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Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing smash capts go away. Because they are dumb.

Nah it's totally fluffy to have Multiple Captains flying around with jumppacks 1 shotting titans. LOL just kidding. I am with you. Certain units should just not be able to hurt titans in melle IMO. Units of certain size differences really should not interact in melle IMO.

So I can't use a Relic Blade and Melta Gun on my 7th Company Captain on foot, because BA JP captains with better weapons can oneshot Castelleans?

I said melle...Mainly because just getting that close to an absurdly large unit to hit it with a hammer would likely kill you. Plus if they step on you that storm shield isn't going to do a dang thing.
*Cough cough Nurgle Daemons cough*

Sorry, had an army I play and enjoy that has basically no shooting stuck in my throat.

How many of your nurgling can the knight kill in 1 turn? Like 40 points worth? Hed need 11 turns to make his points back - in a 6 turn max game. You win just by existing. Plus you have Daemon prince...which appears to be something like 5x larger than a marine captain. Not to mention his ability to do mortal wounds. He should be able to fight a knight is what I am saying.
Yes, that's fun gameplay. "Sit back and hope you score enough points while you get slaughtered with no way of attacking the big thing."

And a Daemon Prince, with Virulent Blessing AND a Poxbringer, does...

7 attacks
245/36 hits
245/54 wounds
245/81 unsaved, at damage 2 (3s, 4s), 3 (5s), and 6 (6s).
9.83 damage on average.

What does the Knight do? Well let's see!

4 attacks
8/3 hits
20/9 wounds
40/27 unsaved
8.89 damage from the big boy weapon, or not enough to kill through FNP.

or...

12 attacks
8 hits
16/3 wounds
32/9 unsaved
7.11 damage.

So, in close combat only, a Knight will probably fail to kill my prince. (Unless they're a gallant, with an extra attack and better WS.) But then they can fall back and shoot him to hell.

Too bad your not a 130 point smash captain.

Also I've had a greater daemon of korne kill 2 knights in 1 turn....It's not like daemons don't have their own titan killers. Nurgle is just more defensively oriented than offense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 19:35:55


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Nurgle also has the toad things and the flies. And beasts of Nurgle. Maybe if plaguebearers could do no damage at all, they'd be a fair unit lol.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Bharring wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing smash capts go away. Because they are dumb.

Nah it's totally fluffy to have Multiple Captains flying around with jumppacks 1 shotting titans. LOL just kidding. I am with you. Certain units should just not be able to hurt titans in melle IMO. Units of certain size differences really should not interact in melle IMO.

So I can't use a Relic Blade and Melta Gun on my 7th Company Captain on foot, because BA JP captains with better weapons can oneshot Castelleans?

I said melle...Mainly because just getting that close to an absurdly large unit to hit it with a hammer would likely kill you. Plus if they step on you that storm shield isn't going to do a dang thing.
*Cough cough Nurgle Daemons cough*

Sorry, had an army I play and enjoy that has basically no shooting stuck in my throat.

How many of your nurgling can the knight kill in 1 turn? Like 40 points worth? Hed need 11 turns to make his points back - in a 6 turn max game. You win just by existing. Plus you have Daemon prince...which appears to be something like 5x larger than a marine captain. Not to mention his ability to do mortal wounds. He should be able to fight a knight is what I am saying.
Yes, that's fun gameplay. "Sit back and hope you score enough points while you get slaughtered with no way of attacking the big thing."

And a Daemon Prince, with Virulent Blessing AND a Poxbringer, does...

7 attacks
245/36 hits
245/54 wounds
245/81 unsaved, at damage 2 (3s, 4s), 3 (5s), and 6 (6s).
9.83 damage on average.

What does the Knight do? Well let's see!

4 attacks
8/3 hits
20/9 wounds
40/27 unsaved
8.89 damage from the big boy weapon, or not enough to kill through FNP.

or...

12 attacks
8 hits
16/3 wounds
32/9 unsaved
7.11 damage.

So, in close combat only, a Knight will probably fail to kill my prince. (Unless they're a gallant, with an extra attack and better WS.) But then they can fall back and shoot him to hell.

Too bad your not a 130 point smash captain.

Also I've had a greater daemon of korne kill 2 knights in 1 turn....It's not like daemons don't have their own titan killers. Nurgle is just more defensively oriented than offense.

I've seen a T'au soldier kill a Demon Prince. That doesn't mean it's likely.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing smash capts go away. Because they are dumb.

Nah it's totally fluffy to have Multiple Captains flying around with jumppacks 1 shotting titans. LOL just kidding. I am with you. Certain units should just not be able to hurt titans in melle IMO. Units of certain size differences really should not interact in melle IMO.


using thunder hammers to specificly target titans isn't exactly some new thing, it's fluff supported

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_Titanhammer_Squad

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in nl
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






your mind

 Sir Heckington wrote:
My bet is late this year, with a SoB vs. Lost and the Damned Xmas box, and then those two codices sometime 2020.


OOOOHHHH gooodddyyyyy!!!!!

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






BrianDavion wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing smash capts go away. Because they are dumb.

Nah it's totally fluffy to have Multiple Captains flying around with jumppacks 1 shotting titans. LOL just kidding. I am with you. Certain units should just not be able to hurt titans in melle IMO. Units of certain size differences really should not interact in melle IMO.


using thunder hammers to specificly target titans isn't exactly some new thing, it's fluff supported

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_Titanhammer_Squad

Taking command of this new squad Captain Lysander and his retinue teleported to the bridge of his flagship, where the captain retrieved a single Vortex grenade. Commending their souls to the Emperor they teleported back down to the planet, emerging into the material realm within the void shields of one of the Chaos Titans. As it approached Lysander threw the vortex grenade, which disabled the Titan and created a hole within the massive machine. With this opening formed, the "Titanhammer" squad went inside the large machine and used their thunder hammers to destroy the Titan from within. This action was repeated with the other Chaos Titans, resulting in the destruction of the entire renegade Legio.[1]
Since that day, Lysander has always assembled Titanhammer squads to deal with Chaos forces' war machines. Furthermore, several more Chapters have followed Lysander's example.

Vortex grenade disables titan and then you pound it...that makes sense...like 30 terminators bashing a titan with TH I can see that doing some damage.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

40k is supposed to be a universe with near endless variation, and for a long time this was shown in the models too.

Now, I understand it's totally impossible to have an affordable kit that has ALL the options that everyone can take. However, it's also bland and boring to be limited to just what is in the kit.

I'd prefer to go back to 3rd to 6th edition where there was a massive amount of customization, even if you needed to kit-bash a model from 3 or 4 different kits.

Now, if you don't want to confuse a customer, just list all wargear option included in the box ON the box.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really, not that Thunderhammers and other melee infantry shouldn't be able to hurt them. Since they are on the table, infantry have to be able to kill them, especially since knights generally have no issue killing their points in enemy troops etc.
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block




They should probably lower the amount of shots/range and melee attacks slightly so they cant kill back their points easily against most troops. If all you have left is troop infantry vs a knight on the table you shouldnt be able to kill it but you should win by holding objectives.

At the same time knights is nerfed against trooos cheap troops should be nerfed a bit too. A wounded knight without support can easily be overwhelmed by basic guardsmen and the like by just massed number of str 3 and 4 attacks. There should be a reason for those cheap troops to want a special/heavy weapon for a situation like that and not just buy another squad and kill it with wven more lasguns.

Last 2 knights I killed were at some point in the game charged by guardsmen to get the last wound in. Took an insane amount of attacks but my guard battalion had 150+ attacks a turn for almost nothing in points and just grinded them down. I would have won at points due to controlling objectives any way but why not kill the knights when I could. 300pts of guard used for anti infantry, CP, screening and objective holding only need like 3 turns to kill a 300pt+ knight. Stupid.
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really,


Wow, only took until page 3 for this thread to get totally derailed!

They're on the table, get used to it. Let's talk about Intercessors.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

The next Marine codex will be coming long before Sisters of Battle. SOB are still in the model design phase.

I was told September but it might be much sooner. Lots of hinting at new models, rules, etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really, not that Thunderhammers and other melee infantry shouldn't be able to hurt them. Since they are on the table, infantry have to be able to kill them, especially since knights generally have no issue killing their points in enemy troops etc.


Knights aren't hard to kill. Maybe you need to buy some new models or change your play-style. Now let's get back on topic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/17 12:36:03


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






So I actually think this may be real. My working theory is that there has been enough of an outcry about Sargeants being a little lack luster for options and they obviously aren't going to come out with a new Intercessor sprue this soon after release. So they just drop a single model with a bunch of options.

Though I'd rather if they just made a sarge upgrade sprue as opposed to a model since they'll make the model overpriced.

I hope we hear something soon, I've been wanting these new marines for a bit but I don't want to buy Shadowspear
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Seargent Weapon list:
-Bolt Rifle
-Auto Bolt Rifle
-Stalker Bolt Rifle

More seriously, I hope the Sarges get a real diverse weapons list. Although it sounds like it's just 1 option - so no Sword + Pistol or combi or whatnot.

But it seems to read like they can pick 1 item from the Sarge list, or 1 of the following, or 1 item from the Sarge list... am I reading that wrong?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really,


Wow, only took until page 3 for this thread to get totally derailed!

They're on the table, get used to it. Let's talk about Intercessors.


We are dealing with it.....with Thunderhammers, that was pretty much the point.

It's a points game afterall. 10 Deathwing Knights is 370pts, a Gallant is 352pts, they should be able to kill each other and not be a case of "oh, those terminators shouldn't be able to hurt a titanic unit"

But I agree, let's talk about the new marines...although, let's give those new marines some decent melee weapons!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 13:15:48


 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 bullyboy wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really,


Wow, only took until page 3 for this thread to get totally derailed!

They're on the table, get used to it. Let's talk about Intercessors.


We are dealing with it.....with Thunderhammers, that was pretty much the point.

But I agree, let's talk about the new marines...although, let's give those new marines some decent melee weapons!


I want Reivers with Thunder Hammers, and give them back their old charging with grapnels! Then we'd be talking.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really,


Wow, only took until page 3 for this thread to get totally derailed!

They're on the table, get used to it. Let's talk about Intercessors.


Dakka isn't really that bad about staying on topic, unless the topic is 'hey, lets read the tea leaves on what this rules spoiler means for that faction'. It's not like Facebook where you can post an article about how weird snail reproduction is and fully expect someone to invoke Godwin's Law in the first 10 responses.

On topic; anything that opens up the options on Primaris Marines is welcome, the fact that it specified an Intercessor Sergeant Weapon list is a trifle alarming. Hope that's just GW giving themselves space to give different options to different squads, and also hoping that they actually did so instead of letting Intercessors keep all the fun for themselves.

That said, I can almost see it from a faction-balance perspective (again, really hoping I'm wrong here) since Primaris are expensive enough that putting two battalions in a normal list is going to burn up half your points. If we're stuck with that and GW also doesn't want to admit that increasing the CP generation of Battalions and Brigades was a stupid decision that had the exact opposite of it's intended effect, then making the baseline troops better so they don't feel so much like a tax makes a certain amount of sense.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really,


Wow, only took until page 3 for this thread to get totally derailed!

They're on the table, get used to it. Let's talk about Intercessors.


We are dealing with it.....with Thunderhammers, that was pretty much the point.

But I agree, let's talk about the new marines...although, let's give those new marines some decent melee weapons!


I want Reivers with Thunder Hammers, and give them back their old charging with grapnels! Then we'd be talking.


I want fewer thunderhammers on infantry, not more. Captains and death company and such shouldn't be able to have them in the first place.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Iowa

Martel732 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really,


Wow, only took until page 3 for this thread to get totally derailed!

They're on the table, get used to it. Let's talk about Intercessors.


We are dealing with it.....with Thunderhammers, that was pretty much the point.

But I agree, let's talk about the new marines...although, let's give those new marines some decent melee weapons!


I want Reivers with Thunder Hammers, and give them back their old charging with grapnels! Then we'd be talking.


I want fewer thunderhammers on infantry, not more. Captains and death company and such shouldn't be able to have them in the first place.

I could understand death company, but why not captains? Why couldn’t one of the chapter’s captains requisition a thunderhammer?

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really,


Wow, only took until page 3 for this thread to get totally derailed!

They're on the table, get used to it. Let's talk about Intercessors.


We are dealing with it.....with Thunderhammers, that was pretty much the point.

But I agree, let's talk about the new marines...although, let's give those new marines some decent melee weapons!


I want Reivers with Thunder Hammers, and give them back their old charging with grapnels! Then we'd be talking.


I want fewer thunderhammers on infantry, not more. Captains and death company and such shouldn't be able to have them in the first place.


Smash Captains are only a thing because of relics and strategems, not the weapon itself. Need to look at the actual issue.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




They shouldn't be able to physically wield it. Terminators only, imo. The killy needs scaled back on all fronts.

Smash capt is so stupid, I kind of wish BA didn't have a captain entry at all anymore.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/17 14:03:09


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
They shouldn't be able to physically wield it. Terminators only, imo. The killy needs scaled back on all fronts.

Smash capt is so stupid, I kind of wish BA didn't have a captain entry at all anymore.

They've always been able to physically wield it. Get over yourself.

Not saying that the Slamguinus is a good thing, but people will just do the same thing with a Power Fist or multi-damage melee weapon, simply with less impressive results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
The biggest issue is that Knights shouldn't be on the table at all really,


Wow, only took until page 3 for this thread to get totally derailed!

They're on the table, get used to it. Let's talk about Intercessors.


We are dealing with it.....with Thunderhammers, that was pretty much the point.

But I agree, let's talk about the new marines...although, let's give those new marines some decent melee weapons!


I want Reivers with Thunder Hammers, and give them back their old charging with grapnels! Then we'd be talking.


I want fewer thunderhammers on infantry, not more. Captains and death company and such shouldn't be able to have them in the first place.


Smash Captains are only a thing because of relics and strategems, not the weapon itself. Need to look at the actual issue.

We have a winner.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/17 14:36:01


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"They've always been able to physically wield it. "

No, they haven't. And it's dumb.
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Any waaay do people think this new rule is just bolter discipline and atsknf rolled together or do you think there's an actual rule change?

I'd like to see one where marines always contest an object. Custodes have one to always control one so I figure marines should have one to contest it. Marine troop are generally out numbered on an objective unless there's a monster or something there which will just slice through regardless
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




How useful is that when marines are currently so easily removed?
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 fraser1191 wrote:
Any waaay do people think this new rule is just bolter discipline and atsknf rolled together or do you think there's an actual rule change?

I'd like to see one where marines always contest an object. Custodes have one to always control one so I figure marines should have one to contest it. Marine troop are generally out numbered on an objective unless there's a monster or something there which will just slice through regardless


Well this is Intercessors, who have that anyway.

But regardless, that probably wouldn't be handled as a datasheet ability - the Custodes one isn't.
   
Made in ca
Pewling Menial




Ottawa, Canada

Martel732 wrote:
They shouldn't be able to physically wield it. Terminators only, imo. The killy needs scaled back on all fronts.

Smash capt is so stupid, I kind of wish BA didn't have a captain entry at all anymore.


Gene-enhanced super warriors in power armour being unable to lift a hammer. Sounds legit.

- 2500 | - 4500 | Krieg - 2000 | - 1250 | - 2000
30k: Alpha Legion - 3000 | - 2500 | Blackshields: - 750 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Orodhen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They shouldn't be able to physically wield it. Terminators only, imo. The killy needs scaled back on all fronts.

Smash capt is so stupid, I kind of wish BA didn't have a captain entry at all anymore.


Gene-enhanced super warriors in power armour being unable to lift a hammer. Sounds legit.


Lots of other things they can't do. And I forget when they started allowing thunderhammer on infantry, but they didn't use to get them.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Well, thunder hammers, lightning claws and stormbolters used to be terminator only weapons. Later they got given to everybody, so that made terminators less special, they used to be carry heavier weapons than normal marines. But that ship has sailed and been decommissioned a long time ago. When they make Primaris Teminators, I hope they give them new powerful terminator only weapons and keep them that way.

How thunder hammers function now bother me a bit, because they're just better power fists. There should be some trade off. Perhaps PA marines should wield thunder hammers with two hands, so that they would have to forgo shield and other weapons?

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Crimson wrote:
Well, thunder hammers, lightning claws and stormbolters used to be terminator only weapons. Later they got given to everybody, so that made terminators less special, they used to be carry heavier weapons than normal marines. But that ship has sailed and been decommissioned a long time ago. When they make Primaris Teminators, I hope they give them new powerful terminator only weapons and keep them that way.

How thunder hammers function now bother me a bit, because they're just better power fists. There should be some trade off. Perhaps PA marines should wield thunder hammers with two hands, so that they would have to forgo shield and other weapons?


Some of them do. Others don't.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 fraser1191 wrote:
Any waaay do people think this new rule is just bolter discipline and atsknf rolled together or do you think there's an actual rule change?

I'd like to see one where marines always contest an object. Custodes have one to always control one so I figure marines should have one to contest it. Marine troop are generally out numbered on an objective unless there's a monster or something there which will just slice through regardless


Marines already have that rule, it's called Champions of Humanity iirc. The way it's worded it became completely redundant when all troop units got ObSec. The Custodes one is worded the same way.

It makes me wonder what GW is smoking some of the time. They knew that Marines were going to need a special rule or they'd never be able to hold an objective, gave them said rule, and then took it away again.
   
 
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