Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There's a lot of hand and knee shaking about flyers. I've only seen one played and that was mine. it died the turn it came on. I think there are a lot of places(geographically or meta wise) the fliers don't exist or at least not in large numbers. I think I would be more afraid of large amounts of flying monstrous creatures, although i haven't seen any of those either.

Most of the flying vehicles I've seen, can't put out enough damage to worry about that much anyway. Usually they only get 2-3 options to shoot in a game anyway.

Every army list I see, there is someone saying " you don't have enough anti-flyer" units, etc. Personally, I'm more worried about the 50 power armoured marines or 200 orks or 30 terminators barrellng down my throat than some little jet taking pot-shots at me everyother turn.

Is it just my local gaming area, or are flyers really taking over the game like everyone says on the internet?

I'm not having any issues with them. I'm even debating dropping my only Skyfire unit (Flyrant) because they just aren't that scary.

Yea, I find that my storm talon only really is a late game line breaker and a harassment unit. Not game ending but a nice little thing to have.

late game line breaker

But, except in The Scouring, it's neither a scoring nor a denial unit and so can't get you Linebreaker.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

late game line breaker

But, except in The Scouring, it's neither a scoring nor a denial unit and so can't get you Linebreaker.

He may have meant tactically, not the secondary objective.

buckero0 wrote:
some little jet taking pot-shots at me everyother turn.

Every other turn? What? If you play against any one competent, you'll have a flier reliably hitting you every turn. I also wouldn't class 3 twin-linked lascannons as "pot-shots" or two large blast frag missiles as "pot-shots." Those things are very killy. Also - fliers aren't just mobile gun batteries, they generally contain troops. I've won several games by either dropping troops out onto an objective on turn 5, or having my meltas drop out and finish off the tank my flier failed to destroy, whilst also threatening to get line breaker at the same time. Having the ability to pin-point scoring units or specialised units that would have to walk otherwise is invaluable. My flamer PCS has become one of my favorite units since the addition of Vendettas to my list. Also the fact that most fliers can deep strike, means that you have to be very careful about exposing rear armor on your tanks.

I play a flying circus and it works incredibly well, much of the anti-armor is useless considering it hits on 6s, and my delicate troops are protected so get up-field unmolested. The lowly chimera doesn't cut it for me anymore, I'd much rather spend double the points on a reliable transport that won't immobilise itself on the 1st turn. My local meta doesn't include many fliers, but there are a few people who bring 2+ - DE, Necrons, IG and now CSM, and the best way to counter fliers is fliers, or to ignore them, although I wouldn't recommend that if your opponent is using more than one.

Using 1 flier won't make much of a difference to your opponents, using 3+ they'll start to feel the strain as their anti-armor is rendered inefficient.

I also don't understand how your flier died to turn it came on. Did you put it slap bang in font of an AA turret or something?

In answer to "are fliers scary" all I can say is: They are just like every other unit, scary if used correctly. They are awesome at soaking up anti-tank fire-power so my ground armor doesn't have to.

The maneouvrability restrictions for Zooming make them quite ineffective as a whole (they can rarely shoot at the enemy every turn), and they're usually expensive. Hovering beats the point of having a Flyer. All in all, they have quite an annoyance value, but nothing more. IMO, of course. Here is a breakdown of my experience with Flyers:
Orks: I was tempted to get 3 Dakkajets and 2 Weirdboyz to test how it worked, but whenever you get a Waaagh!, some planes will already have zoomed over the enemy, and I guess it sounds better than it is.
DE: Razorwings got NERFED by the new flyer rules since they can't fire all of their missiles at once. A good way to kill hordes, but die terrifyingly easily. Never used voidravens, they look too expensive to me.
IG: Vendettas are sweet, but due to firepower rather than being a flyer.
CSM: Couldn't get to the LGS soon enough to get the new codex, so no idea.

An unlucky flier can get intercepted the turn it comes on by a quad gun.

To the OP, if you take one flier, make sure it fills a role in your army. Dot take one just to take one. If you run a talon bare it is anti infantry or anti light tank. If you have plenty anti infantry or anti light tank then don't take it. The talon is also good at anti flyers with the sky hammer missiles. It also is a medium tank hunter or heavy infantry hunter with that. Basicly only take it to serve a purpose.

To the guy above me, of course flyers work you you. You have the cheapest and arguably best flyer in the game with your IG army. It shoots a lot and transports well. So not to be rude but just because your vendettas are great doesn't mean flyers are great. You also just listed almost all the teams who could take flyers and said those people take them. No one oter then those teams really have access to flyers anyway. Flying circus is a spam list. So of course it will do well vs most armys out there. So that really isnt a good gauge.

Some flyers are worth it some aren't. If you take one, just make sure it has a good purpose in your army.

Hedkrakka wrote:
The maneouvrability restrictions for Zooming make them quite ineffective as a whole (they can rarely shoot at the enemy every turn), and they're usually expensive. Hovering beats the point of having a Flyer. All in all, they have quite an annoyance value, but nothing more. IMO, of course. Here is a breakdown of my experience with Flyers:
Orks: I was tempted to get 3 Dakkajets and 2 Weirdboyz to test how it worked, but whenever you get a Waaagh!, some planes will already have zoomed over the enemy, and I guess it sounds better than it is.
DE: Razorwings got NERFED by the new flyer rules since they can't fire all of their missiles at once. A good way to kill hordes, but die terrifyingly easily. Never used voidravens, they look too expensive to me.
IG: Vendettas are sweet, but due to firepower rather than being a flyer.
CSM: Couldn't get to the LGS soon enough to get the new codex, so no idea.

At DuelCon it was my first experience using 2 Dakkajets with a Weirdboy and I can honestly say it was the best unit in my army for putting out damage compared to points cost. On the turn that they Waagh! they generally destroy whatever im shooting at. In general I dont think flyers are really all that scary depending on what you run in your army. If you run a bunch of footslogging bodies then generally they arent going to be able to put out enough shooting to destroy everything especially if you balance your list and run 1-2 flyers or ADL etc. Just dont let the flyers intimidate you and play for the objectives and you should do just fine.

 Griddlelol wrote:

buckero0 wrote:
some little jet taking pot-shots at me everyother turn.

Every other turn? What? If you play against any one competent, you'll have a flier reliably hitting you every turn.

Every flier can't be hitting me every turn, or I'm not being aggressive enough. The fact that you have to move 18" minimum is a severe limitation.

I also don't understand how your flier died to turn it came on. Did you put it slap bang in font of an AA turret or something?

24 TL Str 6 shots at a Vendetta killed it in one turn (slightly lucky), 24 TL Str 6 shots put 2 HP on another Vendetta, 12 TL Str 6 Skyfire shots dropped a Storm Raven in one turn (pretty lucky, yeah). That's one turn of fire from my Nid list and doesn't include what my Troops did to his troops. You don't need Skyfire or anti-tank weapons to kill flyers. You need volume of fire with a decent STR.

In answer to "are fliers scary" all I can say is: They are just like every other unit, scary if used correctly. They are awesome at soaking up anti-tank fire-power so my ground armor doesn't have to.

If they're soaking up anti-tank firepower your opponent hasn't built his list right, or you and I consider anti-tank to be different things.

Out of the flyers out there....

Dark eldar:

Razorwing is arguably only great with 2 dis cannons and the stock missiles. And a flicker field. It can kill termies and hordes as basicly any food troops with amazing results. But it sucks at tanks and flyers.

Void raven is more expensive but is a great anti flyer model and can be decent anti tank with 2 S9 lances and a lance bomb. . But for tank killing I would rater take 2 ravages for about the same points as a kitted out VR.

Necrons:

Their transport is cheap and effective. It can carry lots and just beam people in. WONDERFUL. It also has a strong gun to support itself with. This is a great flyer

Ther bomber is ok with it's death ray thing but it just outshines by the cheap transport. It can't shoot flyers with the death ray :-(

Imperial guard:

I don't know much about they flyers but from what I've seen vendettas can carry the most weapons and or troops. Also a GREAT choice for the points.

Space marines:

Storm talon has multiple roles depending how you kit it out. It's good at anti flyer with its skyhammer missiles and can be decent anti tank or anti infantry with other guns. It's more of a role filler and anti flyer help.

Orks:

I don't know a lot about their jets or variants but they can putt out so much dakka. Other then tht I don't know anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I missed storm ravens. But I hasn't ever played against one.

You obviously havn't played an IA Elysian list, Necron airforce, or Eldar IA airforce then. Because I am scared of them. With good reason.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
You obviously havn't played an IA Elysian list, Necron airforce, or Eldar IA airforce then. Because I am scared of them. With good reason.

No, yes, and no.
I made him go first, reserved as much as possible and hid my Tervigons in cover.
His flyers come on and after all the dice are rolled I've taken a couple wounds on either Tervigon (yay FNP and cover saves).
My Fexes and Flyrant come on and I drop 2 Doom Scythes and a Night Scythe with all my shooting (3 units of 2 dakkafexes, dakka-flyrant, 2 tervigons)
Next turn his remaining flyers do some more wounds to different units (again, yay FNP and cover saves) and his Wraiths hit me. The wraiths were far, FAR more annoying than the flyers.

Maybe I got lucky.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

buckero0 wrote:
some little jet taking pot-shots at me everyother turn.

Every other turn? What? If you play against any one competent, you'll have a flier reliably hitting you every turn.

Every flier can't be hitting me every turn, or I'm not being aggressive enough. The fact that you have to move 18" minimum is a severe limitation.

I also don't understand how your flier died to turn it came on. Did you put it slap bang in font of an AA turret or something?

24 TL Str 6 shots at a Vendetta killed it in one turn (slightly lucky), 24 TL Str 6 shots put 2 HP on another Vendetta, 12 TL Str 6 Skyfire shots dropped a Storm Raven in one turn (pretty lucky, yeah). That's one turn of fire from my Nid list and doesn't include what my Troops did to his troops. You don't need Skyfire or anti-tank weapons to kill flyers. You need volume of fire with a decent STR.

In answer to "are fliers scary" all I can say is: They are just like every other unit, scary if used correctly. They are awesome at soaking up anti-tank fire-power so my ground armor doesn't have to.

If they're soaking up anti-tank firepower your opponent hasn't built his list right, or you and I consider anti-tank to be different things.

Sounds like you had 2 Dakkafex broods and flyrant on anti-air duty. As nid players we just kinda had to find an answer to flyers that did no need flyers or skyfire. I think that really skews our views on them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 riverhawks32 wrote:
You obviously havn't played an IA Elysian list, Necron airforce, or Eldar IA airforce then. Because I am scared of them. With good reason.

No, yes, and no.
I made him go first, reserved as much as possible and hid my Tervigons in cover.
His flyers come on and after all the dice are rolled I've taken a couple wounds on either Tervigon (yay FNP and cover saves).
My Fexes and Flyrant come on and I drop 2 Doom Scythes and a Night Scythe with all my shooting (3 units of 2 dakkafexes, dakka-flyrant, 2 tervigons)
Next turn his remaining flyers do some more wounds to different units (again, yay FNP and cover saves) and his Wraiths hit me. The wraiths were far, FAR more annoying than the flyers.

Maybe I got lucky.

To be quite honest, I'd be slightly worried if 6 dakkafexes, a dakka-flyrant and 2 Tervs didn't cause some form damage to ANYTHING an enemy can throw out.
You sound like you're bringing enough big weapons in you're fairly standard lists to pump out a good volume of fire.

But that's not to say everyone is doing the same thing.
Some people blow the amount of damage that fliers can do out of proportion because they get caught by surprise and are left without enough options to blow them out of the sky and then proceed to call hax on them for being "too powerful".
And some other people knowingly bring units to take those suckers out of the sky and don't feel the need to worry about them so much.

I think you've just got enough shots flying out of your units to consistently bring down at least one a turn if you want to, which is more than I can say about some lists I've seen.

If your opponent only brings one or two flyers, I've found them pretty easy to deal with. When it starts getting into cheese territory with 4-5 though, is when it gets hard to deal with.

seanm222 wrote:
If your opponent only brings one or two flyers, I've found them pretty easy to deal with. When it starts getting into cheese territory with 4-5 though, is when it gets hard to deal with.

That too.
Wait till 9 of them are out on the field.
That's when things get a little crazy.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

buckero0 wrote:
some little jet taking pot-shots at me everyother turn.

Every other turn? What? If you play against any one competent, you'll have a flier reliably hitting you every turn.

Every flier can't be hitting me every turn, or I'm not being aggressive enough. The fact that you have to move 18" minimum is a severe limitation.

I also don't understand how your flier died to turn it came on. Did you put it slap bang in font of an AA turret or something?

24 TL Str 6 shots at a Vendetta killed it in one turn (slightly lucky), 24 TL Str 6 shots put 2 HP on another Vendetta, 12 TL Str 6 Skyfire shots dropped a Storm Raven in one turn (pretty lucky, yeah). That's one turn of fire from my Nid list and doesn't include what my Troops did to his troops. You don't need Skyfire or anti-tank weapons to kill flyers. You need volume of fire with a decent STR.

In answer to "are fliers scary" all I can say is: They are just like every other unit, scary if used correctly. They are awesome at soaking up anti-tank fire-power so my ground armor doesn't have to.

If they're soaking up anti-tank firepower your opponent hasn't built his list right, or you and I consider anti-tank to be different things.

If you're not hitting every turn it means your trajectory is off. You might want to plan ahead before you move and turn. The only time my Vendettas fly off the board is when I need to drop something on the way. It's easily possible to move in a square around the board, and it's far more efficient to shoot at unusual or different targets than to have a turn of no shooting, or in your case (most likely hyperbole) 2-3 turns per battle.

That many TL strength 6 shots is unlikely in most armies, also without skyfire, it is very unlucky to take 3 hull points, especially if you evaded. Again, if you know your enemy has that many potential shots against your flier, why didn't you alpha strike those targets? If this wasn't possible, why did you not place the flier in cover against said shooting? There's usually ways around this, and if not, then I guess gak happens.

Anti-tank fire power is similar for both AV:12 and AV:14. Eating meltas, lascannons, MLs that would comfortably hit, although not necessarily penetrate AV:14 are simply ignored by most fliers. Using weaker weapons on fliers is relying far too much on luck, which a lot of players don't like to do. Many would rather risk one 6 to hit then a guaranteed pen, rather than sixes upon sixes.

 Griddlelol wrote:
If you're not hitting every turn it means your trajectory is off. You might want to plan ahead before you move and turn. The only time my Vendettas fly off the board is when I need to drop something on the way. It's easily possible to move in a square around the board, and it's far more efficient to shoot at unusual or different targets than to have a turn of no shooting, or in your case (most likely hyperbole) 2-3 turns per battle.

You have a 45 degree firing arc (total - 22.5 to the left, 22.5 to the right) on those lascannons. Between that and the required 18" move it's not hard to get out of arc, especially since I can premeasure your movement.

That many TL strength 6 shots is unlikely in most armies, also without skyfire, it is very unlucky to take 3 hull points, especially if you evaded. Again, if you know your enemy has that many potential shots against your flier, why didn't you alpha strike those targets? If this wasn't possible, why did you not place the flier in cover against said shooting? There's usually ways around this, and if not, then I guess gak happens.

Yeah, iirc he rolled poorly on evading, but even then - forcing him to snap shot is a win for me even if I do zero damage. And it's tough to alpha strike 7 T6 W4 models that aren't on the board when you fly on.

Anti-tank fire power is similar for both AV:12 and AV:14. Eating meltas, lascannons, MLs that would comfortably hit, although not necessarily penetrate AV:14 are simply ignored by most fliers. Using weaker weapons on fliers is relying far too much on luck, which a lot of players don't like to do. Many would rather risk one 6 to hit then a guaranteed pen, rather than sixes upon sixes.

So maybe I'm spoiled by Nids - our anti-tank was Hive Guard, but I think they're worth far less now and I'm not going to use them going forward. AA is all about volume of fire - trying to snipe a bird out of the air just doesn't work. Remember WWII?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
If you're not hitting every turn it means your trajectory is off. You might want to plan ahead before you move and turn. The only time my Vendettas fly off the board is when I need to drop something on the way. It's easily possible to move in a square around the board, and it's far more efficient to shoot at unusual or different targets than to have a turn of no shooting, or in your case (most likely hyperbole) 2-3 turns per battle.

You have a 45 degree firing arc (total - 22.5 to the left, 22.5 to the right) on those lascannons. Between that and the required 18" move it's not hard to get out of arc, especially since I can premeasure your movement.

By that logic, it's very easy for him to work out where to move in order to maximise fire-power. It also makes the assumption that the potential target can move and then fire. I'd happily let my opponent move his long-fangs, predator, command barge, manticore, etc, etc out of my 45 degree firing arc. I've never had a problem getting my flier to shoot 4 out of 6 turns. Sometimes I have to choose a lower priority target, but it's better than not shooting. You're not including the 90 degree pivot in the firing arc, which is unfair. It also ignores the possibility of entering hover mode, which can be used to great effect on some kill or be killed shots.

Anti-tank fire power is similar for both AV:12 and AV:14. Eating meltas, lascannons, MLs that would comfortably hit, although not necessarily penetrate AV:14 are simply ignored by most fliers. Using weaker weapons on fliers is relying far too much on luck, which a lot of players don't like to do. Many would rather risk one 6 to hit then a guaranteed pen, rather than sixes upon sixes.

So maybe I'm spoiled by Nids - our anti-tank was Hive Guard, but I think they're worth far less now and I'm not going to use them going forward. AA is all about volume of fire - trying to snipe a bird out of the air just doesn't work. Remember WWII?

You're right here, that's why I rely on my autocannons rather than my melta-guns for anti-flier, although I wish I had 24 shots with rerolls as opposed to 10 shots with rerolls.

Edits: A plethora of typos

I've faced them twice so far, both times Vendetta's. I see flyers that can transport troops as being quite annoying.

The last time I ran into them, they undoubtedly cost me 1st place in the tourney. Sure, they can only make a few shots a turn, but being able to drop off a bunch of gaurdsmen in the middle of your army is just rough. It forces you to change your game. So when you've got several rhinos full of Space Wolves screaming at you, and all of a sudden have a couple squads of Gaurd behind you, your target priority gets real squirrely. I was able to drop one of them before it unloaded it's troops, and that helped a huge amount, but the shooting that my Fire Dragons had to do there prevented them from shoring up the collapsing flank that had wolves soon pouring through and winning the game.

Flyers will not single handedly win a game for you (unless your a Cron), but they are a huge strategic asset. Combined arms theory. It's why a military force that combines both ground and air assets will always beat a military that only has ground assets.

Fliers aren't a big problem if there aren't move than 3. Anytime I see more than that, I just want to flip a table.

To me, fliers are heavy support. My storm talons sport lascannons, my helldrakes use the hades autocannons.

Fliers as transports for any codex (except broke-crons) is just too risky for me to suggest outside of friendly games.

I've used my Dakkaraven a few times so far (GK Stormraven with TL Heavy Bolter, TL Assault Cannon, Hurricane Bolters, and Psybolt Ammo), although I have yet to test its usefulness as a transport.

I doubt if it has actually earned its points back in kills (it costs as much as a Land Raider with the above upgrades), but my opponents often are intimidated by it and waste shots on it, so that has helped me out (heavy weapons shooting and missing it are heavy weapons not shooting and hitting my other stuff). But I did pop a Vindicator tank in the last game with the TL Assault Cannon that was about to fire a demolisher round to the face of a terminator squad. In the end, I think it's worth it for me.

I think you can get away with ignoring flyers.

I've played against elysian lists with my mech vets. I had a unit of 2 hydras that were my only anti air,

One managed to last the whole game, the other was destroyed turn 1

Even with upwards of five aircraft on the board, these guys were struggling to put out enough damage to cripple me, and because of their movement & my deployment I was finding myself able to get rapid fire plasma shots into their rear armour with relative ease.

I think volume of fire is definitely the key with flyers. Don't forget if you are against a flying circus list, you can afford to shoot everything you have at flyers, because your opponent has few if any ground forces.

If you're not against a specialised flyer heavy list you can ignore them & dominate the ground game.

Does anyone else wonder why the army that's meant to be a slow mechanical marching wall of undying metal zombies...


....has the fastest and most mobile troops via its spamming of transporting flyers?



do whot?

 Jihallah wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why the army that's meant to be a slow mechanical marching wall of undying metal zombies...


....has the fastest and most mobile troops via its spamming of transporting flyers?



do whot?

Necrons are probably the army that has changed more then any other since they were created. Fluff, Model, and gameplay wise.

Do we really need yet another thread for people to express either extreme opinion of flyers, be it that they are OP or that they are crap, but in either case because they've likely never played at a proper tournament.

Flyers are really good, which means they are scary if you haven't tooled up to deal with them, just like any other type of unit that is really good. They just happen to be harder to tool up for.

In my experience it just helps you decided what your lootas are gonna kill this turn. If they don't take a flier you have to actually think about...... actually think!

Personally, i found that fliers pose a gigantic threat to me, considering the fact that while i do have enough to shoot down a dakka jet, I also have Gazghull and a full kitted out squad of lootas. So then, who do i dump into what, because behind Gazgull, there are four mobs of boys with sthuff......

I can safely say, if I bring a Jet (or 2 soon) against someone that isnt prepared for them, then yea, they can be pretty scary and really badass. I wouldnt look at Fliers as being able to consistently get their points back, but rather are incredibly reliable support units that can REALLY soften up targets or make vehicles go boom. Our group is still pretty new to fliers, so we are slowly getting how to deal with them. In my first game against a flier, like usual in 6th, Im hording and focusing on shooting. I just ignored the flier the entire game. It did do some damage for sure, but I ignored it and still tied the game.

So I think if you dont have what is needed to take them down, ignore them, specially when there is a lot of them on the table. Simply because, the MORE fliers are on the table, the more cluttered their movements will be and after 2 or maybe 3 of them, they will start to cancel their own movements out and either be missing you completely, or have to zoom off the table due to no where to go. If you are set up for taking on fliers, well then the answer is pretty clear. I have to say, I love how Ork fliers are right now, they are cheap as all get out, and so when I have fliers, they dont really cut into my overall list, its more like instead of this loota unit, Ill take my DAKKAjet