complained about the NOVA's FAQ in regards to rolling to hit with JotWW.
• People were amazed at Tony's ability to roll saves at the end of the game.
• They were amazed by you failing all your saves and JotWW rolls on the last turn.
• They thought you gave up on Turn 6 when the game failed to end and questioned your last turn moves.


And that was about it!

That is awesome!

Al I recommend not going back and watching your game. It just makes you sick to your stomach.

Either way you should be proud on what you accomplished. Keeping it together for 8+ games is tough.

yakface wrote:

You didn't miss much.

• Some guys said you were overly cheery at the beginning.
• They said your Aegis/Psyhood argument was BS.
• One guy said he thought you had the game won on turn 2.
• Other people said they thought Tony had it won when he disembarked all his Wolf Guard at once.
• They kept asking if you didn't already destroy different Rhinos/Razorbacks of Tony or whether or not stunned rhinos of his were moving without extra armor or not.
• Someone brought up that Tony was playing Njal's ability wrong.
• They complained about the NOVA's FAQ in regards to rolling to hit with JotWW.
• People were amazed at Tony's ability to roll saves at the end of the game.
• They were amazed by you failing all your saves and JotWW rolls on the last turn.
• They thought you gave up on Turn 6 when the game failed to end and questioned your last turn moves.


And that was about it!

Hehe, yeah pretty much. There was also some discussion about your Grand Strategy choice; discussion regarding the clumping of the interceptors (was it a gambit to keep shots away from paladins, a mistake, etc); some discussion on whether murderous hurricane rolls to hit; some discussion about not using dreads aegis to its fullest; a few comments regarding what each player should do at that time (mostly toward blackmoor for some reason); lotta folks trying to decide who had quarters and then objectives (is Njal in that squad? etc).

I'm definitely glad I had an opportunity to volunteer with Mike and everyone else to make the NOVA such a huge success. It was a lot of work, but I met a lot of incredible people and definitely plan on getting more involved in the 40K community. Best part for me was paint judging all the incredible armies that people brought, and reffing the Invitational games on Friday. Everyone was a real pleasure to work with, and Mike did an astounding job of running the tournament and making sure everyone had a good experience. John Moore (the 40K TO and head of operations) worked tirelessly to get the grunt work done, and special recognition should go to Kevin and Rachel for the monumental task of running the bracket system and dealing with player drops and other unusual circumstances.

I'm glad the guy liked his 0-8 trophy.

Did Nova's FAQ require JoTWW to roll to hit?

Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:
I'm glad the guy liked his 0-8 trophy.

Its going to be sitting at my lgs. among the ard boys finals hammer, the various other trophies, the 3 golden demon awards, will sit the 0-8 trophy.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Did Nova's FAQ require JoTWW to roll to hit?

Nope, because whether or not you roll to hit for JotWW it makes no difference on how the power is resolved. Or in other words, JotWW uses a totally distinct method of determining how models are hit, just like a template weapon.

yakface wrote:
• People were amazed at Tony's ability to roll saves at the end of the game.

They were not the only ones who were amazed by it.

• They were amazed by you failing all your saves and JotWW rolls on the last turn.

I wish it surprised me, but it didn't.

• They thought you gave up on Turn 6 when the game failed to end and questioned your last turn moves.

Either he went for the objectives on turn #6 or he didn't. That is what was going to determine who will win. In hindsight the correct move was to move a dreadnaught to within 3" of the objective but I didn't.


Tony and I played in the Invitational on Friday night as well. I will not say that he got lucky, but I will say that I got very unlucky. I had 2 5-man paladin squads charge grey hunters and I got my rear handed to me. I ended up totally whiffing a lot of attacks (in both combats) and I killed about 2 guys, and he attacked back and butchered me. The only thing that saved me was that when I failed me leadership he managed to catch me (doing ever more wounds, but at least I did not get escorted off of the board). I ended up winning the combat though in the next round and Draigo and 3 wounded paladins advanced to a rhino with guys in it. Now this rhino was previously immobilized but he managed to repair it, and it had it's storm bolter shot off, so I unloaded my whole army into 1 rhino and did about 7 penetrating hits to it and all I did was rolls 1s and 2s for damage. So I was unable to charge the contents and was gunned down.

I guess he thought my luck might be different because in our finals game Tony was in no hurry to get into assault with me. In fact I do not think that we had one single assault.


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winterman wrote:
There was also some discussion about your Grand Strategy choice;

They were right there. That is where I screwed up and it cost me the game. I have to make my units troops in games where objectives are ahead of kill points.

discussion regarding the clumping of the interceptors (was it a gambit to keep shots away from paladins, a mistake, etc);

I thought I was out of LOS from the Long Fangs. When I looked at it from a models-eye-view he can just barely see the edge of a shoulder pad. My guys are in scenic resin bases that are higher than GWs bases by about a 1/4 of an inch and that base cost me.

Eidolon wrote:Its going to be sitting at my lgs. among the ard boys finals hammer, the various other trophies, the 3 golden demon awards, will sit the 0-8 trophy.

Glad to see it found a good home!

It seems events are adding more games each year and some are increasing points levels also. It's a great hobby and fun to get a bunch of games in on a weekend. I rarely have had or seen issues between players, but moods definitely change when you hear "30 minutes left" and you're starting turn 4. People will often get loose, sloppy, or forgetful when they're sweating the last few minutes as we saw on camera a couple times.

I wonder if surveyed, would the NOVA attendees prefer fewer points or less games over the current format? Is more games worth potential frustration of individual game results that were decided by a time limit instead of random game length.

I've played Nids for a year and GK for 4 months and I can tell you my GK games finish much more quickly. As a result, I tend to make less mistakes and am generally more relaxed and less stressed when playing my GK because I go into the game knowing I don't need to rush. How fast can you play a game and still enjoy it for the hobby it is?

I'm not saying there's any faults with NOVA's schedule, just wondering how feedback will effect next year's schedule. I think every single player that's commented has mentioned how 8+ games is draining and/or how tired they were on day 2. Whether there are changes or just minor tweaks to the system, this event is high on my wish lists for tournament travel if timing a cash flow are more favorable next year.

I'd prefer fewer games. Lower points kills alot more builds than it opens up. When you think about it, with the number of 200 point characters now being used to unlock army abilities, most armies are in the the 1500 point range, with the character and 1 more unit/vehicle.

Lower the points, there goes the character, there goes the viability of the build. At 1500, I don't take Logan, Eldard, or Pedro. In the end, I take a vanilla Marine list with a librarian. By closing down variablity in builds, the game ends up become more cookie cutter, and at that point, why not throw a chess tournament.

Yes it is a pain with horde armies. I used to run a black guardian heavy Ulthwe army....it was annoying not just moving, but also packing up. If you are going to bring a horde, you should be experienced enough to be able to play fast.


How about this idea......Someone should invent a GW clock, similar to a chess clock. Turn 1, I start my clock. I move. I shoot. I assault.My assault phase ends, I turn off my clock, my opponent runs his until the end of his assault phase, and so on.

Both clocks allow you 2.5 hours of play time. Let's say for some reason, at the end of turn 4 you are out of time, while your opponent has 1 hour left. Guess who is not moving or shooting anymore? This eliminates slowhammer, and ensures both parties get the same amount of time to play.

For a major event, 3 days also does not seem out of the question, but you have to take into account rent of the space etc.

KGatch113 wrote:
How about this idea......Someone should invent a GW clock, similar to a chess clock. Turn 1, I start my clock. I move. I shoot. I assault.My assault phase ends, I turn off my clock, my opponent runs his until the end of his assault phase, and so on.

Both clocks allow you 2.5 hours of play time. Let's say for some reason, at the end of turn 4 you are out of time, while your opponent has 1 hour left. Guess who is not moving or shooting anymore? This eliminates slowhammer, and ensures both parties get the same amount of time to play.

Game is not balanced around or designed for equal play. Most phases are interactive so all this does is shifting slowplay to your opponents phases. I play orks and the turn I Waaaagh and assault will be a single long assault phase but both players are rolling attacks. If I am penalized and lose future turns for that, it has broken the game. My army needs that assault to be effective, and a marine army is balanced to withstand the assault. This also shifts the meta further in favor for a defensive shooty army as you never have to worry about tactical movement or long assaults on your phases.

I don't think I would play in an event with a chess-timer 'equal time' model. Not all long phases are slow play... Slow play is like porn, we can't define it but we know it when we see it.

I play Orks and the only armies that have slow played me consistantly are gaurd and tau. It dosent't take that long for target priority and we all know what happens to an assaulty army that only gets to turn 3 or 4 against IG and Tau.

Could turn the clocks off after charges and let combat and resolution be a freebie -- one can still sandbag (ok so how am I gonna allocate, hmmmmm) but most slow play (intentional or accidenetal) takes place in the move and shooting. Assaults just suck time regardless.

Also nothing says the clocks have to work like chess -- could just be a tool to determine if someone is slow playing for TOs and so slower players know they need to up the pace.

That all said, I agree with others that 40k is not really the place for a chess style clock. Better to set a reasonable time and point level in my opinion.

@MVB when are you guys going to post all the seed/placing/armies data?

I had a great time helping out Mike with judging and 11th Company with the podcast. If you haven't had a chance to help run a tournament I highly recommend it. You would be amazed at how much effort goes on behind the scenes to get things running as smoothly as they did.

Loved the live feed! Love the dramatic aftermath!

Mannahnin wrote:Shin, hyve, this is a continuation of what we discussed after Throne of Skulls. ToS only had five rounds, but we had 2.5hrs for 1500pts, which was luxurious.

Yak and others also made the point that more time/smaller points opens up more armies as playable. Hyve, you chose not to run your nids because you found it difficult and stressful to try to play a full game with them at this points size, and I'm sure you weren't the only one. I'm sure many ork and other players felt the same. This format is awesome, but the tight schedule undoubtedly pushes a lot of players to play smaller, MEQ armies. Which reduces the variety seen at the event. The high preponderance of SW & GK armies undoubtedly wasn't just because they're strong, but because they can play relatively fast.

The proponents of the 2k points level often advocate it with the opinion that the game is more balanced at that level, and more armies can compete. But that doesn't seem to be what we're seeing; at least nt in these time constraints.

I agree with this comment fully.
I will not go cross country to any tournament and spend a lot of money knowing that I can not finish a game at the allotted time period given for a game above the 1500 point army list. I want to finish my game. I do not want to win or lose because we are out of time.
Winning in this manner cheapens the win to me and losing in this manner annoys the hell out of me as well.

2.5 hours for a 1500 point game is awesome. There is plenty of time in playing against your opponent. The chances of nerd rage are reduced (IMHO) due to the time allotment allowed. There is plenty of time to think and to relax and enjoy the game.

And that is when I'll spend lots of money at a quality ran tournament, which generally means lost of partying afterwards with people that I do not know and hopefully will make new found friends. That to me is what a tournament is all about.

In response to Mannahnin and Adam Longwalker regarding the time constraints. For the NOVA Invitational we had 2 hours for each 1750 game, I had no issues with the time. My first game finish with 30 minutes free, my second finished with about 20 minutes left. My third game we got through 5 turns then the judge stopped us at the end of our 5th(for fun I rolled it and it would not have kept going). My fourth game finished with 40 mins left, my last game ended on turn 5. I ran into foot angels, deathwing, eldar, GKs and Mechguard. I honestly dont think you need more than 2 hours for 1750 points. Two adequate players who know their rules can get a game done in less than 2 hours if they are a playing to their best abilities without slow playing. For 2000 points 2.5 hours is easily enough time. I know people who play orks, nids and other larger armies. But During the invitational there was a full mechguard player who got his rounds finished. There was multiple foot armies that finished their games. I really dont think two good players who know their rules wont finish. I have yet to not finish a turn 5 in the past year of playing in tournaments against dozens of armies. Sure, it would be cool to have 2.5 hours for the invitational, you wouldn't have to play efficiently and quickly. But that isn't realistic for a 5 game competition. If you know all of your rules, and every other army, the games go quick.