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Karol wrote: But isn't it how good stuff in 8th ed works in general. Dark Reapers were great, because they could move and fire, could shot stuff outside of LoS, could fire twice with Inari, didn't suffer negative mods and could double dip on CWE stratagems for a long times. Alaitoc flyers are great, because they can stack multiple minus to hit mods. Catellan using armies were stacking the CP gain from cheap IG, with the power of a knight castellan, on top of raven house rules.
The meteor captins of old BA were over buffing one or two dudes with buffs and stratagems etc. chaos soup is the over lap of rules and units from multiple books, to cherry pick the best things etc.
Something that would be winning games in w40k without any overlaping rules and just stock stuff, would have to be borderline undercosted.
Sure, but the difference is that *everything* in the Iron Hands army gets the "five abilities" that Ice_can listed. The thing that makes/made Leviathans above-average was not those five abilities, it was the additional warlord trait ability and dreadnought-exclusive stratagems that it had access to, condensed onto a single powerful model. (Since buffing one leviathan is equivalent to buffing 2-3 regular dreadnoughts, all stratagems used on it are 2-3 times as cost efficient.)
If you think those "five abilities" are too powerful, then you should ban Iron Hands entirely, but they're not the problem here - it's the unit-specific stratagems.
Except the dreadnaught charictor is Ironhands only strategum.
Ironstone relic for -1 damage Iron hands only
Base 6+FNP Iron hands only
5+ overwatch 4+ with strategum Iron hands only
Having any marine unit turn into 2+ bodyguards ironhands only strategum.
Iron hands needed some love as they were laughable bad in codex 1.0 a 16% durability buff on models costed at 130% of their points value with that buff doesn't make a unit work.
But cutting the unit down to 100% of it's point's cost value and then applying a 16% durability buff plus would have been a workable army.
Heck the fnp plus counts as double wounds would have been fair compensation for the terrible 1.0 rules but to throw so many buffs and strategums into exclusively 1 subfaction and then use that to justify changeing units used across multiple codex's let alone subfactions is not improving balance it's throwing it into unachievable.
Ice, please go back and read the original replies I was talking about. I had suggested that, in order to balance the Leviathan, you ban it from taking the character stratagem and don't let it halve damage, so that the ironstone can't stack with other damage-reducing abilities. (And if it can't turn into a "charictor", it can't use the bodyguard "strategum" either.) You then started talking about how Iron Hands get "five abilities", namely two of the abilities from their chapter trait, doctrines, and two abilities from their super doctrine.
You forgot the discussion after a couple posts went by, and are arguing against a point that nobody is making.
On the charictor strategums fine
Why should it be excluded from the duty eternal but benifit from the iron stone, if anything it should be the otherway around.
Also Leviathans arnt the grossest abuse of the charictor dreadnaughts, untargetable venerable and mortis dreadnaughts, just GW idiocy at it's finest.
The issue isn't the leviathan the issue isn't just 1 strategum.
It's the buff upon buff upon relic upon strategums, that only ironhands have access to being the issue.
Trying to kill charictors at T7 3+ 6++ when your reduced to sniper weapons is a joke, whoever thought unlimited access to charictor rulea for dreadnaughts would be fine was high.
Well truth be told without the character rule protection normal dreadnoughts would have to be given LoS ignoring weapons to be much of an option.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: Well truth be told without the character rule protection normal dreadnoughts would have to be given LoS ignoring weapons to be much of an option.
OR it would mean the person playing them would need to be smart with their positioning isntead of just putting them in the spot with the best line of sight and play a game of whack a mole with the opponent.
Making dreadnoughts characters behind a super tanky army means that youll be shot at all game with no chance to retaliate. The best "answer" to character dreads are admech arquebuses or vindicaire spam. the problem is that a thunderfire cannon will shred the admech snipers and the vindicaires will struggle to kill one.
While im glad space marines got some love to become more playable, this is just wayy over the top, and im not talking about only IH, they get so many free rules that the moment they were announced, i knew something would break.
I always liked dreads as an anchor to a line or a droppod threat. Neither were great in previous editions, sure. But they went from not-great to not-even-in-the-rules with the switch to 8E.
Not for nothing, but why do all non-primaris GW Dreadnaught suck balls?
Is there anything less-intimidating than the GW base Dreadnaught? I'm pretty sure that thing dies if you laugh at it too hard. Even the Custodes Dread sucks. And that is supposed to be a demi-god in his walking death chariot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 13:33:38
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not for nothing, but why do all non-primaris GW Dreadnaught suck balls?
Is there anything less-intimidating than the GW base Dreadnaught? I'm pretty sure that thing dies if you laugh at it too hard. Even the Custodes Dread sucks. And that is supposed to be a demi-god in his walking death chariot.
Dreadnoughts exist to give my army first blood, or embarrass the opponent who thought the cool and fluffy nature of his March of the Ancients list would overcome GWs incompetence or the danger of two squads of Lascannon Havocs.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
-How on earth is your levi getting charged by multiple chaff units in the middle of an IH gunline and does a smash captain even survive charging a 4+ overwatch Leviathan? (quick math says the captain dies on the charge 2 out of 3 times).
The real Smash cappy ignores overwatch. All these other smash cappys are just imitating.
Won't the real Smash cappy please stand up, please stand up.
Irrelevant, the real BA smash captain has no chance of killing the levi, not even when fighting twice. Half of his attacks is saved by the levis 4++. His hammer damage is reduced to 1 by iron stone and duty eternal. One or two points of damage is ignored by its 6+ FNP.
Irrelevant irrelevant - the point wasn't to kill it, but silence it.
The question wasn't "how does a smash cappy kill it. It was how does it survive the overwatch.
Well, easy. It ignores it. Either from being BA or RG, for starters.
How does smash captain with a -2 charage charge over 2 executioners with literally no space to land near the levi? Plus probably 3 characters there to try to kill the smashy?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not for nothing, but why do all non-primaris GW Dreadnaught suck balls?
Is there anything less-intimidating than the GW base Dreadnaught? I'm pretty sure that thing dies if you laugh at it too hard. Even the Custodes Dread sucks. And that is supposed to be a demi-god in his walking death chariot.
Ironhands dreads are fantastic. 110 points for 2x las and a missle with 3+ and reroll 1's and 48 range and can move without pentalty...or you can take a whole army of character dreads who all get +1 attack for 1 CP...might as well just take a power fist instead of a ML in that case so for 122 points you get 2x las and 6 attacks with str 14 flat 3 damage in CC. Literally every vehicle is hugely better as ironhands...it is gross.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/04 14:56:17
chimeara wrote: It's a 1cp strat that makes your opponent halve damage to a dreadnought unit that phase. Stacked with the Iron Stone relic that reduces damage to nearby vehicles by 1. Stacked with Ferios 5++ bubble and ability to heal 6 wounds on vehicles. Then the chapter tactic that gives the whole army 6+++. Then Psychic power that gives it +1 to hit.
Feirros cant heal 6 wounds back, he does a flat 3 ....
chimeara wrote: It's a 1cp strat that makes your opponent halve damage to a dreadnought unit that phase. Stacked with the Iron Stone relic that reduces damage to nearby vehicles by 1. Stacked with Ferios 5++ bubble and ability to heal 6 wounds on vehicles. Then the chapter tactic that gives the whole army 6+++. Then Psychic power that gives it +1 to hit.
Feirros cant heal 6 wounds back, he does a flat 3 ....
He can with a stratagem.
Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!
DominayTrix wrote: If this wasn't space marines then people would absolutely be complaining about the Codex instead of FW. Literally every time its not space marines the army gets blamed. Commanders are the problem, not the character rules that protect them. Hive Tyrants are the problem, not the lack of terrain rules. Shining Spears/Dark Reapers are the problem, not the mechanic that lets you take multiple armies without penalty. Eldar Flyers are the problem, not the ability to stack multiple hit multipliers. Castellans are the problem, not the fact that Imperial Soup has access to over half of GW's catalogue. Iron Hands? Nah that's forgeworld's fault.
You've simplified the issues into poor assumptions.
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
- Reapers we WELL under costed. Soup also had nothing to do with either unit benefiting too strongly from Ynnari.
- Terrain does nothing to stop Flyrant spam.
- The one about Eldar flyers is confusing, because Eldary Flyers are the ones most likely to stack multipliers, so....?
- Soup was nerfed without breaking the ability to support the system. When those strategies were not enough they went to points. Breaking the system apart any more would create other wide-ranging balance issues.
chimeara wrote: It's a 1cp strat that makes your opponent halve damage to a dreadnought unit that phase. Stacked with the Iron Stone relic that reduces damage to nearby vehicles by 1. Stacked with Ferios 5++ bubble and ability to heal 6 wounds on vehicles. Then the chapter tactic that gives the whole army 6+++. Then Psychic power that gives it +1 to hit.
Feirros cant heal 6 wounds back, he does a flat 3 ....
Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase, after an IRON
HANDS TECHMARINE model from your army has used their
Blessing of the Omnissiah ability. That model can use that
ability again, and can repair a model that has already been
repaired that turn
for 1 CP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 15:12:15
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
That's the Coldstar commander. What are the problems with the Enforcer and Crisis commanders?
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
That's the Coldstar commander. What are the problems with the Enforcer and Crisis commanders?
Paying BS4+ prices for BS2+ firepower.
A la carte is what hoses Commanders. Provided not all weapons are of equal value, it forces either Commanders to be OP or Crisis to be trash (or both).
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
That's the Coldstar commander. What are the problems with the Enforcer and Crisis commanders?
Not much, really. I suppose they probably don't want full rerolls to hit for three turns in one detachment given the gunline nature of Tau.
Do you guys also not realize you can take a chapter master as iron hands as well? This is not expensive. Just take him instead of a libby...since you don't really need the libby. Because you can deny a spell on a 4+ for 1 CP...plus you could get another deny for a relic or warlord trait.
The captain offters a lot more than the libby IMO. Doubling the effectiveness of your overwatch alone warrants his inclusion. Not to mention the reroll all hits for your power bubble to increase your ability to kill flyers.
This is the list I am going to try out with my blue ironhands
2 Batallions
Ferros
Techmanrine w/conversion beamer
Captain in term armor with PF and SB Prim LT with MCSBG
9x intercessors with SBR
5x 5 man intercessors with stalkers.
Dread with TLLC and powerfist SB Dread with TLLC and powerfist SB
Landspeeder with TML and HB
Executioner Laser/MissilePod/Stubber
Executioner Laser/Misslepod/Stubber
Relic Levi with storm cannons
Thunderfirecannon
Spend 2 CP at the start of the game to make the dreads characters and they can intervene to eliminate things that manage to charge. Like a pesky smash captain or shining spears. Good luck tying up the Levi with 4 powerful melee characters in range to intervene.
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
That's the Coldstar commander. What are the problems with the Enforcer and Crisis commanders?
No penalty for advancing is a relic I believe. That is not native to the commander. It's a 170ish point suicide unit that likely wont kill it's target and a pathetic 6 wound profile with no invune. It's not the right way to use a commander. If you take rocket pods you can get 3-4 turns of shooting out of them instead of 1. Much like an Ironhands character mortis dread with 4 autocannons has a chance to be really OP. Shooting units with character protection are VERY strong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 15:46:58
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
That's the Coldstar commander. What are the problems with the Enforcer and Crisis commanders?
Not much, really. I suppose they probably don't want full rerolls to hit for three turns in one detachment given the gunline nature of Tau.
How are you getting a commander giving 3 turn of reroll hits in one detachment?
Tau commanders don't have a reroll hits aura.
Master of War is once per game regardless of number of commanders. So 1 turn 2 if you include a special charictor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 16:15:08
Ice_can wrote: How are you getting a commander giving 3 turn of reroll hits in one detachment?
Tau commanders don't have a reroll hits aura.
Master of War is once per game regardless of number of commanders. So 1 turn 2 if you include a special charictor.
Yea, my bad. Never fought multiple commanders so it never came up. The commander rule was the pre-cursor to rule of 3. Like mentioned above - they also get some damn good shooting out of weapons costed for BS4, so the spam potential is quite high since they have so many datasheets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/03 17:19:40
Ice_can wrote: How are you getting a commander giving 3 turn of reroll hits in one detachment?
Tau commanders don't have a reroll hits aura.
Master of War is once per game regardless of number of commanders. So 1 turn 2 if you include a special charictor.
Yea, my bad. Never fought multiple commanders so it never came up. The commander rule was the pre-cursor to rule of 3. Like mentioned above - they also get some damn good shooting out of weapons costed for BS4, so the spam potential is quite high since they have so many datasheets.
They have a special rule that limits them. Only 1 commander keyword allowed per detachment. Having such a rule to me seems like GW realizes this unit is too good and therefore needs special limitations. I guess the relic rule is similar but I think relic units from FW probably should cost you CP to unlock.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/03 18:24:05
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
DominayTrix wrote: If this wasn't space marines then people would absolutely be complaining about the Codex instead of FW. Literally every time its not space marines the army gets blamed. Commanders are the problem, not the character rules that protect them. Hive Tyrants are the problem, not the lack of terrain rules. Shining Spears/Dark Reapers are the problem, not the mechanic that lets you take multiple armies without penalty. Eldar Flyers are the problem, not the ability to stack multiple hit multipliers. Castellans are the problem, not the fact that Imperial Soup has access to over half of GW's catalogue. Iron Hands? Nah that's forgeworld's fault.
You've simplified the issues into poor assumptions.
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
- Reapers we WELL under costed. Soup also had nothing to do with either unit benefiting too strongly from Ynnari.
- Terrain does nothing to stop Flyrant spam.
- The one about Eldar flyers is confusing, because Eldary Flyers are the ones most likely to stack multipliers, so....?
- Soup was nerfed without breaking the ability to support the system. When those strategies were not enough they went to points. Breaking the system apart any more would create other wide-ranging balance issues.
Wait what? Commanders don’t do that naturally and even then they are expensive point sinks with reatrictions against taking literally the best crisis weapon available.
Ynnari is Eldar soup so its pretty relevant considering the free actions were what drove competitive Eldar until the rework.
Eldar fliers aren’t a problem if you took away multiple -1 modifers. Alternatively, if eldar fliers were massively nerfed without touching multiple hit modifiers then something better would take its place.
The lack of terrain was heavily blamed for why tyrants did so incredibly well in addition to being undercosted. Nowhere to hide combined with cheap tyrants is strong. Just look for threads discussing the infamous tyrant tournament. Were the point changes on tyrants what solved the problem or was it the rule of 3, no turn 1 deepstrike, and 50% or more has to start on the field?
Soup has dominated the meta since day 1 and still is the strongest way to build most armies with access to it. What points are you referencing in regards to soup? There’s 0 penalty besides marine doctrines. Also, citation needed on how removing soup from matched play would “cause wide-ranging balance issues.” Soup is a crutch for a lot of armies and that’s a clear indicator there are already balance issues if armies can’t stand on their own without soup.
Ice_can wrote: How are you getting a commander giving 3 turn of reroll hits in one detachment?
Tau commanders don't have a reroll hits aura.
Master of War is once per game regardless of number of commanders. So 1 turn 2 if you include a special charictor.
Yea, my bad. Never fought multiple commanders so it never came up. The commander rule was the pre-cursor to rule of 3. Like mentioned above - they also get some damn good shooting out of weapons costed for BS4, so the spam potential is quite high since they have so many datasheets.
Yaknow, we HAVE BS4 suits to compare them with.
And crisis suits are just...bad. really bad.
The entire crisis lineup is fethed up, because commanders HAVE to be super-effective gunboats, as they don't do anything else. (seriously, once-per-game aura regardless of the number of commanders you got? WTF?)
Regular crisis are bad because they are not durable at all, don't have the char protection and don't pack enough punch per model, but are expensive as hell once equipped.
Coldstars break the system because their speed combined with the ability to take quad guns of anything except ion (and that restriction alone should have raise alarm bells that maybe ion itself is out of wack) means they wreck stuff, if you COULD spam coldstars, it would have been crazy.
Meanwhile character suits get punked because they can't come close to matching up with generic dakka commanders.
Support systems are a joke, and nobody takes them on crisis suits because another gun is almost always better.
And FSE is virtually unplayable because of the commander limit (that coldstar forces to exist) as they can't get a second HQ that fits their style. (no ethreals allowed, and a fireblade doesn't fit in FSE aggression lists)
Crisis AND commander variants should get a 2-gun limit, and a hefty discount for the guns to compensate. only THEN you can make the support systems actually do worthwhile and intresting things (and not have 4 different freaking flavors of "conditionally improves BS". they are already bad, making them redundant is insulting), and the commander's shtick would be the fact they carry 2, letting them be more versatile than regular crisis.
BAAAAAAAAACK to topic.
The event banning a model (changing the rules) in order to compensate for imbalance created by them changing the missions (changing the rules) is idiotic.
You literally do more of the thing that caused the problem to begin with!
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
DominayTrix wrote: If this wasn't space marines then people would absolutely be complaining about the Codex instead of FW. Literally every time its not space marines the army gets blamed. Commanders are the problem, not the character rules that protect them. Hive Tyrants are the problem, not the lack of terrain rules. Shining Spears/Dark Reapers are the problem, not the mechanic that lets you take multiple armies without penalty. Eldar Flyers are the problem, not the ability to stack multiple hit multipliers. Castellans are the problem, not the fact that Imperial Soup has access to over half of GW's catalogue. Iron Hands? Nah that's forgeworld's fault.
You've simplified the issues into poor assumptions.
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
- Reapers we WELL under costed. Soup also had nothing to do with either unit benefiting too strongly from Ynnari.
- Terrain does nothing to stop Flyrant spam.
- The one about Eldar flyers is confusing, because Eldary Flyers are the ones most likely to stack multipliers, so....?
- Soup was nerfed without breaking the ability to support the system. When those strategies were not enough they went to points. Breaking the system apart any more would create other wide-ranging balance issues.
Wait what? Commanders don’t do that naturally and even then they are expensive point sinks with reatrictions against taking literally the best crisis weapon available.
Ynnari is Eldar soup so its pretty relevant considering the free actions were what drove competitive Eldar until the rework.
Eldar fliers aren’t a problem if you took away multiple -1 modifers. Alternatively, if eldar fliers were massively nerfed without touching multiple hit modifiers then something better would take its place.
The lack of terrain was heavily blamed for why tyrants did so incredibly well in addition to being undercosted. Nowhere to hide combined with cheap tyrants is strong. Just look for threads discussing the infamous tyrant tournament. Were the point changes on tyrants what solved the problem or was it the rule of 3, no turn 1 deepstrike, and 50% or more has to start on the field?
Soup has dominated the meta since day 1 and still is the strongest way to build most armies with access to it. What points are you referencing in regards to soup? There’s 0 penalty besides marine doctrines. Also, citation needed on how removing soup from matched play would “cause wide-ranging balance issues.” Soup is a crutch for a lot of armies and that’s a clear indicator there are already balance issues if armies can’t stand on their own without soup.
And that's the issue with internal balance. What reason do I have to take Whirlwinds (which really are just okay now) compared to functional Guard artillery?
Allies should've been a compliment, not the crutch they eventually became. People blaming allies aren't blaming the real culprit: poor internal and external balance.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
everything boils down to internal and external balance.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
DominayTrix wrote: If this wasn't space marines then people would absolutely be complaining about the Codex instead of FW. Literally every time its not space marines the army gets blamed. Commanders are the problem, not the character rules that protect them. Hive Tyrants are the problem, not the lack of terrain rules. Shining Spears/Dark Reapers are the problem, not the mechanic that lets you take multiple armies without penalty. Eldar Flyers are the problem, not the ability to stack multiple hit multipliers. Castellans are the problem, not the fact that Imperial Soup has access to over half of GW's catalogue. Iron Hands? Nah that's forgeworld's fault.
You've simplified the issues into poor assumptions.
- Commanders pack in a ton of guns with the best BS coupled with 40" movement and no penalty to shoot. They literally give to be where they want and hit what they want with impunity.
- Reapers we WELL under costed. Soup also had nothing to do with either unit benefiting too strongly from Ynnari.
- Terrain does nothing to stop Flyrant spam.
- The one about Eldar flyers is confusing, because Eldary Flyers are the ones most likely to stack multipliers, so....?
- Soup was nerfed without breaking the ability to support the system. When those strategies were not enough they went to points. Breaking the system apart any more would create other wide-ranging balance issues.
Wait what? Commanders don’t do that naturally and even then they are expensive point sinks with reatrictions against taking literally the best crisis weapon available.
Ynnari is Eldar soup so its pretty relevant considering the free actions were what drove competitive Eldar until the rework.
Eldar fliers aren’t a problem if you took away multiple -1 modifers. Alternatively, if eldar fliers were massively nerfed without touching multiple hit modifiers then something better would take its place.
The lack of terrain was heavily blamed for why tyrants did so incredibly well in addition to being undercosted. Nowhere to hide combined with cheap tyrants is strong. Just look for threads discussing the infamous tyrant tournament. Were the point changes on tyrants what solved the problem or was it the rule of 3, no turn 1 deepstrike, and 50% or more has to start on the field?
Soup has dominated the meta since day 1 and still is the strongest way to build most armies with access to it. What points are you referencing in regards to soup? There’s 0 penalty besides marine doctrines. Also, citation needed on how removing soup from matched play would “cause wide-ranging balance issues.” Soup is a crutch for a lot of armies and that’s a clear indicator there are already balance issues if armies can’t stand on their own without soup.
And that's the issue with internal balance. What reason do I have to take Whirlwinds (which really are just okay now) compared to functional Guard artillery?
Allies should've been a compliment, not the crutch they eventually became. People blaming allies aren't blaming the real culprit: poor internal and external balance.
Which is exactly right but seeing as GW are about the laziest game designers in the field with unit rules and can't even balance properly a codex internally let alone externally how would you ever expect allies to not just become a crutch ? It's instantly what people saw when they looked at allies. No one took them to compliment their force, just CP farm or use better types of units of the core armies lacking options. Allies will never work as they are now as GW won't ever clean up this balance issue in the books so allies should be tossed, at least until they take an actual hard look at fixing all the books. I think all we'll have to look forward to is them baking in nerfs to allied armies though if you don't run mono as their lazy fix to the issue though.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
