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Alright. So yeah, I know the codex hasn't come out yet - but I also know plenty of people can see it one way or another. There's links in these very forums to the page I'm curious about, anyways. So I want to know what the other Dakkanauts call on this.

Are Abaddon's Marks of Chaos already included in his profile in the new codex or should they be considered extra?

In the 5th edition codex, the relevant entry reads like this:

"Over the millennia Abaddon has melded the Marks of Chaos granted to him, and now bears a unique mark that combines all of the gifts. ... invul save increased to 4+. The other benefits are INCLUDED IN HIS PROFILE."
(My emphasis)

In the new Chaos codex, Mark of Chaos Ascendant reads like this:

Mark of Chaos Ascendant: "If Abaddon is included in your primary detachment, he must be the Warlord. He also has all four Marks of Chaos. Note that, due to the Mark of Tzeentch, the invulnerable save provided by Abaddon's Terminator armour is increased to 4+."


Although I loathe to reach for more gribbly goodness, considering he is already a great character, I would interpret this to mean that I should include the affects of the marks of Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh in addition to the stats already provided in his profile. If that happens to be the correct interpretation under current RAW, that would make him T6, I7 with the Rage & Counter-Attack rules.

Let me know what you think.

I think you answered your own question when you stated his ruke that he has all four Marks...

Truthfully he answered his own question when he said this
" I know the codex hasn't come out yet" Until it comes out this is just speculation and would fit more inline with the Rumors section in the CSM Section.

 Smolo82 wrote:
Truthfully he answered his own question when he said this
" I know the codex hasn't come out yet" Until it comes out this is just speculation and would fit more inline with the Rumors section in the CSM Section.

Feth me... this too...

unfortunately or fortunately the new dex is already out on the net.

You will find that in the "Marks" section of the Codex, it will state that if the unit has a Mark in its list of wargear/special rules then its benefit has already been included in its profile.

So no Abby will not be T6 I7

40k-noob wrote:
unfortunately or fortunately the new dex is already out on the net.

You will find that in the "Marks" section of the Codex, it will state that if the unit has a Mark in its list of wargear/special rules then its benefit has already been included in its profile.

So no Abby will not be T6 I7

And this is absolutely correct.

Thank you very much, Sir. Asked and answered.

40k-noob wrote:
unfortunately or fortunately the new dex is already out on the net.

Wait what, daaamn those pirates are getting faaaast.

Okay. I thought of another, somewhat related question.

Everyone can see the chaos boons table in the News & Rumors section under the "CSM Roundup" thread. A character rolls on this table when they win a Challenge (and, in fact, the Chaos Champion rule for all chaos characters forces us to issue & accept challenges.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/476112.page


In the book Dark Apotheosis (65, 66) reads a bit like this.

"If a champion had a Mark of Chaos, the Prince instead becomes a daemon of the same Chaos god."

Lord w/ Mark of Khorne > Dark Apotheosis > Daemon Prince of Khorne. Cool.


. . .

What happens if Abaddon wins a challenge and then becomes a Daemon Prince? Does he just cobble all of those rulesets together? Are the marks added to the new Daemon Prince's profile?

Same could be said about the Spawn rolls (21, 22), are the different marks added to the Chaos Spawn's profile? This question is a bit less convoluted since you aren't dealing with "prince is dedicated to X god". You just have a model which has a nomal statline, no special rules regarding or including marks, that is placed and considered to have the Mark(s) of Chaos. Seems that they should add to the profile & rules.


----
To give you an idea of what it would mean should the Daemon Prince gain the simultaneous benefit of all 4 marks

Khorne = Furious Charge & Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh)
Nurgle = Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch), Shrouded, Slow & Purposeful
Slaanesh = Hatred (Daemons of Khorne), Rending, and run an additional 3" (ex; d6+3").
Tzeentch = Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle), re-roll all saving throw results of 1.

In addition it would alter their statline
+1 toughness, +1 initiative

How about this gets tabled until the codex actually releases so peeps can get a chance to read it and respond.
Also there may well be a new FAQ that releases at the same time that might answer some of your question.

Fair enough. Pending Necro = t-minus 54 hours

I got your answer, it says somewhere on the Marks page that marks are always assumed to be included when a profile is shown.

It's easy to miss, I had to read for it for a few minutes.

 Boneblade wrote:
Okay. I thought of another, somewhat related question.

Everyone can see the chaos boons table in the News & Rumors section under the "CSM Roundup" thread. A character rolls on this table when they win a Challenge (and, in fact, the Chaos Champion rule for all chaos characters forces us to issue & accept challenges.)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/476112.page


In the book Dark Apotheosis (65, 66) reads a bit like this.

"If a champion had a Mark of Chaos, the Prince instead becomes a daemon of the same Chaos god."

Lord w/ Mark of Khorne > Dark Apotheosis > Daemon Prince of Khorne. Cool.


. . .

What happens if Abaddon wins a challenge and then becomes a Daemon Prince? Does he just cobble all of those rulesets together? Are the marks added to the new Daemon Prince's profile?

Same could be said about the Spawn rolls (21, 22), are the different marks added to the Chaos Spawn's profile? This question is a bit less convoluted since you aren't dealing with "prince is dedicated to X god". You just have a model which has a nomal statline, no special rules regarding or including marks, that is placed and considered to have the Mark(s) of Chaos. Seems that they should add to the profile & rules.


----
To give you an idea of what it would mean should the Daemon Prince gain the simultaneous benefit of all 4 marks

Khorne = Furious Charge & Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh)
Nurgle = Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch), Shrouded, Slow & Purposeful
Slaanesh = Hatred (Daemons of Khorne), Rending, and run an additional 3" (ex; d6+3").
Tzeentch = Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle), re-roll all saving throw results of 1.

In addition it would alter their statline
+1 toughness, +1 initiative

I'm curious about this too .. Abaddon changing into a Daemon Prince mid game alone is a pretty awesome concept!

But as the rule states, model that rolls Apotheosis ascend to Daemon Princehood, losing everything, yet they retain their "Mark of Chaos to the same God" (and Warlord Trait, ie Black Crusader), which, in this case would be a Mark of Chaos to all the Chaos Gods at once.. So in my opinion, he would definitely be a T6, I7, A6 (on a charge), Counterattack, 3++ DP with all the above mentioned DP Mark perks .. FC, Shrouded, SnP, Rending, +3" run (although he couldn't b/c he's SnP), re-rolls all saves of 1, and I guess Hatred (Chaos Marks) lol

Seems a bit silly now that I lay it all down, but it's definitely written that way, pretty irrefutable..

One further question I would like to add, and maybe it's just really late, or I'm being stupid .. Abaddon's two different specialist weapons .. I assume he can only choose to attack with one at a time, and not both during the same combat? However, since they're both specialist weapons (even though different) he still gains +1 attack for two CC weapons, as written in the BRB, or what? Or do the two specialist weapons have to be the same in order for the bonus to occur?

EDIT: Come to think of it .. wouldn't Abaddon already have Rage and Counterattack USRs due to MoK too (I mean before any Gift/Apotheosis) ? Am I to understand that he can have up to 13 attacks (Rage charge, +1 for 2 CC, and a Daemon weapon roll of 6) ??? All of which reroll 1s to hit and to wound against Space Marines? @_@

You get +1 for having two specialists, no longer do you need two of the same.

As a side note - DPs don't get marks, just "daemon of X", so even if Abaddon gets all 4 sets of benefits, he doesn't get any stat bonuses.

 Slinky wrote:
As a side note - DPs don't get marks, just "daemon of X", so even if Abaddon gets all 4 sets of benefits, he doesn't get any stat bonuses.

This. It doesn't look like Abaddon would get the benefit of all the Marks if he's affected by Dark Apotheosis. The rule says that you must follow the rules for Spawnhood with some exceptions. One of which being that if the Champion had a Mark of Chaos it instead becomes a Daemon of the same Chaos god. The question I have is how does that apply to Abaddon? His entry shows that he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent. In the rules for that though it states, 'he has all four Marks of Chaos'.

I would likely play this as the owning player (of Abaddon) gets to choose what type of Chaos god the Daemon Prince would become. The Dark Apotheosis rule seems to assume that the affected model only has one Mark. GW probably should have put some language in the Mark of Chaos Ascendent about how it works with the Dark Apotheosis rule. Or have some language in the Dark Apotheosis rule about how it affects a model with Multiple marks

-Yad

I would play it as he is a Daemon Prince of all 4 gods and has the benefits as such. Reroll saves of 1, Hatred, shrouded and slow &Purposeful, Furious charge, Fleet and Rending... etc...

Dark Apotheosis says that if the character had a mark the DP is a daemon of the same god.
Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant says he has all four marks.

40k-noob wrote:
unfortunately or fortunately the new dex is already out on the net.

You will find that in the "Marks" section of the Codex, it will state that if the unit has a Mark in its list of wargear/special rules then its benefit has already been included in its profile.

So no Abby will not be T6 I7

QFT.. was just going to answer but saw it has already been given.

Homer

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You get +1 for having two specialists, no longer do you need two of the same.

Ah, thank you, makes sense.

 Slinky wrote:
As a side note - DPs don't get marks, just "daemon of X", so even if Abaddon gets all 4 sets of benefits, he doesn't get any stat bonuses.

Whoops! Completely overlooked that part lol

Yad wrote:

 Slinky wrote:
As a side note - DPs don't get marks, just "daemon of X", so even if Abaddon gets all 4 sets of benefits, he doesn't get any stat bonuses.

This. It doesn't look like Abaddon would get the benefit of all the Marks if he's affected by Dark Apotheosis. The rule says that you must follow the rules for Spawnhood with some exceptions. One of which being that if the Champion had a Mark of Chaos it instead becomes a Daemon of the same Chaos god. The question I have is how does that apply to Abaddon? His entry shows that he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent. In the rules for that though it states, 'he has all four Marks of Chaos'.

I would likely play this as the owning player (of Abaddon) gets to choose what type of Chaos god the Daemon Prince would become. The Dark Apotheosis rule seems to assume that the affected model only has one Mark. GW probably should have put some language in the Mark of Chaos Ascendent about how it works with the Dark Apotheosis rule. Or have some language in the Dark Apotheosis rule about how it affects a model with Multiple marks

-Yad

I'm not really sure how you came to this conclusion.. As you said it yourself, he has all four Marks of Chaos. Why would he suddenly only have one?


Also, anyone happen to know the answer to my edited question, does Abaddon have Rage and Counterattack from MoK? Would he really have between 7-13 attacks on a charge? It clearly states that he has all of the Marks, but the only benefits that MoK has to offer now (since it's no longer +1 Attack) are Rage and Counterattack, however nothing about Rage/Counterattack are shown in his profile.. Are we to assume this is kind of like a Typhus' Manreaper = Force Plaguebringer b/c he has MoN type rule (which btw no longer exists, sadface) ?

There is a chance that Abaddon's entry may rule him out of transforming into a Greater Daemon altogether. Seems a bit bizzare (at worst unfluffy) that the Chaos Lord who has attained all the four marks (done by no-one else) and has not yet ascended to daemonhood (for over 10,000 years) would transform into a Greater Daemon of one god and risk the wrath of the other three.

And does he just 'turn' back to normal at the end of turn 7?

I am aware this is just a game though.....

 wildboar wrote:
There is a chance that Abaddon's entry may rule him out of transforming into a Greater Daemon altogether. Seems a bit bizzare (at worst unfluffy) that the Chaos Lord who has attained all the four marks (done by no-one else) and has not yet ascended to daemonhood (for over 10,000 years) would transform into a Greater Daemon of one god and risk the wrath of the other three.

And does he just 'turn' back to normal at the end of turn 7?

I am aware this is just a game though.....

It's going to be damn hilarious when Abaddon the Despoiler, scourge of the Imperium for ten thousand years ends up with the ignoble end of Spawndom

Talking about the boons table... it might be a silly question but... what is going to happen when abaddon or any other termie lord roll on the +1 to armour save? Would they get a 1+ save, where only meltas and AP1 weapons could deny it? I know it sounds wrong but can't find anything neither on the BRB nor in the new Chaos codex that says to a minimum of 2+

Pg 2. A model can never have an armor save better than 2

Fragile wrote:
Pg 2. A model can never have an armor save better than 2

Got it, thx i was looking under the taking saves section

Page 19, MAXIMUM SAVE

Does anyone have an answer as to whether Abaddon has Rage and Counter-attack, due to MoK in his "all four" Chaos Mark ?

 Beerfiend wrote:
Does anyone have an answer as to whether Abaddon has Rage and Counter-attack, due to MoK in his "all four" Chaos Mark ?

Why would he not ?

Fragile wrote:

 Beerfiend wrote:
Does anyone have an answer as to whether Abaddon has Rage and Counter-attack, due to MoK in his "all four" Chaos Mark ?

Why would he not ?

Because it doesn't say Rage or Counter-attack in his profile at all? o.O

And if he does have those, that means he makes between 7-13 attacks on a charge, 6-12 if charged.

Is that not a good enough reason to ask for clarification? lol

 Beerfiend wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Beerfiend wrote:
Does anyone have an answer as to whether Abaddon has Rage and Counter-attack, due to MoK in his "all four" Chaos Mark ?

Why would he not ?

Because it doesn't say Rage or Counter-attack in his profile at all? o.O

And if he does have those, that means he makes between 7-13 attacks on a charge, 6-12 if charged.

Is that not a good enough reason to ask for clarification? lol

Not really... since you stated the basic rule in your question. He has the MoK, as well as the rest, therefore he gets any benefit of the MoK, which is rage and counterattack. On a charge he has 9-13 attacks, and 8-12 being charged.