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Interesting conversation gentlemen, thanks to both of you for the valid points.

Here's a list I've been working on using the vypers for screening I mentioned earlier. Lots of cannons ignoring cover for infantry and chip anti tank, prisms for genuine anti tank, wraith lords for counter punch mostly, everything gets a 2+ at 12", rangers can drop in when and where required, what do you guys think?

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [47 PL, 805pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Craftworld Attribute
. *Custom Craftworld*: Masterful Shots, Masters of Concealment

+ HQ +

Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 137pts]: 0. Smite, 2. Doom, 4. Executioner, Shuriken Pistol, Singing Spear, Twin Shuriken Catapult

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 62pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, 6. Impair Senses, 6: Seer of the Shifting Vector, Craftworlds Warlord, Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Ranger: 5x Ranger Long Rifle, 5x Shuriken Pistol

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Ranger: 5x Ranger Long Rifle, 5x Shuriken Pistol

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Ranger: 5x Ranger Long Rifle, 5x Shuriken Pistol

+ Heavy Support +

Fire Prism [9 PL, 142pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

Fire Prism [9 PL, 142pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

Fire Prism [9 PL, 142pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [42 PL, 600pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Craftworld Attribute
. *Custom Craftworld*: Masterful Shots, Masters of Concealment

+ HQ +

Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 105pts]: Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult

+ Fast Attack +

Vypers [12 PL, 165pts]
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

Vypers [12 PL, 165pts]
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

Vypers [12 PL, 165pts]
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [26 PL, 345pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Craftworld Attribute
. *Custom Craftworld*: Masterful Shots, Masters of Concealment

+ HQ +

Warlock [2 PL, 45pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, 5. Focus Will, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Heavy Support +

Wraithlord [8 PL, 100pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult

Wraithlord [8 PL, 100pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult

Wraithlord [8 PL, 100pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Catapult

++ Total: [115 PL, 1,750pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Well, your main gun line consists of Vypers.
Lots of Vypers, but the enemy like IH will not have a hard time to remove them asap.
Wraithlords are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
Warwalkers have more bang for the bucks.
I'd use Vypers to fill gaps in the gunline but not as ''the'' major gunline.

As far as I'm aware iron hands have moved to intercessor spam with ferros and the apothecary for a 5++/5+++. Vypers match up pretty well against intercessors as I showed above. With the speed of vypers it should be easy enough to deploy far enough back to avoid stalker bolters on their first turn.
I put the lords in the list to counter punch things like disco lords that are very fast or hard to shoot due to modifiers etc.

How many command points do you require to play your army (2000 pts)? Since November, I'd play lists with 6 command points and only when I utilized a detachment of Harlequins did I feel I needed more. I have not used a Drukhari detachment yet, but would imagine the Vect stratagem would be critical and very CP heavy.

I found myself using Phantasm (playing ITC 2019) in many games, but most other stratagems were situational. I utilized Expert Crafters and Seer of Shifting Vector in nearly every list which diminished my need to spend a CP for a reroll.

Depends on the list I'm running normally, seer council is almost always used if I've got points, plus peerless mastery if I've got the cp.
Expert crafter builds are usually pretty cp efficient but I'll often use a guardian bomb to help with chaff clearance, celestial shield is definitely a go to as well as webway.
Most of my lists have a battalion plus another detachment so 9cp is typical for me.

I love the +1 to cast strat, I use it every round I can. Combined with focus will it lets you get your key powers with such regularity.

I also really rate supreme disdain for exploding 6s.

Of course lightning fast reflexes.

Fire and fade is mandatory on some units.

Those are the big ones and I generally prefer to run double batallion.

Do you find the CP in your builds sufficient? How important do you rate CP into your overall strategies?

I suspect I'm a minority but I rate CP as completely unimportant but that's because I tend to forget what I have access to so I plan as if they don't exist.

pm713 wrote:
I suspect I'm a minority but I rate CP as completely unimportant but that's because I tend to forget what I have access to so I plan as if they don't exist.

Not sure if CPs can be a game changer when you have only a few of them.
I mostly use them for re-rolls of any kind.

I just had a game on TTS where my wraithknight absolutely rinsed face.

I haven't given him much of a runout recently, but I took him sun&star, and used the spiritseer as his personal buffer.

I really think we might need to look again at the unit, I'm going to be running him evey day now for a week to see how it plays out.

But the classic combos make it way tougher than an imperial knight and very deadly in close combat. (ie Fortune & Spirit Shield for defence, Supreme Disdain and Enhance for tapdancing).

I'm also getting a hell of a lot of mileage out of Banshees led by a piercing strike exarch.

I was running expert crafters and savage blades, making me super-accurate in melee too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Disdain/enhance with wrath of the dead and that CW setup, for example, does an expected 29 damage to intercessors.

The problem with the wraithknight is it has pathetically low shooting power for its points cost, roughly half what imperial knights have. Yes, it can be buffed...but it is also designed so that it *has* to be buffed or it's just downright terrible.

Run it sword and board then, for 330pts. It's a really cheap unit now.

I agree, it's a buff unit. But let's not pretend that many of the best units in the game aren't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its big drawback doesn't come from it needing buffs at all - its big drawback is how dependent it is on turn 1 to get those buffs in place before it's shot...

I think the wraithknight is decent enough, sun and star cannons are good at killing marines.
One thing is that enhance only works on infantry and bikes unless I missed something.
Shuriken cannon is worth it for the sword and shield knight, since fire and fade is pretty handy for setting up a turn 2 charge.

Well damn, thanks Heff, that's a big deal on Enhance and dramatically curbs his maximum output with supreme disdain's triple-exploding 6+ to hit.

Agree on shurikan for the sword n'board build.

Sword and board is a bad choice too though, you're not going to catch many vehicles with it and against anything else the flat 6 damage is wasted.

Don't get me wrong, it's not absolutely terrible...but it will pretty much always be outperformed by the three wraithlords or the six walkers you could take for the same points, and hugely outperformed with expert crafters.

Outperformed at what? You're taking a 330pt Wraithknight for a very specific purpose, and it's miles better at that role than either of the options you listed. Threat-maxxed tapdancing tank is not something I'd ask a WL or WW to be. A WK can easily get -1 to hit at range, 4++, 5+++, making it the tankiest superheavy in the game bar none. Ram that down your opponent's throat and you've changed the shape of the battle considerably.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The sword is hardly ever used, except vs other knights perhaps. It's purely about economy. (I prefer sun&star myself.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your 6 starcannon war walkers are doing about 3-4 damage against that buffed Alaitoc WK by the way, unless you get doom/jinx going.

And a 117 point repentia unit, or a 150 point smash captain, can do a number on it, even with all those buffs. Not to mention pretty much anything that is infantry and can therefore just play games with the terrible 8th edition terrain rules. If a WK isn't in combat it's a massive waste of points - it's ranged abilities are incredibly limited for its point cost - and if it is in combat, most dedicated combat units can take it apart in a round or two. And of course it's usually easy just to keep it out of combat too, given its significant movement limitations as a huge model without fly or infantry.

But by all means, don't let me talk you out of it. I'm sure it's lots of fun in non-competitive games. But any competitive list can either drop a knight a turn, or else just ignore it and win the game on objectives. Because if you can't do either of those things, you lose to every 3 knight list you come across. So competitive lists can all do that or they aren't competitive lists.

I agree that smashcaps are the natural predator of most knights. But you're dead wrong when it comes to a buffed WK: a 150pt cap shouldn't even bracket a WK with fortune and spirit shield. Say it's a Blood Angels cap with master crafted thunderhammer, honoring the chapter for an average of 14 attacks, the WK only takes 9.7 damage. That's against the best melee knight-counter in the game.

(On the return attack the WK can proc either supreme disdain or fury of the dead to guarantee the kill vs a storm shield smashcap, or both if you want to be throwing back an average of 22.5 stomps for some reason. Note, that's just a bit below two IKs' worth of stomps.)

That's kind of my point: I don't think many people are taking the thing seriously in terms of its tankiness once that combo goes off. Your opponents best chance of taking it down is a) 1st turn, b) wasting an absurd amount of attacks into it, or c) killing its pyschic support. Even BA Smashcap ain't the answer on his own.

I'll start by stating I have three painted Wraithknights.

I've not run the melee version. I did run the Suncannon and Scatter Shield with 2 Starcannons in an otherwise mechanized list a few months back. This allowed the model to act a bit more independent. I found the Suncannon's random 2d6 for the number of shots to be the biggest detractor. I feel it should be a fixed number of shots and then pointed accounting for that. On the positive, target priority for my opponents were challenged when facing a dozen or so vehicles and a Wraithknight.

The melee version sounds like a lot more than 330 points as Fortune and Spirit Shield appear to be required adding in another 165 points minimum. If your not willing to run the Wraithknight without these, then we are really looking at a @ 500 point model investment into the army.

Some players enjoy and build armies around the psychic combos, so I do agree that there are many other Craftworld units that also require support. I generally never run Dark Reapers without having a Wave Serpent, so I need put aside points for the tank and refine my stategy around it. However, most other units don't cost as much points wise. Losing the Wraithknight at the beginning of the game can be quite an uphill challenge for many players. It is also a model that you need to construct the army around. Specialized detachment, additional CP commitment, and psychic support must be factored and must be a part of the discussion for the inclusion of a Wraithknight.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying Sariger, and I'll shut up about it soon because I dont want to drown the thread in WK stuff.

But here's my response. Yes, a WK bends a list around it, demading certain units to work optimally. I agree that needs to be held in the balance. But equally I think the WK's virtues are often underplayed. Let's take an example detachment:

Iyanden Supreme Command Detachment - 551pts
Spirit Seer (smite, twilight gloom)
Spirit Seer (smite, jinx)
Spirit Seer (smite, jinx)
Wraithknight (sun + stars)
+1cp for detachment, -1cp for wraith host detachment.

Well, now we have an all-in support system for a WK. It will have superb rerolls with the Iyanden strat and using the psytronome, supreme disdain and wrath of the dead it will deliver 45 stomps in one round of CC, one of the most dangerous CC unit in the game of 40k. It will be very hard to turn off your support for it due to duplicate seers, and they will be able to cover different parts of the board, offering 4++ and rerolls to hit at different vectors, making your Wk unpredictable. T2 it will be 4++/5+++, with one of the best defensive profiles in the game. ...

But what happens if you lose initiative and, despite your best efforts, your opponent has brought a list with the guns and the range to drop your WK in one turn before your defences are up? Well, that's a problem, you've lost nearly a fifth of your list. But the Spiritseers don't have to stand around doing nothing for the rest of the game, they're still smite/jinx psykers with 4w and 4++, and running three would synergise well with a mortal wound spam list. Similarly, if an IH player loses an executioner in T1 (only 65pts less than that WK), I assume the player can use their Feirros to aid elsewhere in the fight, otherwise they're just guilty of weird list-writing.

So yeah I think we need a better way of understanding list composition that saying "oh unit x needs units y + z to work optimally? Then the real cost of x =xyz."

I am happy for the discussion as I welcome more insight on using a model I really enjoy.

Maybe I've missed something in the math, but the stomp would be 35 attacks. 4 base, +1 Wrath of the Dead (5), Psytronome doubling to 10, the stomp tripling for 30, finally Supreme Disdain giving an additional 5 hits. Add in getting the Twilight Gloom Spirit Seer within 12" of the enemy unit for rerolls. Hits exceptionally hard.

I am certainly not dismissing the Wraithknight combinations, but I think we can agree that to maximize the utility of the Wraithknight, the additional expenditures (CP, Relic, psychic support) is required. For myself, I find it difficult to justify. As an example, for 528 points I can take an Airwing with 3 CHE (Starcannons, Pulse Laser) with Expert Crafters, Masterful Shots, and Hawkeye and be more efficient. This detachment has very efficient shooting, great mobility to mitigate return fire, and does not require additional CP or psychic support. It can benefit from the support, but it is not overly critical. Those resources can be utilized elsewhere to further increase threat, mobility, and resiliency across the army. This also has a lot to do with my prefered playstyle; not better, but different.

I've used the Wraithknight, but only with the assist of Fortune/Guide Farseer. In all reality, the Suncannon's random shooting profile was the real drawback. If this was more consistent, I would very likely include this model in more games. The 5++/5+FnP felt sufficient, especially with T8 and 24 wounds.

It's arguable, but I think most people now agree that strats like Supreme Disdain do combo with "make x roll" weapons. So for each hit of 6, you do get 3 more hit rolls. This makes it quite good on a WK, as you basically get 50% more attacks from it. So it'd be 8+1 for wrath of the dead (the attack modifier goes after the double, see BRB page 175). That's 27 stomps, with 4.5 6s, so 13.5 extra hit rolls from the strat. So a total of 40.5 on average, more if you have hit rerolls.

Don't get me wrong, a WK is very good in close combat with extensive psychic buffs and CP investment. I just don't think that's really competitive on a model with so many limitations (no fly, no infantry, huge model, has to be close to squishy support models). And it is really nothing but close combat - its shooting is frankly pathetic for its points cost, no matter what choices you take.

I think we're not a million miles away from each other in our assessments! I just wanted to point out that the WK is a) the cheapest 'knight' LoW model now b) has better access to offensive buffs than any other LoW and c) has better access to defensive buffs than any other LoW.

Yukishiro, thanks, been running it as 10 base not 9! And yeah, it's guns are very meh as AT, but passable vs elites such as Obliterators, Custodes Bikes, Crisis bombs, Centurions, etc. 2d6+4 S6 -3 shots isn't nothing but yeah you're right, it pales next to some IK loadouts.

I had a crazy idea for a trip knight list a while back... I will dig it out in a bit if I still have it.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's arguable, but I think most people now agree that strats like Supreme Disdain do combo with "make x roll" weapons. So for each hit of 6, you do get 3 more hit rolls. This makes it quite good on a WK, as you basically get 50% more attacks from it. So it'd be 8+1 for wrath of the dead (the attack modifier goes after the double, see BRB page 175). That's 27 stomps, with 4.5 6s, so 13.5 extra hit rolls from the strat. So a total of 40.5 on average, more if you have hit rerolls.

Don't get me wrong, a WK is very good in close combat with extensive psychic buffs and CP investment. I just don't think that's really competitive on a model with so many limitations (no fly, no infantry, huge model, has to be close to squishy support models). And it is really nothing but close combat - its shooting is frankly pathetic for its points cost, no matter what choices you take.

I appreciate the attacks breakdown. I located the list I used and found the army to be fun. However, it cemented my thoughts about the 2d6 mechanic for the Suncannon. It did provide me a counter assault element and definitely challenged opponent`s target priority. I would play something like this in a single day, local tourney, but would not play this in a larger event.

Craftworld Traits
Expert Crafters
Masterful Shots

Spearhead
Autarch, Starglaive, Force Shield (73)
3 x Nightspinner, Twin Catapult, Doomweaver, CTM (117 each)
Fire Prism, Twin Catapult, Prism Cannon (142)
Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser (100)

Airwing
3 x Crimson Hunter Exarch, Hawkeye (176 each)
2 x Hemlock Wraithfighter, Spirit Stone (210 each)

Lord of War
Wraithknight, Scattershield, Suncannon, 2 Starcannon (386)

Total Points: 2000
Command Points: 5
Warlord Trait: Eye on Distant Events
Relic: Faolchu's Wing

 Argive wrote:
I had a crazy idea for a trip knight list a while back... I will dig it out in a bit if I still have it.

Triple WK isn't very good because the only way to make the model decent involves using psychic powers and strats. So you can only make one good a turn.

It might be fun, don't get me wrong. But it'll be extremely hard to win games with unless your opponent is doing something similar.

What about skathach knights? Are they any better/worse than normal ones?

They solve one huge problem with the WK: 1st turn alpha knocking them out before they can power up.

They double down on buff defences, as you really need to double-gun them to be vaguely worth it, so they need a Spiritseer to 4++ swap with them every turn, meaning you'll need to run multiples of seers to make it viable.

They're essentially way overcosted but could be made to do serious work in the right list.

Their kryptonite is Vect, leaving them with no invuln.

question about the skathach knight model kit- it's $30 more than a normal knight. Does it come with both weapon options or only the weapon option shown on the FW site? I presume that you can still receive the normal knight options in either case. Is this correct?