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I am new to chaos. Just picked up the codex which i like very much. I am wanting to run a all Khorne list, Going over the prices...it's cheaper to take normal CSM and dress them up as beserkers(and by dress up i mean give them everything the beserkers have including MoK), then it is to take straight beserkers. The Beserkers have to have a advantage over normal csm..am i just missing it?

10 Berzerkers = 200 points
10 CSM, CCW, MoK, Icon of Wrath, veterans of the long war (for fearless) = 200 Points

Diffrences:
Berzerkerks get higher WS and ability to take chain axes (ap4 in CC)
CSM can take more range weapons, reroll charge distance (from the icon) and hatred vs space marines (from veteran skill)

Ty Limbo...of corse now that i read the post...i see it in the codex, lmao

No problem, helped me too since I'm learning the codex too =)

'Zerkers all the way with the old codex. With the new one... I don't know, frankly. Hitting pretty much everyone on a 3 should help them remain the prime choice though.

Consider this thought, the old zerkers got one less attack on the charge (althought they had one more base attack) but +1 initative compared to the new ones for 21 points. The new ones are only 19 points if you wanna add extra, but for a extra 3 points/model, all your berzerkers get AP4 in CC. I think this have to be considerd since it'll be huge vs everything that isn't a space marine.

 Limbo wrote:
Consider this thought, the old zerkers got one less attack on the charge (althought they had one more base attack) but +1 initative compared to the new ones for 21 points. The new ones are only 19 points if you wanna add extra, but for a extra 3 points/model, all your berzerkers get AP4 in CC. I think this have to be considerd since it'll be huge vs everything that isn't a space marine.

Berzerkers gained no attacks this addition. Counter attack and rage are moot points. They had 4 attcks on the charge and three on the receiving end last edition, same as now except after turn 1 they have a crappy 2 attacks where they had 3 ALL THE TIME before. Berzerkers took a massive hit this edition. Don't forget they lost 2 points of leadership which means things like psychic shriek and MSS rape them now. CSM are WAY better as they can retain their bolter AND get a pair of SW, the only thing they don't have is the WS5. Fearless is a none issue almost as in 6th edition an IC gives it to a unit anyhow. It's sad but CSM with MoK make a better cheaper escort for Kharne then his heresy brothers.

You're right about the number of attacks, however, I wouldn't say that rage and counter attack are moot points. You said it yourself:

 Red Corsair wrote:
They had 4 attcks on the charge and three on the receiving end last edition, same as now except after turn 1 they have a crappy 2 attacks where they had 3 ALL THE TIME before.

I think round 1 of combat will be the one to aim for with berzerkers. Sure they arn't as effective round 2 as the old ones where, but that's only true for MEQ foes. If you kit your berzerkers with chainaxes they're more effective than the old ones vs non-MEQs. Also, if you give them veterans of the long war they get to reroll to hits vs most MEQ first round, so that should balance things abit next round (+ it gives you back one points in leadership). This puts them at 23 points/model, but I think that's pretty resonble for a elite choice.

Consider chosen. I know Aby costs a lot, but he does hit like an MC and hides in squads so lets set that aside for a moment.

Zerkers have fearless and +1 to hit in most cases in close combat. They come with furious charge and will have an extra attack on the charge and most of the the time while charging. They can be taken in 20 packs, which is a nice touch if you've got infiltration.

Chosen have far more weapons options, can get the extra attack on the charge and counter attack for just 1 more point than their zerker buddies cost (and with their bolters and weapon options will make muuuuuch better use of counter attack and rhino rushing than their zerker counterparts) BUT are printed with an additional attack and come with a bolter.

You have a ludicrous number of attacks per model with corny chosen. 2 (Base) + 1 (BPCCW) +1 (charge/counter attack) and potentially + 1 (rage). It's entirely likely you'll be starting any round of combat out with 4/5 attacks. That might be after a nicely thinning round of shooting.


My other point is that CSM can benefit from Mr. Fabulous Bile, who is not as horrible as everyone thinks in combat, but that is sort of beside the point. He, having fearless, confers it to one squad he joins, but also gives another squad fearless and +1 str. 13 point BPCCW CSM are a good sight heartier with fearless and a lot more interesting with the +1 to wound on those attacks. You can imagine what it's like when things get corny, but that will also bring your points up. Bringing them forward is going to be a pain though.

I'm not sure berserkers are worth their premium, especially if you also add chain-axes.

You are essentially paying 4 points over a regular bp/ccw CSM with MoK for Fearless and WS5. Sure, they get Furious Charge as well, but you can get that from the Icon. Then paying 3 more for the situational axes seems excessive. The Berserker+axe upgrades shouldn't be more than 5 points together, but there you have it.

I think I would rather save on points, and go with the regular CSM with MoK, Long War vets and bolter/bp/ccw. They work out to 18 points a model, and are effective in all sorts of situations. So depending on the terrain layout and particular situation, they could fire off their pistols and charge in re-rolling distance with 4 attacks each at S5. Or if the distance is too great to risk it, you can let off a rapid-fire salvo, and when assaulted next turn, double tap on overwatch and counter assault with 3 attacks each.

Noise Marines make out a little better, since after you kit them out for bolter/pistol/CCW, you're essentially only paying 1 extra point per model to make them Fearless and give them access to sound weapons. I'm not very impressed with the sound weapons, and I would probably prefer the Troop designation over having to pay a premium to make them fearless elites. Still, the trade-off is not horrible.

Plague Marines are the only awesome cult unit, since they get so many goodies (plague knives, defensive grenades, FNP). And while the Rubricae are also quite expensive, at least they are a noticeable upgrade over regular MoT marines.

So in those terms, Khorne Berserkers are the worst cult unit.

10 man units of berserkers cost the same as regular marines with CCW Mark Icon. Both units should also include veterans of the last war.

Ultimately bererkers get WS 5 but give up a bolter and rerolling the charge. WS 5 gets only a 18% increase in hit probability over WS 4 (vs another WS4 unit) with hatred. If you factor in the increased probability of actually getting to assault with the reroll, the regular marines are probably slightly better in close combat while also retaining ranged ability. Ultimately the poor berserker is a hard sell.

The codex is full of a lot of nuanced choices between similar units and very few that actually grab your attention.

Personally I would say the same thing I said in 5th, use standard CSM instead. Now I will say CSM or Chosen. Berzerkers are just one WS higher and lack special weapons. That one WS higher doesn't mean a damn thing to me.

WS5 is nice, but with the loss of the extra attack, it's not nice enough. Berserkers really got boned this edition.

 Limbo wrote:

10 CSM, CCW, MoK, Icon of Wrath, veterans of the long war (for fearless) = 200 Points

veterans of the long war doesnt give fearless, it gives you +1 Ld
You need icon of vengence for fearless


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:
WS5 is nice, but with the loss of the extra attack, it's not nice enough. Berserkers really got boned this edition.

especially considering you will one day run into death company who for one point more get everything zerkers get and so much more more.

Is it 340 for 20 csm with mok, ccw, no bolter, and icon of wrath, & votlw? Seems like a good unit.

When I looked at bezerkers I was a bit meh on them. Especially buying and Icon that gives you two special rules- one you already have. Reminds me of an axe of blind folly...wargear that gives rage to a model that cannot possibly not have rage. riiiiiiiight...


CSM> Bezerkers. More tactically flexible, slightly less skillful at chopping.

I think i am going to make 2 lists, one with zerkers..one with general dollar zerkers.. lets see what happens lol.