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That is easy to say but does it matter?

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I agree with most of their ideas. But they do have some impractical ideas. I agree with them more than GW, for sure.

Well first off, what I said at first was more " Wolf Wolf Wolf..Wolf...ED209 toes. "

That out of the way the fact you are in agreement with PETA does explain a good deal.

I have to believe a group that feels plastic fur is murder mentally cashed out a long time ago. I think we can all agree animals are good " Being that we ourselves are animals " without drinking their brand of kool aid.

I end with saying, wolf wolf wolf..and wolf. So leave my space wolves alone, I don't swim in your toilet so stop trying to pee in my wolf pool.

SW are the one faction i can never leave alone. They are so bad it almost hurts.

Im the first one to acknowledge GW has made BA into an embarrassing pile of gak, so say whatever you want.

I've hated sw since 2nd, so thats not likely to change. They are the first faction id squat if i could.

Martel732 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I agree with most of their ideas. But they do have some impractical ideas. I agree with them more than GW, for sure.

Well first off, what I said at first was more " Wolf Wolf Wolf..Wolf...ED209 toes. "

That out of the way the fact you are in agreement with PETA does explain a good deal.

I have to believe a group that feels plastic fur is murder mentally cashed out a long time ago. I think we can all agree animals are good " Being that we ourselves are animals " without drinking their brand of kool aid.

I end with saying, wolf wolf wolf..and wolf. So leave my space wolves alone, I don't swim in your toilet so stop trying to pee in my wolf pool.

SW are the one faction i can never leave alone. They are so bad it almost hurts.

Im the first one to acknowledge GW has made BA into an embarrassing pile of gak, so say whatever you want.

I've hated sw since 2nd, so thats not likely to change. They are the first faction id squat if i could.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think the Primaris line of Superbois was designed to unify the fluff. I mean, there are no special snowflake primaris units now.

I think the Primaris line was designed to balance Marines not do anything game changing to the fluff. I don't know that it does it, but I also think we're still in the Beta. I also think we're going to get unique Primaris before it's all said and done.

Go ahead. Say it. It amuses me.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yeah. It doesn't make business sense ether.

This IS the Business sense:

It think its to make up for the fact that...codex compliant chapters don't get things like Sang guard, Black Knights, Death company, ect. Cause these "snowflake" chapters have historically been marines +1 since forever

They want to sell Vanilla Marines too. They may sell more BA/DA if they get everything UM do, but they'll sell fewer UM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

They just got the "fun to hate" reputation because lots of SM players don't wanna buy new models - primaris get the same hate too. They are great models IMO. Funny you hear 0 complaints about the new oblitz models even though they are chaos cents now lol.

Meh, I don't think they're ugly, and I don't think they're gorgeous. I also don't think they're very good. They can't teleport, they can't transport very well. They're slow and relegated to footslogging. Point for Point I'd rather take other heavy support than the Devastator Centurions. THey're not shootier enough for the lower model count, and this is long before we get into the close assault version even more hampered by transport/teleport/shortcuts. I've kept a few boxes in my shopping cart waiting for them to be worth taking or a time when I didn't have anything better to paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Cents have got to be the most hated model in the history of the game.

This should provide immense relief to Guilliman.

Bharring wrote:


Sure, some of the complaints are about the model itself ("Lets enclose an engineered super-soldier in Power Armor. Then lets enclose that Power Armor in *bigger* Power Armor.").

Bjorn the Fell Handed is holding for you on Line Two with a question about encasing power armor in more power armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. You just give each Chapter 3-4 unique units and you're done. Bam. Done. Hell I'm for removing certain characters too outside fluff. Nobody is going to miss Asmodai on the table, sorry.

I will. I miss Sapphon too.

Martel732 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I agree with most of their ideas. But they do have some impractical ideas. I agree with them more than GW, for sure.

Well first off, what I said at first was more " Wolf Wolf Wolf..Wolf...ED209 toes. "

That out of the way the fact you are in agreement with PETA does explain a good deal.

I have to believe a group that feels plastic fur is murder mentally cashed out a long time ago. I think we can all agree animals are good " Being that we ourselves are animals " without drinking their brand of kool aid.

I end with saying, wolf wolf wolf..and wolf. So leave my space wolves alone, I don't swim in your toilet so stop trying to pee in my wolf pool.

SW are the one faction i can never leave alone. They are so bad it almost hurts.

Im the first one to acknowledge GW has made BA into an embarrassing pile of gak, so say whatever you want.

I've hated sw since 2nd, so thats not likely to change. They are the first faction id squat if i could.

Well, it's good you have no capability to squat the wolfie wolves. That is fine to hate a faction, I hate necrons, consider them the one faction I'd never ever play as they are too boring so I get it. That said, I don't be grudge you your blood strike missiles or blood fists. Stop trying to hate on my wolf lords, riding thunder wolves, with a pair of wolves, and a wolf tooth necklace with wolf cape and twin wolf claws carrying his wulfen stone.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I agree with most of their ideas. But they do have some impractical ideas. I agree with them more than GW, for sure.

Well first off, what I said at first was more " Wolf Wolf Wolf..Wolf...ED209 toes. "

That out of the way the fact you are in agreement with PETA does explain a good deal.

I have to believe a group that feels plastic fur is murder mentally cashed out a long time ago. I think we can all agree animals are good " Being that we ourselves are animals " without drinking their brand of kool aid.

I end with saying, wolf wolf wolf..and wolf. So leave my space wolves alone, I don't swim in your toilet so stop trying to pee in my wolf pool.

SW are the one faction i can never leave alone. They are so bad it almost hurts.

Im the first one to acknowledge GW has made BA into an embarrassing pile of gak, so say whatever you want.

I've hated sw since 2nd, so thats not likely to change. They are the first faction id squat if i could.

Well, it's good you have no capability to squat the wolfie wolves. That is fine to hate a faction, I hate necrons, consider them the one faction I'd never ever play as they are too boring so I get it. That said, I don't be grudge you your blood strike missiles or blood fists. Stop trying to hate on my wolf lords, riding thunder wolves, with a pair of wolves, and a wolf tooth necklace with wolf cape and twin wolf claws carrying his wulfen stone.

honestly Martel reminds me of one of those kids who hears it's cool to hate on something so goes overboard with it

I agree with the sentiment behind Martel because Space Wolves lore and fluff is by far the most Marty Stu crap that's ever been done. People like to get on the Ultramarines for this but think about what it means to be the best shining example vs the Space Wolves getting away with ANYTHING.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I agree with the sentiment behind Martel because Space Wolves lore and fluff is by far the most Marty Stu crap that's ever been done. People like to get on the Ultramarines for this but think about what it means to be the best shining example vs the Space Wolves getting away with ANYTHING.

sure but there's a differance between saying the space wolves aren't your cup of tea and basicly responding to a psot where someone mentions they play space wolves with basicly an insult.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I agree with the sentiment behind Martel because Space Wolves lore and fluff is by far the most Marty Stu crap that's ever been done. People like to get on the Ultramarines for this but think about what it means to be the best shining example vs the Space Wolves getting away with ANYTHING.

sure but there's a differance between saying the space wolves aren't your cup of tea and basicly responding to a psot where someone mentions they play space wolves with basicly an insult.

That's also a fair point.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I agree with the sentiment behind Martel because Space Wolves lore and fluff is by far the most Marty Stu crap that's ever been done. People like to get on the Ultramarines for this but think about what it means to be the best shining example vs the Space Wolves getting away with ANYTHING.

sure but there's a differance between saying the space wolves aren't your cup of tea and basicly responding to a psot where someone mentions they play space wolves with basicly an insult.

To be fair, while santa sleigh and wolfwolf riders are just bad, the faction kinda jumped the shark with wolfballerinas with claws made out of ice (that somehow cut better than adamantium ones) and that hideous garbage of a dreadnought that bites people to death with his exposed head...

 Irbis wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
However, reading the page, what makes you think BA can't use it? The Pick a Space Marines Detachment?

Yes, along with the FAQ that states...

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

Funnily enough, this means Blood Ravens are not space marines

Replace <Chapter> with Blood Ravens.

Look, I know the rules are spread across a few sources but this complete lack of knowledge is unbecoming.

Lemondish wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
However, reading the page, what makes you think BA can't use it? The Pick a Space Marines Detachment?

Yes, along with the FAQ that states...

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

Funnily enough, this means Blood Ravens are not space marines

Replace <Chapter> with Blood Ravens.

Look, I know the rules are spread across a few sources but this complete lack of knowledge is unbecoming.

Right, but models that don't have <CHAPTER> and have BLOOD RAVENS on their datasheet (ie Gabriel) are not Space Marines, RAW. So technically if you run Gabriel Angelos then you do not have a Space Marine detachment.

Yeah, it's stupid. Yeah, no one will actually play it like that. But it would be nice if we got an FAQ.

The blood-themed stuff is stupid as well, but they actually removed some of it since 5th. (Along with BA ability to you know, be a threat) For the wolves, they have triple and quadruple downed on the wolf theme.

 Irbis wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I agree with the sentiment behind Martel because Space Wolves lore and fluff is by far the most Marty Stu crap that's ever been done. People like to get on the Ultramarines for this but think about what it means to be the best shining example vs the Space Wolves getting away with ANYTHING.

sure but there's a differance between saying the space wolves aren't your cup of tea and basicly responding to a psot where someone mentions they play space wolves with basicly an insult.

To be fair, while santa sleigh and wolfwolf riders are just bad, the faction kinda jumped the shark with wolfballerinas with claws made out of ice (that somehow cut better than adamantium ones) and that hideous garbage of a dreadnought that bites people to death with his exposed head...

Models can be done another way, so I don't care about that. I care about the atrocious fluff.

 Stux wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
However, reading the page, what makes you think BA can't use it? The Pick a Space Marines Detachment?

Yes, along with the FAQ that states...

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

Funnily enough, this means Blood Ravens are not space marines

Replace <Chapter> with Blood Ravens.

Look, I know the rules are spread across a few sources but this complete lack of knowledge is unbecoming.

Right, but models that don't have <CHAPTER> and have BLOOD RAVENS on their datasheet (ie Gabriel) are not Space Marines, RAW. So technically if you run Gabriel Angelos then you do not have a Space Marine detachment.

Yeah, it's stupid. Yeah, no one will actually play it like that. But it would be nice if we got an FAQ.

That is the most flamebait rules lawyering I have ever heard, and that's saying something given the nature of this place.

Lemondish wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
However, reading the page, what makes you think BA can't use it? The Pick a Space Marines Detachment?

Yes, along with the FAQ that states...

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

Funnily enough, this means Blood Ravens are not space marines

Replace <Chapter> with Blood Ravens.

Look, I know the rules are spread across a few sources but this complete lack of knowledge is unbecoming.

Right, but models that don't have <CHAPTER> and have BLOOD RAVENS on their datasheet (ie Gabriel) are not Space Marines, RAW. So technically if you run Gabriel Angelos then you do not have a Space Marine detachment.

Yeah, it's stupid. Yeah, no one will actually play it like that. But it would be nice if we got an FAQ.

That is the most flamebait rules lawyering I have ever heard, and that's saying something given the nature of this place.

It's just poorly written rules. As I say, no one will play it that way, but it simply is what the rules say.

Lemondish wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Breton wrote:
However, reading the page, what makes you think BA can't use it? The Pick a Space Marines Detachment?

Yes, along with the FAQ that states...

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

Funnily enough, this means Blood Ravens are not space marines

Replace <Chapter> with Blood Ravens.

Look, I know the rules are spread across a few sources but this complete lack of knowledge is unbecoming.

Right, but models that don't have <CHAPTER> and have BLOOD RAVENS on their datasheet (ie Gabriel) are not Space Marines, RAW. So technically if you run Gabriel Angelos then you do not have a Space Marine detachment.

Yeah, it's stupid. Yeah, no one will actually play it like that. But it would be nice if we got an FAQ.

That is the most flamebait rules lawyering I have ever heard, and that's saying something given the nature of this place.

Is it incorrect though?

It leads to an absurd result, so its wrong.

Martel732 wrote:
It leads to an absurd result, so its wrong.

That wasn't the question.

Everytime anything comes out this same thing happens and this is why I support a consolidation of the marine books to stop things like this.

Lemondish wrote:
Look, I know the rules are spread across a few sources but this complete lack of knowledge is unbecoming.

Yes, your laughable lack of knowledge (which you try to mask with ad personam insults with zero actual arguments on both forums) is both tiring and unbecoming. Maybe do read the rules, especially before you go into your default "you guys are waac SUXXX lolll" mode every time anyone says they would like the rules of say blood ravens or reivers or primaris officers to be balanced with other options so that they are worth using (I repeat, worth using, not your imaginary 'best thing ever' that was literally said by no one)?

And I like how you apparently crawl after my posts everywhere in three different places now throwing snide insults from behind the corner despite me giving up correcting your fallacies long time ago. Is that your new hobby or something? PS. prepared that debunk of my math you promised 8 moths ago or was that just pure huff and puff supported by no substance after you lost argument yet again?

Martel732 wrote:
It leads to an absurd result, so its wrong.

I do sort of agree with this. RAW that no one follows is effectively not a rule. But it is worth noting the difference between RAW and rules consensus when they differ.

Its how real law works, so it seems applicable to gws gak show.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It leads to an absurd result, so its wrong.

That wasn't the question.

Nevertheless, its the answer.

Martel732 wrote:
Its how real law works, so it seems applicable to gws gak show.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It leads to an absurd result, so its wrong.

That wasn't the question.

Nevertheless, its the answer.

No, saying that "what's written is stupid" is not an answer. The question was, as written, do Blood Ravens count?

Answer that, please, instead of throwing out your opinion.

Rules wise it seems to me that they wouldn't be a space marines detachment, based on the fact that they aren't the named chapter or DIY chapters run with those chapters rules.

As odd as that is, and really GW need to actually have their rule writers know the rules that came before, then write the new rules with that in mind. Then writing the blood ravens in to a space marine detachment like the named chapters or clarifying that they are excluded to make it not a matter for debate.

Unless I'm missing part of the discussion, which could very well be the case.

Martel732 wrote:
It leads to an absurd result, so its wrong.

Ultramarine Apothecaries can't treat Guilliman. Ultramarine Apothecaries can't treat Mortifactor or Nova Marine successor chapter marines. In fact, the very MINUTE Brother Captain Juliusus Caesariusus leaves his post in the UM 8th company to form a new Chapter as their Chapter Master, His personal equerry the Apothecary Hypocraticus Oathicus - who could have performed open hearts surgery on the guy in the middle of a battle field yesterday, can't give him so much as a bandaid when the careless functionary scratches him on the arm with the quill used to sign the proclamation scroll.

At one point a Smash Captain in Terminator Armor could use polymorphine to pretend to be a hive mind controlled Termaguant.

Space Marines can never use ATSKNF - modifiers are applied after rerolls, and a even a Ld 7 SW SM can't fail a LD test until after modifiers.

Trash Can Lid of Faith: Seraphim have a 6++ save, and a rule forcing them (if it were optional this wouldn't be a problem) to re-roll failed results when using this save. Celestine gives a +1 modifier to those invulnerable saves. However, because of the totally fun and not at all stupid system where re-rolls must happens before modifiers, if a Seraphim rolls a 5 for their save, they are forced to re-roll it even though it would pass after modifiers.

Thermonuclear Spore Mines: The wording of the Floating Death ability states that a Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase; whenever it explodes, it inflicts Mortal Wounds on the "nearest" enemy unit except on a 1. The issue is that multiple Spore Mines in range of the same unit explode simultaneously, and thus their wounds must be sequentially resolved. Suppose I have three Spore Mines, each in range of a squad of 2 Space Marines. All three explode. The first one wipes out the Space Marine Squad, while the second and third one each inflict Mortal Wounds on the "next" nearest unit, even if on the opposite side of the game board and out of Line of Sight.

"We forgot the difference between Unit and Model" for 500, Alex: The rules for Advancing say that the unit may not be selected to shoot if it does so. The rules for Assault weapons say a model with an Assault weapon may shoot it if it advanced, but at -1 to hit. The problem is that you can never select the unit the model with an Assault weapon is in as a unit you want to shoot with, due to the rules for advancing. The same applies for Pistols with a unit within 1" of an enemy

Stop Betraying Yourself! Stop Betraying Yourself!: Khârn the Betrayer has the rule Kill! Maim! Burn! which lets him (any friendly World Eaters within 1", so really just himself) reroll all hits in the Fight Subphase, and he hits on a 2+. Sounds good so far, right? However, his rule The Betrayer means he cannot reroll 1s (so he cannot reroll any hits), each 1 hitting a friendly unit instead. You would think this would mean that you should run him solo, for "If there are no friendly models within 1 inch of Khârn, the hits are discarded." Unfortunately, a model is always treated as being in range of itself for auras or other special rules, meaning a bunch of 1s (or modified rolls) will result in Khârn hitting himself instead of the enemy.


The Weapons of the Dark Age stratagem gives Dark Angel plasma weapons +1 damage, defining a plasma weapon as any weapon whose weapon profile includes plasma in its name. This means that it also accidentally applies to other weapons, like the bolter part of a combi-plasma, since it forgets to exclude them the same way the Beta Bolter rules exclude the non-bolter weapon profile of any combi-weapon.


In other words, it's not the first time, and won't be the last the rules result in a stupid result.

Strictly speaking, even those Blood Raves with the <Chapter> Keyword aren't Space Marines using the reading people are trying to apply for Angelos wtih his <Blood Ravens> keyword. Codex:SM mentioned Chapters with their own book - in this case, Blood Ravens have their own book in a White Dwarf, excluding them all. Its the same reasoning behind why the other chapters can't take an Executioner.

Breton,

Your post gives me so much joy. Many laughs were had reading through it, and I am not being sarcastic when I say thank you.

I've said several times before but GW clearly intends people to apply a degree of common sense in the game and NOT be rules lawyer donkey-caves