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Im hoping that there is something in 6th(which seems prety likely soon) will have some knid of changes that balance out grey knights. Maybe something like taking model count into consideration or new rapid fire rules to give other armies a boast. Something more punidhing them perals might balance them out.

Probably the very opposite.
If rumors are true about less vehicle heavy builds being put forward (hope) then it will benefit the GK.

Same goes for certain special characters nobody used now like Mordrak, completely useless in todays vehicle park meta men might work wonders in an infantry heavy dito.

The rumor of HQs being able to snipe in shooting are also beneficial to GK, finally those super expensive psycannon options for captains and masters will start making sense.

Isseyfaran wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I have 2 years of wargaming experience. I can tell you that they're not, but it's not going to matter, because I don't back my statement up.

Then what's your point of posting?

Sarcasm, my friend, sarcasm.

So the general consensus is that grey knights are over-powered. Mind you they can still be beat but it usually takes a better player and/or a favorable mission/dice rolling. I just hope they dont try to nix them to much with 6th edition and do what they did to fantasy. R.I.P. both of my undead armies and daemons still found a way to be uber powerful.

Grey knights are powerfull op maybe. They arnt point and click simple they take some knowegle to play. Here comes another mtg refernce control decks are often incredably powerfull but few players are good with control beacuse it takes time to master and is expensive to buy. Grey knights take time to master they unlike control are cheap and thats why there everywhere. I still think that the greyknights is a 6th edition codex and meant to be balanced in the next edition I dont think im right but i hope so.


Ive only been playing scince 5th has gw ever put faq out to change the costs of upgades to weaken a book like has been described in this fourm before?

To my knowledge that has never happened.

EDIT.

I am wrong. It did happen to the cost of Storm Shields for Black Templar. This happened simultaneously with them being brought in line with the newer Storm Shield wording.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I have 2 years of wargaming experience. I can tell you that they're not, but it's not going to matter, because I don't back my statement up.

Then what's your point of posting?

Sarcasm, my friend, sarcasm.

And here I was thinking you were making a point, about being claiming thing with no proof.

Khardrock11 wrote:Grey knights are powerfull op maybe. They arnt point and click simple they take some knowegle to play. Here comes another mtg refernce control decks are often incredably powerfull but few players are good with control beacuse it takes time to master and is expensive to buy. Grey knights take time to master they unlike control are cheap and thats why there everywhere. I still think that the greyknights is a 6th edition codex and meant to be balanced in the next edition I dont think im right but i hope so.


Ive only been playing scince 5th has gw ever put faq out to change the costs of upgades to weaken a book like has been described in this fourm before?

Only in a very few select cases to my knowledge;
- 3rd ed had the Dark Angels & Dark Eldar '2nd printing' books which fiddled with outa-wack pts costs, (because most units were insanely over-costed), while Dark Eldar also recieved their missing vehicle upgrades that were never in the originaly printing!

- 6th ed Fantasy saw a Dark Elf re-giggling which I believe *might* have led also to a second printing of the book?! (or else it stayed as downloadable PDF)
Again, same reason as before since the army book itself sucked so much @$$ the army was laughed off the table without a single dice being rolled! Even with some re-costing that wasbasicaly all lowering pts costs of grossly ineffective units, Dark Elves were still pretty pants in 6th. (then they got stupid-powerfull in 7th and are still a top contender currently!)

- 4th ed Templars & Dark Angels have both recived faq's qhich have altered alot of the equipment rules to bring them into line with the newer marine books. A few pts costs, (mainly storm shields), have also been increased to take into account their new effectiveness.



Still, I highly doubt GW is going to do too much to nerf GK's in the 6th ed since they're an amazing cashcow! What I'd more worried about is the changes that are supposed to balance GK's don't do much overall and instead, one or two other armies get slaped silly with a nerf bat they don't really need... (look at what happened to undead in 8th )

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade here, but I predict that one day this forum will see a thread entitled thus:

"Codex Gretchin is the most overpowered book GW has ever done."

Then again, I remember the snotling gun that people used to shoot at titans

Noir wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I have 2 years of wargaming experience. I can tell you that they're not, but it's not going to matter, because I don't back my statement up.

Then what's your point of posting?

Sarcasm, my friend, sarcasm.

And here I was thinking you were making a point, about being claiming thing with no proof.

That's because I did; by using sarcasm.

Well, after battling GK a few times, twice in an RTT two days ago, I found that GK are rather scary. I mainly play mech Eldar. Psycannon can ruin my day if they target my Serpents and Dreadknights are not easy to stop with their teleporters and scout move thanks to grand strategy.

It appears that GK is the most powerful MEQ codex that appeared during the last decade. The only MEQ codex on par was the 3.5 ed CSM codex which I found was the best codex so far.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, after battling GK a few times, twice in an RTT two days ago, I found that GK are rather scary. I mainly play mech Eldar. Psycannon can ruin my day if they target my Serpents and Dreadknights are not easy to stop with their teleporters and scout move thanks to grand strategy.

It appears that GK is the most powerful MEQ codex that appeared during the last decade. The only MEQ codex on par was the 3.5 ed CSM codex which I found was the best codex so far.

I'd say that BA's DoA is also quite a handfull for alot of lists simply because those assault squads can all pack cheap meltas + inferno pistols and easily land within range of all your vehicles with very little risk.

Experiment 626 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, after battling GK a few times, twice in an RTT two days ago, I found that GK are rather scary. I mainly play mech Eldar. Psycannon can ruin my day if they target my Serpents and Dreadknights are not easy to stop with their teleporters and scout move thanks to grand strategy.

It appears that GK is the most powerful MEQ codex that appeared during the last decade. The only MEQ codex on par was the 3.5 ed CSM codex which I found was the best codex so far.

I'd say that BA's DoA is also quite a handfull for alot of lists simply because those assault squads can all pack cheap meltas + inferno pistols and easily land within range of all your vehicles with very little risk.

The difference is cost and the ability to be multi-purpose. DoA might do okay against certain mech builds but it gets destroyed by non mech builds. Nids could eat them for lunch. Never lost to a DoA list to date... actually to think about it I have only lost to one blood angels army and it was against a friend and I was out of the running so it was a really lax game, aka I assaulted him with guard. lol! I have lost to grey knights though.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Khardrock11 wrote:Grey knights are powerfull op maybe. They arnt point and click simple they take some knowegle to play. Here comes another mtg refernce control decks are often incredably powerfull but few players are good with control beacuse it takes time to master and is expensive to buy. Grey knights take time to master they unlike control are cheap and thats why there everywhere. I still think that the greyknights is a 6th edition codex and meant to be balanced in the next edition I dont think im right but i hope so.


Ive only been playing scince 5th has gw ever put faq out to change the costs of upgades to weaken a book like has been described in this fourm before?

Only in a very few select cases to my knowledge;
- 3rd ed had the Dark Angels & Dark Eldar '2nd printing' books which fiddled with outa-wack pts costs, (because most units were insanely over-costed), while Dark Eldar also recieved their missing vehicle upgrades that were never in the originaly printing!

- 6th ed Fantasy saw a Dark Elf re-giggling which I believe *might* have led also to a second printing of the book?! (or else it stayed as downloadable PDF)
Again, same reason as before since the army book itself sucked so much @$$ the army was laughed off the table without a single dice being rolled! Even with some re-costing that wasbasicaly all lowering pts costs of grossly ineffective units, Dark Elves were still pretty pants in 6th. (then they got stupid-powerfull in 7th and are still a top contender currently!)

- 4th ed Templars & Dark Angels have both recived faq's qhich have altered alot of the equipment rules to bring them into line with the newer marine books. A few pts costs, (mainly storm shields), have also been increased to take into account their new effectiveness.



Still, I highly doubt GW is going to do too much to nerf GK's in the 6th ed since they're an amazing cashcow! What I'd more worried about is the changes that are supposed to balance GK's don't do much overall and instead, one or two other armies get slaped silly with a nerf bat they don't really need... (look at what happened to undead in 8th )

i dont think their a cash cow with low model count all you need is 1 finecast and 20 termies not bad

I disagree, only needing 50 or so models makes everyone play them for convenience and power. So yea you might sell less total models to each player but if 80% of people pick them up then it's still incredibly profitable. Plus, rules aside they have some of the best kits to date which means modelers like me will buy the kit just for parts.

Do we really need to keep harping on the GK codex? Isn't every new codex "the most powerful ever"? We will see a list that can beat the Grey Knights, then the next new codex will be the "most overpowered".

experiment 626 Wrote:

Still, I highly doubt GW is going to do too much to nerf GK's in the 6th ed since they're an amazing cashcow! What I'd more worried about is the changes that are supposed to balance GK's don't do much overall and instead, one or two other armies get slaped silly with a nerf bat they don't really need... (look at what happened to undead in 8th )

Cash cow? Depends on did it bring more people to the hobby or not.

Quote from ICv2's article "Games Had Hot Summer" that was posted on their site on 11-1-11

Games Workshop, the leader in the non-collectible miniatures category, had a rough summer, with quality issues on its new Finecast resin line, spotty supply, and shorter solicitation cycles all affecting sales. Meanwhile, Privateer continued steps to shore up its backlist availability, and coupled with GW’s problems, was picking up customers.

GK are not a cash cow. They did not increase the customer base. According to the article they lost customer base (IMHO) by their shoddy practices. If they did get any profit from the release, it came from those people who are already within their shrinking customer base and are willing to buy another army.

You can look at the entire article here.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/21399.html

As far the "Top 5 Non-Collectible Miniature Lines--Summer 2011" is posted here.
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/21404.html

DoctorZombie wrote:Do we really need to keep harping on the GK codex? Isn't every new codex "the most powerful ever"? .

No. Dark Eldar never received nearly as much criticism for being overpowered. If anything, many players complained about their favorite combos being nurfed.

hemingway wrote:

DoctorZombie wrote:Do we really need to keep harping on the GK codex? Isn't every new codex "the most powerful ever"? .

No. Dark Eldar never received nearly as much criticism for being overpowered. If anything, many players complained about their favorite combos being nurfed.

IMHO Dark Eldar is one of the better balanced codex out right now.

Admittedly, I've not fought against them yet. However, the only time necrons seem to be getting complained about really do seem to be people who can't adapt to a change or two.

Well, that and stuff that'll be fixed in FAQs....

All I can say about GK is that they can do a lot of things really well that make a lot of other players probably really jealous when they compare similar elements of their armies with GK.

As I've posted earlier, being a long time craftworld Eldar player, I have a MUCH easier time winning with GK than I do with Eldar but I still win with Eldar all the time, it just takes more thinking and skill where as with GK I can just move models, point and click, basically.

GK are a VERY solid and strong army and players will have to shift their army builds appropriately to deal with them, I guess. I personally go for an ultra balanced all comers list so I never find myself unable to deal with any army in particular but I think that a lot of other armies tend to overload in one aspect of the game and not do so well against GK armies that counter their weaknesses.

Take Longfang/RB spam GK, they prob won't do too well against Draigo Wing. Hydra/Manticore spam IG prob will do OK until the Vendettas go down and their melta vets get shot out of their Chimeras but even so, they will prob have a problem too so it is just a case of rock paper scissors. Try to have a bit of all 3 in your list and you'll do fine. Too many armies are built with too much rock, paper or scissors IMO.

mortetvie wrote:All I can say about GK is that they can do a lot of things really well that make a lot of other players probably really jealous when they compare similar elements of their armies with GK.

As I've posted earlier, being a long time craftworld Eldar player, I have a MUCH easier time winning with GK than I do with Eldar but I still win with Eldar all the time, it just takes more thinking and skill where as with GK I can just move models, point and click, basically.

GK are a VERY solid and strong army and players will have to shift their army builds appropriately to deal with them, I guess. I personally go for an ultra balanced all comers list so I never find myself unable to deal with any army in particular but I think that a lot of other armies tend to overload in one aspect of the game and not do so well against GK armies that counter their weaknesses.

Take Longfang/RB spam GK, they prob won't do too well against Draigo Wing. Hydra/Manticore spam IG prob will do OK until the Vendettas go down and their melta vets get shot out of their Chimeras but even so, they will prob have a problem too so it is just a case of rock paper scissors. Try to have a bit of all 3 in your list and you'll do fine. Too many armies are built with too much rock, paper or scissors IMO.

Another thing that ruins grey knights is there ability to wipe an opponent off the board with relative ease. Countless players have stopped playing or refuse to play against grey knights. Hell some grey knight players get heckled on sight. As goatboy said in his recent blog. GK = No Fun for at least one of the players!

Tomb King wrote:

Another thing that ruins grey knights is there ability to wipe an opponent off the board with relative ease.

Here we are discussing whether that is really true or not. Some kind of justification or argument would be nice.

Countless players have stopped playing or refuse to play against grey knights.

A meaningless statement that doesn't prove anything.....besides that some people give up waaay to easily

Hell some grey knight players get heckled on sight.

Now that is just childish. Do these hecklers do this to "old school" Grey Knights players as well? And how do they tell the "old school" from the bandwagon-jumpers?

As goatboy said in his recent blog. GK = No Fun for at least one of the players!

Well, I guess it must be true then......or it is simply the opinion of one vocal person on a blog.




I don't disagree with the general sentiment that Grey Knights are rather good. I wouldn't even argue too hard against that they are indeed OP.
But these kinds of unsubstantiated blanket statements doesn't prove anything, nor promote discussion.

Tomb King wrote:
Another thing that ruins grey knights is there ability to wipe an opponent off the board with relative ease. Countless players have stopped playing or refuse to play against grey knights. Hell some grey knight players get heckled on sight. As goatboy said in his recent blog. GK = No Fun for at least one of the players!

Well, my friends and I have had to house rule most of the codex just so my Daemons can stand a fighting chance because I don't really want to use a fateweaver list every single game...

I can't believe this thread is still up.

40k is a slow metagame and takes time to change eventually there will be a list that beats gk.

Wow... this thread is borderlining epic...

Here's my take... (forgive my stream of conscious style).

Who CARES if GK (or any army) is OP or not! (disclaimer: I don't play GK nor any army of the imperium)

The real question should be: How to I design MY ARMY of choice to combat against other popular builds?

I'd be more interested in engaging a veteran GK player and ask what units/strategy/gear are sucessful against GK.

--- And I can't BELIEVE no one mentioned putting a Farseer in an Eldar list. That one guy alone essentially turns GK into an expensive marine list.

I play DE and Orks.... played against numerous flavors of GK builds in tourny and FLGS gamenight.

And I only lost to GK once... I was playing a standard KanWall list with loaded looters. I didn't know about that long ass'ed flamer that DreadKnights can use... needless to say, it was a short game .

Other than that, I'd just treat them like other "specialized" marine lists, like BT and DeathWing DA lists.

So... again, whenever a new codex is released (Hello Necrons!!!) I'd advocate that we all engage those players who used the new codexes and ask what units/strategy/gear are sucessful against the new codex.

Then, adjust your list accordingly... then the next time you play, it's a TAC list that can have "some sort of answer" against other popular builds.

Just my 2-cent....

ps. I like how civil this thread is... Keep it up!

whembly wrote:Wow... this thread is borderlining epic...

Here's my take... (forgive my stream of conscious style).

Who CARES if GK (or any army) is OP or not! (disclaimer: I don't play GK nor any army of the imperium)

The real question should be: How to I design MY ARMY of choice to combat against other popular builds?

I'd be more interested in engaging a veteran GK player and ask what units/strategy/gear are sucessful against GK.

--- And I can't BELIEVE no one mentioned putting a Farseer in an Eldar list. That one guy alone essentially turns GK into an expensive marine list.

I play DE and Orks.... played against numerous flavors of GK builds in tourny and FLGS gamenight.

And I only lost to GK once... I was playing a standard KanWall list with loaded looters. I didn't know about that long ass'ed flamer that DreadKnights can use... needless to say, it was a short game .

Other than that, I'd just treat them like other "specialized" marine lists, like BT and DeathWing DA lists.

So... again, whenever a new codex is released (Hello Necrons!!!) I'd advocate that we all engage those players who used the new codexes and ask what units/strategy/gear are sucessful against the new codex.

Then, adjust your list accordingly... then the next time you play, it's a TAC list that can have "some sort of answer" against other popular builds.

Just my 2-cent....

ps. I like how civil this thread is... Keep it up!

I admire your approach and normally it works. The issue people run into is the amount of competitive builds grey knights can bring. The same build that might topple purifiers might have trouble with draigowing or inquistor razorspam. There is no true all comers list against this army, they have too many successful variables that they could be running. While on the subject, people usually build assault heavy or shooting heavy. When you run up against grey knights it is quite possible regardless of which you chose that they are better at both. I have a friend that plays space wolves and he likes to run a mix of both but grey knights are then better on both front as the grenades and psychic powers to boost it can lead to his little puppies and scouts not even swinging before dying.

The heckling I spoke of above is more or so friendly. Kind of like come on man. We dont shun them but it is like someone showing up with fatecrusher every week. You can beat it but its going to be a boring game and you might have to tailor to that build. You can build a list to beat grey knights but then get stomped by half the other armies out there. That is why they are overpowered. The amount of competitive builds in the GK book is more then any other codex. sigh... why bother this is like trying to convince someone that has an inability to comprehend the big picture. One of the grey knight characters that is playable LIVES IN THE WARP! Oh look, Draigo's on vacation from the warp to curb stomp my not daemon army.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/12/goatboys-40k-im-done-with-grey-knights.html

Tomb King wrote:You can beat it but its going to be a boring game and you might have to tailor to that build. You can build a list to beat grey knights but then get stomped by half the other armies out there. That is why they are overpowered. The amount of competitive builds in the GK book is more then any other codex. sigh... why bother this is like trying to convince someone that has an inability to comprehend the big picture.

I entirely disagree with you. A true take all comers list should for a start be able to deal with:

-DE Venom Spam
-Razor Spam
-DoA
-All Terminator Armies (ala Deathwing)
-AV12/13 spam
-Horde
-T6 Spam

Any list I build that can handle all those styles of list (and I can build one out of every codex outside of Eldar and that's just due to my lack of experience with Eldar) can handle any "competitive" gk build. Don't blame a book for an inability to build a proper take all comers list.

Also the idea that people can't see a larger picture because they don't agree with you is misguided and comes off arrogant. Is it possible that maybe you don't quite understand the balance of the game and that brings you to the conclusion that GK are broken?

I stand by that GK aren't broken. I also don't expect to see them dominating the Tourney scene this year anything like the Orks did in 2008-2009.

Tomb King wrote:

Another thing that ruins grey knights is there ability to wipe an opponent off the board with relative ease. Countless players have stopped playing or refuse to play against grey knights. Hell some grey knight players get heckled on sight. As goatboy said in his recent blog. GK = No Fun for at least one of the players!

I don't know, I don't mind and rather enjoy playing against GK with my Eldar, I think that army has a lot of nice counter options for GK =). In a tournament you can't choose to NOT play an opponent so its best to just man up and be prepared =/.

I recently played in a 2k tournament with my GKs and 2 of my 3 matches were some of the best I've played, one I won and the other I lost. It was only the 3rd match where it felt more like a chore for me to win.

1st match vs Tau - Surprisingly tough opponent and I had to earn the victory
2nd match vs BA - just a mop up, I have grown bored with facing the BA
3rd match vs SW - most difficult and most fun match I've had in a tournament to date, lost but only by a hairs breadth

Only against BA do I find it even remotely point and click to win.