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I've been thinking about this lately, especially since almost every list I see has wraiths, and unfortunately, I'm just a little put off by their models/ don't want to fall into the ring of wraiths being staples of my future competitive lists. I'm curious if a Necron army can still be strong, and yet lack wraith support. Wondering if you guys can help me out?








edited for title grammar

Necrons are a pain to face almost any time, no matter what they field. Scarabs strip off armor like crazy. Warriors glance things to death. Tesla weapons make short work of hordes. Their flyers are crazy. CCB Overlords are really difficult to deal with. They resurrect. Crypteks and Lords are great support. Their vehicles are good. They have great ranged and CC specialists. They assassinate with Deathmarks. They pound you with Doomsday Arks. I think the Necrons are a very well balanced army which does not rely on a single unit to be effective. So by all means, you should be able to go without Wraiths and still be competitive. You can spam flyers, go Tomb Kings-style, go hero-heavy, take Zahndrekh&Obyron... There is not a single Necron list I have been able to defeat easily without help from the opponent after the update.

Hedkrakka got it right, most Necron lists are tough nuts to crack with or without wraiths.

There are plenty of strong lists that don't run Wraiths. Scarab Farm is an example since all your FA slots are filled with Scarabs. Flying Circus also tends to run few/no wraiths, and I've seen versions of Silver Tide and Royal Court Disco Inferno that don't run Wraiths. They are good, arguably the best FA choice for Necrons (because of numerous factors) but are by no means necessary.

Well, I've seen a very successful Necron army with 2 DLords each of which leading a full tesla Immortal squad, 4 Night Scythes, 3 Annihilation Barges, small Warrior squads, and lots of Scarabs.

It's less about how good wraiths are and more about the niche they fill. At minimum, wraiths are a tarpit unit that can block an opponent as he looks to assault our troops (which, of course, is the weakness of the necron codex). As long as you have the mobility to get away (veil-teks or transports) or another unit to do some tarpitting (scarabs or a C'tan if you feel froggy), you can do well without wraiths. Just make sure you have the units to deal with 2+ armor saves and you should have a chance at winning most games.

Yes. Wraiths are good but the necron codex is full of good units besides wraiths. Night/doom scythes, annihilation barges, barge overlords, scarabs + spyders, lance crypteks....you can't really go wrong with these units. Any combination of them can be used to form a good foundation for any necron army.

Let's compare Necron Wraiths to a similar points-cost model with similar tactical applications: The Storm-Shield/Thunder Hammer Terminator.

Both are T4, both have 3+ Invulnerable saves. The terminator will shrug off small arms fire better with a 2+ armor save, while the wraiths have 2 wounds each. Wraiths are also jump infantry that ignore terrain, which makes them faster. Speed and Wounds aside, however, once in close combat both of these units perform well.

Wraiths have s6 and rending, while the TH/SS terminators are s8 AP2. Wraiths are I2, but with whip coils usually go first in CC. THSS always strike last, relying on their 2+/3++ to help them survive to I1.

Why the comparison? It's to show that wraiths fill that shock-troop assault unit in the necron codex much in the way THSS terminators fill the role in marine armies. Yes, you can play lists that don't contain these types of units and expect to win - however the enemy who tries to get into combat will have nothing to fear if these units aren't present.

The other Necron archetypes listed above are a fair representation of the variety the codex allows us to field. Vargard Obyron can single-handedly take out most units with his scythe alone. Anyhow, take that for what it's worth.



tldr; yes, you can win without wraiths.

Don't forget silver tide lists! Warriors everywhere, ghost arcs and res orbs in every squad!

Wraiths are for chumps. They don't do anything other than jump around, charge a unit, and then proceed to get shot up.

I made a nercon list that focuses on using what nercons do, and compensating for what nercons don't. In case your new to the party, Nercons shoot well, and don't assault well.



That list is just absurd, it uses nothing but spiders, warriors, two destroyer lords and however many scarabs you need. It kills all the things at range, and those that make it to melee range are greeted by 9 monsterous creatures, while you can always bring your two lords up to support/ give preferred enemy to the spiders (which is funny). This list doesn't care what your bring to the table, it can kill it no problem and walk away the victor. All this, and it has no wraiths or fliers.

Don't just take the shinys in your codex.

 juraigamer wrote:
Wraiths are for chumps. They don't do anything other than jump around, charge a unit, and then proceed to get shot up.

I made a nercon list that focuses on using what nercons do, and compensating for what nercons don't. In case your new to the party, Nercons shoot well, and don't assault well.

Spoiler:

stroyer lord with sempiternal weave, mindshackle scarabs, res orb

Destroyer lord with sempiternal weave, mindshackle scarabs, res orb

20 warriors

20 warriors

15 warriors

15 warriors

15 warriors

4 scarabs

3 spiders

3 spiders

3 spiders

1995 points

That list is just absurd, it uses nothing but spiders, warriors, two destroyer lords and however many scarabs you need. It kills all the things at range, and those that make it to melee range are greeted by 9 monsterous creatures, while you can always bring your two lords up to support/ give preferred enemy to the spiders (which is funny). This list doesn't care what your bring to the table, it can kill it no problem and walk away the victor. All this, and it has no wraiths or fliers.

Don't just take the shinys in your codex.

But that list moves so slow. You might say the scarabs are the fast movers, but they'll outpace the spiders too fast and lose their back up.

Also, you'd probably want to exchange for at least 20 immortals with tesla guns.

I'm sure your list plays fine where you are but I know this would get destroyed in my group.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Wraiths are for chumps. They don't do anything other than jump around, charge a unit, and then proceed to get shot up.

I made a nercon list that focuses on using what nercons do, and compensating for what nercons don't. In case your new to the party, Nercons shoot well, and don't assault well.

Spoiler:

stroyer lord with sempiternal weave, mindshackle scarabs, res orb

Destroyer lord with sempiternal weave, mindshackle scarabs, res orb

20 warriors

20 warriors

15 warriors

15 warriors

15 warriors

4 scarabs

3 spiders

3 spiders

3 spiders

1995 points

That list is just absurd, it uses nothing but spiders, warriors, two destroyer lords and however many scarabs you need. It kills all the things at range, and those that make it to melee range are greeted by 9 monsterous creatures, while you can always bring your two lords up to support/ give preferred enemy to the spiders (which is funny). This list doesn't care what your bring to the table, it can kill it no problem and walk away the victor. All this, and it has no wraiths or fliers.

Don't just take the shinys in your codex.

But that list moves so slow. You might say the scarabs are the fast movers, but they'll outpace the spiders too fast and lose their back up.

Also, you'd probably want to exchange for at least 20 immortals with tesla guns.

I'm sure your list plays fine where you are but I know this would get destroyed in my group.

What do you do against MC's with that list? Scarabs and Warriors are fine against most armies, but against tyranids I think you're boned.

Luebbi wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Wraiths are for chumps. They don't do anything other than jump around, charge a unit, and then proceed to get shot up.

I made a nercon list that focuses on using what nercons do, and compensating for what nercons don't. In case your new to the party, Nercons shoot well, and don't assault well.

Spoiler:

stroyer lord with sempiternal weave, mindshackle scarabs, res orb

Destroyer lord with sempiternal weave, mindshackle scarabs, res orb

20 warriors

20 warriors

15 warriors

15 warriors

15 warriors

4 scarabs

3 spiders

3 spiders

3 spiders

1995 points

That list is just absurd, it uses nothing but spiders, warriors, two destroyer lords and however many scarabs you need. It kills all the things at range, and those that make it to melee range are greeted by 9 monsterous creatures, while you can always bring your two lords up to support/ give preferred enemy to the spiders (which is funny). This list doesn't care what your bring to the table, it can kill it no problem and walk away the victor. All this, and it has no wraiths or fliers.

Don't just take the shinys in your codex.

But that list moves so slow. You might say the scarabs are the fast movers, but they'll outpace the spiders too fast and lose their back up.

Also, you'd probably want to exchange for at least 20 immortals with tesla guns.

I'm sure your list plays fine where you are but I know this would get destroyed in my group.

What do you do against MC's with that list? Scarabs and Warriors are fine against most armies, but against tyranids I think you're boned.

As long as you drop them while they're in rapid fire range, you have to rely on weight of numbers. But requiring 6's to wound is not a good thing against something that has a 3+ or 2+ armor save. Even with 40 shots, you're looking at about 30 hits average, I think, and that comes out to "maybe" 5 wounds. How many of those do think they'll fail with a 3 or 2+ armor save....well, not enough for that MC to go away, that's for sure.

As a person who plays my warrior/scarab based army against my friends Nidzilla army quite frequently I have to say the MC problem is a real one. Tyranids can saturate the field with too many T6 wounds with good saves to make relying on only Str4 shooting viable.

Sprinkling in Crypteks with Eldrich lances, Deathmarks, or even Heavy Destroyers have really been the key to defeating the TMCs for me. Sure the Str4 shooting helps to chip away at them but you often need the shooting punch of other units to bring the big MCs down before they make it into your lines.

It looks to me like the threatening MCs can be systematically assassinated by the two destroyer lords, assuming they work in unison and force mind shackle scarab tests on the monsters

If my enemy's MC would ever make it to melee, that is

 tetrisphreak wrote:
It looks to me like the threatening MCs can be systematically assassinated by the two destroyer lords, assuming they work in unison and force mind shackle scarab tests on the monsters

You would think so, but that's still only 2 MC's you can tie down and the D.Lords can't be everywhere.

You'd also have to hope that, assuming there is more than 1 model in B2B contact with them, that you roll the random chance and get the MC.

Hey great post. I am a necron player and have battle reports under my dakka dakka name on youtube. The way to beat wraiths is concentrate. Pile up on the end they are on or avoid them. If you tackle them with 3 or four units you will find that the wraiths will fall leaving the warrior squads and such nice juicy targets.
In the games i have played the wraiths have been more psychological than anything.... you want to hit them first so the necron player cant get his whips into position.
They are a pain though i agree


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But.... to answer your question i think necrons are stronger with wraiths.... you just get so much for 35 points as tetrisphreak pointed out up top.
Having tried armies out without the wraiths.. they are still awesome but wraiths are by far the best cc problem solver for the necrons. Kinda like lychguard with warscythes though in 6th... kinda wanna test it

Reposting from other thread:
AV 13 Wall: basically three to five units of 5 Warriors in GAs with a couple of Lance-teks attached to each.
Add to that a couple Stalkers, some Heavy Destroyers, and one or two Doomsday Arks (maybe Annihilation Barges, too, if you had the points and HS slots left over).

Not a Wraith to be had (or any CC option, actually), but that was rarely ever a problem, as not many things were able to make it into assault, thanks to the heavy output of (often twin linked) fire.

If every list required Wraiths to be competitive it would be a pretty ill-thought out codex.

I run 7 Scythes at 2k (the norm now for our gaming group since 6th hit). Not a single cc element in sight so yes it is vulnerable to assaults but at the same time the damage output of what comes in on Turn 2 is just crazy. With careful planning of my initial deployment I can give myself the breathing room I need to survive Turn 1 and let all hell break loose on Turn 2.

Immotekh

Cronotek

5x Deathmarks w/ attached VoD tek in Scythe
5x Deathmarks w/ attached VoD tek in Scythe

5x Warriors with Storm tek in Scythe
5x Warriors with Storm tek in Scythe

12x Warriors
9x Immortals

3x Doom Scythe

ADL w/ Comms relay

Brutal.

 Lukus83 wrote:
Immotekh

Cronotek

5x Deathmarks w/ attached VoD tek in Scythe
5x Deathmarks w/ attached VoD tek in Scythe

5x Warriors with Storm tek in Scythe
5x Warriors with Storm tek in Scythe

12x Warriors
9x Immortals

3x Doom Scythe

ADL w/ Comms relay

Brutal.

Hehehe, Necron Blitzkrieg.
(tons of fliers + lightning)
Excellent.

Thanks for all the replies guys. They've all been enlightening and it's nice to know that our codex is really well rounded that we don't really need to trust in a single unit to stay powerful. I've even managed to come up with a theme for my army as I've read over these posts and thought about it myself. The plan is to use Zahndrekh (and his "moral" codes) which don't rely on the power of wraiths or deathmarks (these may sneak in on occasion...you know because of Obyron...) and instead using Stalkers to supplement my ground forces as force multipliers. Then I will use the more "honorable" Lychguard with Obyron to either be a counter-attack force, or be used as an anvil to pin the enemy to two different fronts.