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I have a unit of BA ASM with a sanguinary priest attached. The priest is closest to an enemy unit which is shooting at them. They wound with one meltagun and four bolters. My opponent elects that I should resolve the meltagun first which results in my priest dying. Now, do the rest of the unit get to take FNP from the bolters since all shooting occur simultaneously or is it lost as soon as the priest is removed as a casualty?

Doesn't the chalice state that it only works as long he's still a part of the unit?

I equate this to the necrons res orb where if you have an orb holder and 3 guys all down awaiting their RP rolls, if you roll the orb holder first and he fails then no one benefits from it after that even though he was there when the rolls started.

Blood Chalice: All friendly units within 6" are subject to the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain special rules.

overkongen wrote:
Blood Chalice: All friendly units within 6" are subject to the Furious Charge and Feel No Pain special rules.

If they're no longer in range of the chalice when allocated a wound then they can't benefit from it. Doesn't matter that all the shooting happened at the same time, the wounds did not.

I think that as all the shooting is done simultaneously that they would still benefit from feel no pain, however this is just a hunch.

 SalamanderMarine wrote:
I think that as all the shooting is done simultaneously that they would still benefit from feel no pain, however this is just a hunch.

^This.

Also, unless my regular opponent has been cheating me, res orbs are in effect until the res orb model fails his RP roll. And I'm pretty sure a units RP roll is all simultaneous as well...at least thats what he's told me.

Well the Sanguinary priest is an IC, so you do have a Look Out Sir roll, that may save the priest anyway. (But all shooting from a single unit is simultaneous, so the chalice would work for that entire shooting attack).

It works the same way in assault. I remember the FAQ coming out a while back stating that if the Priest died during a certain initiative step then all other friendly models got to use the FNP for THAT initiative step.

The ones after that didn't

I don't think the wording on Wound Pools on p14 and p15 say anything to contradict. You can use Wound Pool order to increase you chances of killing what you want to kill, but simultaneous attack would imply the Special Rules would still be in effect even after the priest died was removed.

Snapshot wrote:
I don't think the wording on Wound Pools on p14 and p15 say anything to contradict. You can use Wound Pool order to increase you chances of killing what you want to kill, but simultaneous attack would imply the Special Rules would still be in effect even after the priest died was removed.

Except the chalice says "while within 6 inches of...", it does not say "if at the beginning of the turn (or phase)..."

The shooting may take place at the same time but the wound pool allocation does not.

"All of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether. or not all of the dice are rolled together." Page 13

So all of the models are performing the shooting at the same time.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"All of the models in the unit fire at the same time regardless of whether. or not all of the dice are rolled together." Page 13

So all of the models are performing the shooting at the same time.

Ok, so the shooting does but does the wounding?

Keep in mind that whether you fast roll or not you're "always" allocating one wound at a time and rolling the save for that model. It's always a step-by-step process.

Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

You're asking me why GW would have something operate two different ways in the same phase?

But it would for precisely these situations and their benefits (and drawbacks).

Again, I'll fall back to the rule for the gear/model saying they have to be within 6" of the gear/model to receive the rule. As soon as that model is removed as a casualty, it's no longer in effect. Look at the allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties section. It states you allocate "a" wound and then remove "the model" if it's reduced to 0 wounds. Then you move on to the next model.

I'll reference the Arc rule for the Tesla Destructor - if a unit is wiped out by the initial shot from a tesla destructor then the Arc rule does not come into play even though it says "any unit within 6 inches of the target takes....". The target does not exist anymore and thus you have no model to draw range from.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

You're asking me why GW would have something operate two different ways in the same phase?

But it would for precisely these situations and their benefits (and drawbacks).

Again, I'll fall back to the rule for the gear/model saying they have to be within 6" of the gear/model to receive the rule. As soon as that model is removed as a casualty, it's no longer in effect. Look at the allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties section. It states you allocate "a" wound and then remove "the model" if it's reduced to 0 wounds. Then you move on to the next model.

I'll reference the Arc rule for the Tesla Destructor - if a unit is wiped out by the initial shot from a tesla destructor then the Arc rule does not come into play even though it says "any unit within 6 inches of the target takes....". The target does not exist anymore and thus you have no model to draw range from.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the detail of a Tesla Destructor, so I couldn't comment, except to say that special rules trump general.

When resolving Wounds with characters we are obviously doing so in a orderly fashion, usually because the character has a different save, but also to handle Look Out, Sir! attempts. In a normal shooting attack, since all models fire at the same time, all hits must be resolved at the same time, and all wounds must be resolved at the same time. The fact that we have an orderly method in the Wound Allocation process to handle the character, doesn't change this. Suppose you have a unit with a character that confers a special rule on the rest of the squad, has the same save as all the rest, and for whom you didn't want to LoS! In this case, you would just Fast Dice as described on p16 to resolve the wounds, and all models would get the character's special rule.

If there is a subsequent attack from another unit on the remnants of the target, the character is gone, so the target no longer has the special rule.

Anyway, that's how I think it is supposed to work...

Snapshot wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why wouldn't it?

If the shooting happens at the same time, then the whole shooting process must happen at the same time.

You're asking me why GW would have something operate two different ways in the same phase?

But it would for precisely these situations and their benefits (and drawbacks).

Again, I'll fall back to the rule for the gear/model saying they have to be within 6" of the gear/model to receive the rule. As soon as that model is removed as a casualty, it's no longer in effect. Look at the allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties section. It states you allocate "a" wound and then remove "the model" if it's reduced to 0 wounds. Then you move on to the next model.

I'll reference the Arc rule for the Tesla Destructor - if a unit is wiped out by the initial shot from a tesla destructor then the Arc rule does not come into play even though it says "any unit within 6 inches of the target takes....". The target does not exist anymore and thus you have no model to draw range from.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the detail of a Tesla Destructor, so I couldn't comment, except to say that special rules trump general.

When resolving Wounds with characters we are obviously doing so in a orderly fashion, usually because the character has a different save, but also to handle Look Out, Sir! attempts. In a normal shooting attack, since all models fire at the same time, all hits must be resolved at the same time, and all wounds must be resolved at the same time. The fact that we have an orderly method in the Wound Allocation process to handle the character, doesn't change this. Suppose you have a unit with a character that confers a special rule on the rest of the squad, has the same save as all the rest, and for whom you didn't want to LoS! In this case, you would just Fast Dice as described on p16 to resolve the wounds, and all models would get the character's special rule.

If there is a subsequent attack from another unit on the remnants of the target, the character is gone, so the target no longer has the special rule.

Anyway, that's how I think it is supposed to work...

You're incorrect, to be blunt. Look at the allocation and casualty removal rules, no matter if there is a character or not in the group, handling wounds is ALWAYS on a model by model basis, one at a time, regardless to how you roll for the saves.

And in your example if said piece of wargear benefited the unit for that particular shooting attack and he was at the front you should absolutely NOT fast roll.

Fair enough if you disagree. I think you're confusing "in order" with "orderly", but I've made my case for why I think the unit should get the character's special rule for that shooting attack. Of course, if it was CC, it would be a different story, because the game has a specific mechanic to handle attacks happening non-simultaneously.

As soon as you remove the model, you cannot measure the AoE from the model, meaning no model benefits. Total RAW because you have no permission to leave the model on the table

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As soon as you remove the model, you cannot measure the AoE from the model, meaning no model benefits. Total RAW because you have no permission to leave the model on the table

You're kind of missing the point that all the shooting happens simultaneously. In the "real time version" of the game, all the shots would have hit and "wounded" at the same time. The melta-gun is not shot first, nor are the bolters.

Yeah. Simultaneous means simultaneous. FNP applies.

All the shooting from a given unit is resolved simultaneously. Just like all attacks at a given Initiative step in a given combat.

In the scenario given in the OP, it's a single unit firing, which means the Priest is wounded simultaneously with the guys wounded by the Bolters. They get their FNP.

If another unit then shoots the now-not-in-Priest-range squad later in the same shooting phase, they won't have FNP anymore.

 Mannahnin wrote:
All the shooting from a given unit is resolved simultaneously. Just like all attacks at a given Initiative step in a given combat.

In the scenario given in the OP, it's a single unit firing, which means the Priest is wounded simultaneously with the guys wounded by the Bolters. They get their FNP.

If another unit then shoots the now-not-in-Priest-range squad later in the same shooting phase, they won't have FNP anymore.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step. I don't see how those can be resolved the same but different.

Or more so, I don't see how when a model is "removed as a casualty" it's special rules persist throughout. The removal rules and the chalice rules don't allow special rules to persist after a model has been removed as a casualty, and casualty removal is immediately after a failed save if brought to 0 wounds. You then move on to another model to resolve its allocated wound and so on.

The rulebook tells us that the wounds are happening simultaneously, though.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step

For example?

Kev, they persist through an initiative step in a close combat too. This is the same thing.

The FNP retains through one more phase step.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The rulebook tells us that the wounds are happening simultaneously, though.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step

For example?

Rolling for reanimation protocols is the first that comes to mind. Specifically rolling for RP on a model with a res orb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Kev, they persist through an initiative step in a close combat too. This is the same thing.

It shouldn't. It's only in effect while units are within 6" of it...if they're not within 6" of it how are they still affected by it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kenc wrote:
The FNP retains through one more phase step.

Reference?

 Kevin949 wrote:

kenc wrote:
The FNP retains through one more phase step.

Reference?

It's a blessing...

kenc wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

kenc wrote:
The FNP retains through one more phase step.

Reference?

It's a blessing...

So is Gesundheit.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The rulebook tells us that the wounds are happening simultaneously, though.

There are other things that "happen simultaneously" but the outcome of 1 roll can and will affect the outcome of further rolls in that same simultaneous step

For example?

Rolling for reanimation protocols is the first that comes to mind. Specifically rolling for RP on a model with a res orb.

That FAQ answer is just dumb, and I disagree that it's an applicable precedent.

 Kevin949 wrote:

kenc wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

kenc wrote:
The FNP retains through one more phase step.

Reference?

It's a blessing...

So is Gesundheit.

And all blessings last until the next player turn.
Pg 64 BRB
Unless otherwise stated, last until the end of the following turn.