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I used to use 2 Land Raiders to transport my Thousand Son squads because Land Raiders don't necessarily give up First Blood as easily as Rhinos and they are more likely to protect Thousand Sons from early game small-arm fire. I have not used rhinos that much so I was looking for some feedback on what people think about using Rhinos vs Land Raiders and why?

Obvious cons to Land Raiders are the cost and moving limits the firepower.

Pros for me were not giving up First Blood as easily, protecting Thousand Sons from small-arms fire better/longer and being able to move up, get out, rapid fire then charge.

I've found that in my meta, if I keep enough threats spaced out in front of my Land Raiders (like CSM terminators/Oblits) that my Land Raiders generally survived the whole game and provided good firepower.

It's rather simple; why pay through the nose for an Assault Vehicle for a unit that doesn't want to assault?

Who on earth uses a 250pt Land Raider to help your Thousand Sons get into assault?

So, instead of looking at the issue in its entirety, you guys pick out one small reason to attack and call it a day? Not very constructive. As I mentioned, the other reasons to take a LR are hopefully denying First Blood, protecting the Thousand Sons from shooting longer which in turn can allow them to do more damage at later points in the game.

Lastly, Thousand Sons are still Space Marines and a decent round of shooting before charging could do a decent and amount, perhaps good enough to finish off the target. Usually, by the time you are within Rapid Fire range, you will be charged anyway so why not charge what;s left of your target yourself?

I usually have a unit of Terminators nearby to help out if things go bad, anyway,

rhinos give away first blood to quickly I won't even run rhinos anymore because of that.

Indeed, perhaps if you take Rhinos, put them in reserves?

We're attacking you for pointing out how one option makes no sense? Get real mate!

If you are going to open a thread and ask a question, don't expect everyone to tell you what you want to hear. That's not what discussion boards are for.

As for ignoring the entirety of the situation, if one small reason is enough to put a unit on the shelf, then no further musing is necessary as that says it all.

So please grow up. If you want to spend 230pts+ on an assault vehicle for a non-assault unit then go ahead, but don't go and act like a baby when you start threads in future and people disagree with you. Better still, if you want a thread for people just to pamper your opinion, then just open a thread saying so. But calling people out as non-constructive simply because they disagree with you will make you no friends.

Godless, I listed a bunch of points and wanted some intelligent feedback/responses.

ALL you responded with was "It's rather simple; why pay through the nose for an Assault Vehicle for a unit that doesn't want to assault?" As if being an assault vehicle is the ONLY reason to get a Land Raider (its not)...Indeed, taking the weakest (or only a single) aspect of another person's argument and attacking it while ignoring any other part of what they said is not constructive and its bad reasoning.

On top of that, you go on to name-calling for someone asking you to put forth more than just responding with a lame question that doesn't even address the things brought up in the original post...

I'm not crying because people disagree with me, I'm just asking for a little more than the very weak point you made. I never said I take a Land Raider only to deliver Thousand Sons to close combat (and you are acting as if I am), it was for other reasons and I was asking for what people thought about those reasons...You didn't even deal with those reasons or give any feedback or even alternatives.

His point is valid.

Land Raiders are too expensive to use just as a transport. They pay alot of points for that assault ramp, not using it is making your list inefficient. And its burning a HS slot that could be getting you a Fiend or Defiler.

Thousand Sons probably don't need a transport at all. MEQ are tough to kill already, and they have invuln saves on top of that. Is not hard to walk (or infiltrate) them into bolter range and keep them there to cut down other marines. The Rhino doesn't provide much survivability, and limits how many can shoot. An LR does help survivability, but the squad can't shoot out, and who wants that when you are paying for an ultra-elite shooting unit?

Thousand Sons really die that quick? Wow...

Land Raiders are too expensive to use simply as bullet shields.

They're no more durable then Tac marines against bolters. They just gain durability vs AP3 and better.

Grey, his point is valid, yes, but his point is irrelevant in light of what I was saying about Land Raiders. The ability to use the Assault Ramp is a nifty one but its not the only reason to take a Land Raider and its not a reason in and of itself not to take one either.

Also, comparing a Land Raider to a Defiler or a Fiend isn't the best comparison because they cost almost as much as a Land Raider but don't necessarily offer as much and are easier to kill. Still, they are good units in their own right and you can take Land Raiders as dedicated transports for terminator units and free up the HS slots.

For me, their price is the biggest hurdle and if I am playing large games, I might take a few but in smaller games its not really the best thing.

Emperor, I am really bad at making armor saves, rolling a 3+ is like rolling a 5+ with the way I roll (sad times), so that is why I take transports for Thousand Sons...To protect them from a devastating first round of shooting from an enemy as they are tempting targets from lots of anti-infantry shooting. Plus, keeping them in a transport will give you time to destroy other enemy transports to give the Thousand Sons something to shoot at.

I find that Thousand Son shooting really comes into play a lot more in turn 2-3 rather than 1 so you aren't missing out on shooting.

Infiltrating them is a cool idea though, I might try a few games with Ahriman to see how it works. Have you had any experience doing that?

Solofalcon, what would be a good reason to take a Land Raider? I think a lot of people are turned off because of the points cost but one thing I look at is how the current meta has changed. IF melta is less prevalent and people are gearing for less anti-tank, then Land Raiders may be making a come-back in terms of survival.

I think that if you are able to use all of the perks/strengths of something and minimize the weaknesses then its a good thing. That is what people do with Thousand Sons as they are sub-par on paper and in general but if used properly with the right support can add a lot to an army.


One reason I have for wanting to run a Land Raider is because I have one that is converted in a cool way (picture below). Having cool models sometimes make you want to use them no matter how bad they are, though I still find it very hard to run my Forgeworld CSM dreads even with the new rules =(.

Ahhhh this whole thing.

I am of the very strong opinion that Thousand Sons do not need transports of any kind in 6th edition. In fact, I proved this in three games today at the local store. I lost one of the three games and it was by one point against Imperial Fists. Mobility was not an issue.

There's not a single time today where I wished I had either rhinos or land raiders, even in the game I lost. I was pleased with the results.

There's a few of my opponents here on the forums and I bet they would agree with me. Not in the mood to get into a "omg tsons are amazing and viable' debate here, but my short answer to the OP is "you don't need either".

 mortetvie wrote:
I used to use 2 Land Raiders to transport my Thousand Son squads because Land Raiders don't necessarily give up First Blood as easily as Rhinos and they are more likely to protect Thousand Sons from early game small-arm fire. I have not used rhinos that much so I was looking for some feedback on what people think about using Rhinos vs Land Raiders and why?

Obvious cons to Land Raiders are the cost and moving limits the firepower.

Pros for me were not giving up First Blood as easily, protecting Thousand Sons from small-arms fire better/longer and being able to move up, get out, rapid fire then charge.

I've found that in my meta, if I keep enough threats spaced out in front of my Land Raiders (like CSM terminators/Oblits) that my Land Raiders generally survived the whole game and provided good firepower.

You seem to be playing the way i played when i first started. By that i mean you are scared to lose units. This is a game of death and destruction, to fear losing units will be detrimental to your tactics and will hold you back from using units to their potential. Yea, giving up first blood sucks, but someones got to do it, if you play smart it wont be you as often as you fear it will. A good warlord will overcome first blood everytime, there are other special objectives in every mission, like linebreaker, or kill the warlord, etc, plus lets not forget the actual results of the main part of the game!

Using LR because you are scared of losing rhinos, and fearing to put out thousand sons without a transport and losing some marines is no way to play this game, not to mention putting thousand sons in them, that is down right bad. I am not trying to be a jerk here, just putting it how it really is.

I am not trying to be rude, just trying to help man, stop doing what you are doing! Rhinos are supposed to be temporary, thats why they are 30-ish points for gods sake! Who cares if one dies they are cheap on points!

^ Yep. and Thousand Sons shine in the open. The only thing you should be terrified of when you deploy are Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles. Even then, don't be afraid of losing a few.

Using a land raider could be more Tsons, and they are a helluva lot more survivable than a Land Raider. More bodies wins the day for Tsons. Ahriman helps solve the mobility issue. Proffit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mortetvie wrote:

Infiltrating them is a cool idea though, I might try a few games with Ahriman to see how it works. Have you had any experience doing that?

Not to butt in while you reply to someone else, but I've got ~15 games or so with it.

Highly recommend him solves a lot of problems and building lists around *always* having at least one unit to infiltrate is good.

If you must use LR, do it like this instead.

You said you take terminators. Load them into the LR and make them dedicated transports. This frees up the heavy slots they are taking up on the thousand sons. Then if you must take transports for your ksons, load them into rhinos. When you setup place the LR in front and shove them forward. Place rhinos behind the LR and they will be out of LOS completely, if he wants them dead, he has to kill your LR first. This is hwo i used to play in 5th Ed, but i would put zerkers in the LR and plagues/noise marines in rhinos.

You would be far more effective this way, terminators in LR are fare better than ksons in LR, and if you need to take a couple pot shots you can out of the firing point of the rhinos.

All very good advice guys. As I mentioned above (but was editing a post so people posted already) one reason for taking a Land Raider for me is because of the work I put into converting.
as an example =).


Also, its not that I am afraid to lose models as much as I dislike having to take off an entire squad because of the sheer amount of Gauss/Scatter laser/Venom shooting in my current meta (plus I seriously fail a disproportionate amount of 3+/4+ saves). 6th has gone a long way to help, though, since hiding out of LOS means those models cannot die.

I will definitely try playing a few games with Ahriman and seeing how the Infiltrate works.

You made a McDonalds land raider? Who is jumping out of it, the hamburglar or grimmace?

Oh.. very well

I'll have to say that's amazing looking but I feel that Land Raiders are only good in pairs. One can be ignored or killed quickly, 2 can make people juggle their thoughts and mess up when concentrating fire.

Tsons are great against space marines when rapid-firing and subsequently assaulting from a land raider (for obvious reasons)

Not wanting to get into too heavy of a discussion on Tsons specifically but lolz they are a good combat unit. I'd put them in a raider over terminators.

Kevlar, LOL. I can model the gunner as the hamburglar if you like.

Brometheus, I have two landraiders that I generally run and its worked well for me. Is that sarcasm about putting them in a LR over Terminators? lol...

I usually run my terminators in 9 man units for fluff purposes and larger units generally do a better job of killing stuff/tying stuff up so they don't really fit in Land Raiders as I run them.


Maybe if the CSM had a PTMS or was around 200 points, meh,

I would say Grimmace for the gunner.

As for transports for Thousand Sons, no reason to, taking Ahriman solves the issue of getting any units up field where you want them. Not taking the land raider gives you room for more Marines which is always good. Rhino is just tossing away points.

I don't believe Land Raiders quite need to be run in pairs, but I agree with the notion of target saturation. Alternatively, a Landraider could be run alongside a pair of Vindicators or Maulerfiends as these are also immediately threatening targets that warrant shooting. Hell, you could take a Land Raider as a transport for Termies and have 2 Land Raiders and 2 Vindicators/Maulerfiends.

I don't think Land Raiders are good unit now, suffering a points increase but being more fragile due to HP. I would use Thousand Sons on foot alongside Oblits, Spawn and other tough infantry targets. But you seem pretty set on Land Raiders, so just go for it...

I don't really see all the gravitas that people put on first blood, it's 1 VP there are 2 other secondary ones and you get more points from objectives.

So I still wouldn't take a land raider just to try and avoid first blood because then if your opponent really wants it then there is always something else they can destroy, and just because its harder to kill, one lascannon shot can kill it, once it gets to the penetrating table its just as easy to kill.

Spend the points elsewhere, risk giving up first blood and then make them pay for it by taking away even more of their units, that's my philosophy

Land Raiders can be used to extend the radius of bubble abilities (except there aren't many in the new Chaos dex), and have rare twin-linked weapons that Chaos has little access to.

With the points of the fiends and defiler's approaching 200 or more anyway with upgrades, the Land Raider really isn't that bad of a buy at 230 points, being AV14 all around and now being able to move and fire all its weapons (albeit with Snap Fire).

In a Thousand Son list, you don't necessarily have to have the sons themselves in it, but there are alot of things you can do with it.

1) You can have it screen the T-sons and shoot at things with Lascannons and such all day.
2) You can deliver T-sons into the thick of the battle. Stick a fighty Tzeentch lord in there to help out. Soul Blaze + Dark Mace may be fun to try.
3) If you can spare it, some Tzeentch possessed may be a better unit to ride in the Land Raider with the above character added in for fun.
4) Simply keep a cheap unit of CSM's or Cultists in the raider all game to deposit them towards an objective. Land Raiders are tough to destroy in 6th these days.

Anyway, if you have the models and you like them, just give it a try and find out what works for you.

Don't listen to the haters and run what you like.

No, it wasn't sarcasm. Thousand Sons are good in a Land Raider (if it survives).

I'm sorry but rapid fire + charge is underrated and amazing in the right hands.

 Grey Templar wrote:
His point is valid.

Land Raiders are too expensive to use just as a transport. They pay alot of points for that assault ramp, not using it is making your list inefficient. And its burning a HS slot that could be getting you a Fiend or Defiler.

or Havoc or Oblitorators...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whitedragon wrote:
Land Raiders can be used to extend the radius of bubble abilities (except there aren't many in the new Chaos dex), and have rare twin-linked weapons that Chaos has little access to.

Abby in a landraider giving 12" preferred enemy, wont get out.

Rare twin linked weaponry? Like combi bolters that are availible everywhere?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mortetvie wrote:
I used to use 2 Land Raiders to transport my Thousand Son squads because Land Raiders don't necessarily give up First Blood as easily as Rhinos and they are more likely to protect Thousand Sons from early game small-arm fire. I have not used rhinos that much so I was looking for some feedback on what people think about using Rhinos vs Land Raiders and why?

Obvious cons to Land Raiders are the cost and moving limits the firepower.

Pros for me were not giving up First Blood as easily, protecting Thousand Sons from small-arms fire better/longer and being able to move up, get out, rapid fire then charge.

I've found that in my meta, if I keep enough threats spaced out in front of my Land Raiders (like CSM terminators/Oblits) that my Land Raiders generally survived the whole game and provided good firepower.

imho Tsons should be run in LARGE squads to lessen the aspiring champion tax. Too many bodies for a land raider. Maybe a spartan assault tank.

Bro, I agree, that is why I used Land Raiders before (plus getting up there with winds of chaos in previous codex was helpful).

Exergy, I've never ran really large squads of TS but I suppose I can try running 2x units of 18 since the sorcerer really IS a tax at this point in time =(.

I wonder how effective that would be.

 mortetvie wrote:
Godless, I listed a bunch of points and wanted some intelligent feedback/responses.

He posts like an absolute asshat at times, but....this isn't one of them.

 mortetvie wrote:
ALL you responded with was "It's rather simple; why pay through the nose for an Assault Vehicle for a unit that doesn't want to assault?" As if being an assault vehicle is the ONLY reason to get a Land Raider (its not)...Indeed, taking the weakest (or only a single) aspect of another person's argument and attacking it while ignoring any other part of what they said is not constructive and its bad reasoning.

Ok ok check it-
I'ma gonna drop a bunch of meltagun sternguard on turn 1
and kill your landraider
and your 230+p tank just gave me first blood, instead of your 35(maybe+)p tank.
Also your paying an enormous amount of points for a pair of twin linked lascannons and TL HB. It's not an effective points to firepower ratio. The value of the raider is its ability to transport things.

 mortetvie wrote:
On top of that, you go on to name-calling for someone asking you to put forth more than just responding with a lame question that doesn't even address the things brought up in the original post...

I'm not crying because people disagree with me, I'm just asking for a little more than the very weak point you made. I never said I take a Land Raider only to deliver Thousand Sons to close combat (and you are acting as if I am), it was for other reasons and I was asking for what people thought about those reasons...You didn't even deal with those reasons or give any feedback or even alternatives.

He posts like an absolute asshat at times, but....this isn't one of them. And come on, I'm bagging on him in multiple threads, and your getting butthurt by being told to grow up when you reacted childishly to an large flaw in your plan? also-

 mortetvie wrote:

I usually have a unit of Terminators nearby to help out if things go bad, anyway,

Why not put the terminators...in the landraider?

 mortetvie wrote:
Emperor, I am really bad at making armor saves, rolling a 3+ is like rolling a 5+ with the way I roll (sad times), so that is why I take transports for Thousand Sons...To protect them from a devastating first round of shooting from an enemy as they are tempting targets from lots of anti-infantry shooting. Plus, keeping them in a transport will give you time to destroy other enemy transports to give the Thousand Sons something to shoot at.

I hear this abit regarding 1k sons. Its like the times I have fielded them to my mates- FRFSRF or 2-3 tac squads rapid fire them, they melt like they should and my mates go "I thought 1k sons were meant to be, like, tough!" yes, yes they are, against AP1,2,3 weapons- not massed small arms fire.

 mortetvie wrote:
I find that Thousand Son shooting really comes into play a lot more in turn 2-3 rather than 1 so you aren't missing out on shooting.

Really? I just walk up and start belting out AP3 rounds at marines with the new rapidfire rule. Works for me!

 mortetvie wrote:
what would be a good reason to take a Land Raider? I think a lot of people are turned off because of the points cost but one thing I look at is how the current meta has changed. IF melta is less prevalent and people are gearing for less anti-tank, then Land Raiders may be making a come-back in terms of survival.

Transport/gunboat. Transport terminators to midfield. Assault if necessary. Let them do their thang whilst the tank pings shots at other armor, or helps with its HB+laslols against infantry. Vomit bezerkers/MoK marines/MoS CC marines onto the enemy. Vomit terminators onto the enemy (vomit= come down the assault ramp and assault fyi ). Do triple landraiders like Ailaros for gaks and giggles.

 mortetvie wrote:
One reason I have for wanting to run a Land Raider is because I have one that is converted in a cool way (picture below).

How about you put your terms into your macdonalds raider?

Kevlar wrote:
You made a McDonalds land raider? Who is jumping out of it, the hamburglar or grimmace?

DAMMNIT YOU BEAT ME TO IT ><

at least I'm not the only one to see it xD

p.s please to not post double pics of your landraider. We saw it once, we don't need to see it again champ

Jihala, How is holding someone accountable for making a weak point that doesn't address the bulk of what was posted in the original post being a baby? My point was that he didn't have anything constructive to say and acted as if he had just played the ultimate trump card to everything I said, then when I asked him to use some critical thinking skills, to be more constructive and extrapolate, he resorted to name calling...Asking someone to support what they say is not being a baby.

The reason I don't put my terminators in a Land Raider is because I take a 9 man unit and such a unit won't fit in a Land Raider.

Regarding your sternguard example, how do you plan on getting in melta range of the LR when things are deployed around it to prevent you from being able to get there? So easy to say "I just shoot a metla gun at a tank and it goes boom" but against a good player, its not that easy.

Regarding your example of Thousand Sons melting...I am talking about my routinely failing 3/4 out of 6 armor saves over and over and that kind of stuff... that is below average rolling, not being a bad player and complaining about 3-4 tac squads rapid firing into me.