Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had a game last night with my daemons against a Necron army. This was the second time I'd played him. First time went really well since I got a few lucky bolt shots in against his Scythes and his target priority wasn't great. This time he had done his homework - lucky shooting from his flyers took out Fateweaver the turn after he dropped and my Lord of Change died the next turn leaving me with no flyer defence. Not good. Needless to say it was an uphill struggle and I was left with just one Flamer model at the end of turn 6 when the game ended. He had two objectives, first blood, slay-the-warlord and line-breaker, I just had slay-the-warlord.

I tried to keep my daemons alive by staying out of the firing arc of his Scythes. Hull mounted weapons have a 45 degree horizontal & vertical firing arc, which means that they can only shoot down or to the left or right 22.5 degrees. I measured this out by making a diagonal fold on a piece of paper and tried to centre the arc so that the mid-line was parallel to the gun barrel. This means his Scythes needed to stop several inches away from my units so they could hit anything. He judged everything by guessing and almost every time he tried to shoot I managed to keep at least some models, normally ones nearest to his Scythes, safe because he couldn't allocate wounds to models outside his firing arc.

I was made to feel like a total rules lawyer trying to keep my stuff alive this way. His view was that no one else, even in tournaments would do this and that if it was going to be a problem then he could just take his Scythes off their stand, or shorten their stand to they flew much lower to the ground. I said that that would be modeling for advantage and models should be mounted on the bases they came with. I didn't help that I had a mix of old metal (short stands) and new plastic (long stands) screamers and several times managed to keep the shorter screamers alive because they were too close to his Scythes. Someone else in the shop even said that I'd purposefully shortened the flying stalks of the old screamer models. Not true, GW just changed the design & length of the bases in the move from metal to plastic. The old stalk has the model ~0.5 cm above its base, new stalk has it ~3cm above its base. New stalk also has a ball & socket joint (which I've magnetised for ease of storage) where as the old one is just glued into a hole in the model.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? We were playing competitively. He's planning on taking his list to the Throne of Skulls in a couple of weeks and I've just signed up for the January Throne of Skulls and will probably be taking a similar Daemon list. So was I being a TFG for trying to take advantage of poor firing arcs or is this standard competitive behaviour? Can you shorten the stand for a Scythe so it can get closer to a model & still shoot or is this considered cheating?

Thanks.

P.S. My list had Fateweaver, Loc (MoS & BoC), 6xFlamers (Pyrocaster), 5xFlamers (Pyrocaster), 5xHorrors (Changeling), 5xHorrors, 5xHorrors, 7xScreamers, 7xScreamers. So far in 6th I'm at 21 wins, 2 losses & 0 draws with Daemons. His list had Overlord (Command Barge), Lord (Command Barge), 3x1xNight Scythes, 3x1xAnnihilation Barge, 5x10xWarriors (with a few Cryptecs mixed in).

Obeying the rules is how a game is played. If he wants to break the rules than who's really being a TFG.

It appears your list will struggle with flyer spam though, as you have nothing to "shoot" them down without needing a 6 to hit.

I'd suggest you should have raised this issue before the game, as you clearly gave it some prior thought. That way you could both agree on how it should work without the need to constantly correct.

As for ToS the TO will be the judge, so simply call him over and raise your issue with him should you encounter an issue.

Fateweaver & Lord of Change both have Skyfire because they are Flying Monstrous Creatures. Both have bolt (S8AP1), gaze (S5AP3 x3) & vector attacks (S5&6 respectively). Not really enough to deal with flyer spam but taking more FMCs would cripple my list against other opponents and with a bit of luck they can manage 2-3 flyers (like with my first game against him). Still looking for a proper answer against flyer spam & don't think there is one (allies included) that doesn't require so many points dedicated to it that I'm vulnerable to other lists.

First time it came up we checked the rule book , and I allowed him to move backwards a couple of inches (he insisted he'd originally moved 20", not the minimum 18"). This was after movement and in the middle of shooting. Still not enough to see all the models in the target unit, but enough not to waste the shots that actually managed get through my saves.

ChaosDog wrote:
Fateweaver & Lord of Change both have Skyfire because they are Flying Monstrous Creatures. Both have bolt (S8AP1), gaze (S5AP3 x3) & vector attacks (S5&6 respectively). Not really enough to deal with flyer spam but taking more FMCs would cripple my list against other opponents and with a bit of luck they can manage 2-3 flyers (like with my first game against him). Still looking for a proper answer against flyer spam & don't think there is one (allies included) that doesn't require so many points dedicated to it that I'm vulnerable to other lists.

First time it came up we checked the rule book , and I allowed him to move backwards a couple of inches (he insisted he'd originally moved 20", not the minimum 18". This was after movement and in the middle of shooting. Still not enough to see all the models in the target unit, but enough not to waste the shots that actually managed get through my saves.

Where does it state FMC's have skyfire? I was looking for this yesterday as I was having to deal with Flyer spam w/ vector strikes >.<

My list is running 5 FMC's and 2 squads of flamers. No Melta Jaws though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Q: Flyers are entitled to choose whether or not to use the Skyfire
special rule at the start of each Shooting phase. Can Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures also do this? (p49)
A: Yes.

Hmm this would have made that game against Necron flyer spam alot easier ...

In the latest main rulebook FAQ. Didn't help me in this game though. Fateweaver died before he could even target any flyers and the one pen from the LoC just stripped a hull point due to living metal.

Haha people get so uppity about flyer stuff. I had a buddy pull this exact same stuff when I tried to enforce the 45degree arc. He said fine next time I'm coming with a flyer stand 2" off the ground and angled to point the nose down 45degrees haha. And I told him fine I'm gonna call you a cheater and modelling for advantage(we bust each others balls anyways so this isn't as offensive as to a random stranger). Just because they want to cheat to win doesn't make it wrong for you to enforce the rules correctly. Honestly like stated just go over how you want it handled before the game. Then everyone should be cool with it. If they're not the that's their issue.

Just to play devils advocate here. (I use 2 vendettas and both are on stock stands.)

I understand that GW wants them on the supplied bases...but where does it say you can't shorten the stand?

Would you make the same MFA argument with someone putting jump infantry on flying stands? Or Crisis suits on normal bases(it's been awhile but I think they come with flying bases.)?

IamCaboose wrote:
Just to play devils advocate here. (I use 2 vendettas and both are on stock stands.)
I understand that GW wants them on the supplied bases...but where does it say you can't shorten the stand?

You're not using the supplied base then. Anyway, it's obviously MFA.

IamCaboose wrote:
Would you make the same MFA argument with someone putting jump infantry on flying stands? Or Crisis suits on normal bases(it's been awhile but I think they come with flying bases.)?

Depends completely on two things: 1) Does it look like it was done for Rule of Cool or not and 2) Is it ingame advantage or disadvantage to have different base.

For example, putting JI on flying stands is probably not going to give you any real ingame advantage, you'll more likely be at disadvantage because of them. I'm not sure about Crisis Suits, but I don't think it will matter too much either.

IamCaboose wrote:I understand that GW wants them on the supplied bases...but where does it say you can't shorten the stand?

The same place it says you can shorten the stand maybe? Honestly, it all comes down to motivation. If it is being done solely for an in-game advantage then you probably shouldn't do it.

Chancetragedy wrote:
Haha people get so uppity about flyer stuff. I had a buddy pull this exact same stuff when I tried to enforce the 45degree arc. He said fine next time I'm coming with a flyer stand 2" off the ground and angled to point the nose down 45degrees haha. And I told him fine I'm gonna call you a cheater and modelling for advantage(we bust each others balls anyways so this isn't as offensive as to a random stranger). Just because they want to cheat to win doesn't make it wrong for you to enforce the rules correctly. Honestly like stated just go over how you want it handled before the game. Then everyone should be cool with it. If they're not the that's their issue.

LOL I'd make it so we played on a table with 6" terrain all around in that case ^^

You keep your flying demons on the short bases and I'll bring my Rogue Trader Eldar Avatar and call it all good.

Aycee

Aycee71 wrote:
You keep your flying demons on the short bases and I'll bring my Rogue Trader Eldar Avatar and call it all good.

Aycee

Hahaha my friend has one of those...Always nice to have a MC that you can hide behind Dire Avengers.

Nothing wrong with enforcing the rules mang. That's why I hate playing pickup games and prefer to stick to my usual opponents because more often than not I feel the same way, I feel like I'm being anal or a rules lawyer when really my opponent just doesn't know the rules as well and obviously plays with others who are just as loose on the rules. 6th ed is the worst for pickup games.

I'm surprised GW has never made a 45degree templated, I often use the line on the large blast marker to show people what 45 looks like, people often mistake 45 for 90 degrees.

IamCaboose wrote:

Would you make the same MFA argument with someone putting jump infantry on flying stands? Or Crisis suits on normal bases(it's been awhile but I think they come with flying bases.)?

When I got my Crisis suits (granted, this was during 3rd/4th edition), they came with both flying and 40mm base.

mfa for non vehicles is less of an issue seeing as vehicles have very strict los and models pretty much see sphereically from their heads. So ya, if you make a tau suit higher (flight stand or clear stand inserted into a 40mm base) it cuts both ways because anything you can see is also seeing you. Generally jump models are taller/higher than normal models anyway because they're in dynamic poses or have terrain features as part of their feet (ork stormboys, chaos rapters ect). It's just like small models like grots or ratlings, often they can't take cover and shoot at the same time due to their height but they're also often completely obscured by cover and thus can't be targeted easily, so it cuts both ways.

Modelling for advantage is more common with vehicles IMO and anyone shortening their flight stand is obviously MFA.

Taking advantage of firing arcs isn't cheese, its called tactics.

And you flying monstrous creatures should have been shooting and striking those Night Scythes.

iM NOT SURE WHY YOU THINK A NECRON OR ANY FLIER FOR THAT MATTER HAS A 22.5 DEGREE ARC DOWN, or up.

I have never read anywhere this is how it is. So what your saing is since its on a flying base pointing forward theres an arc down. Cuz flyers could never dive and shoot. the guns dont fire in a cone shape out.

Anything in the front fireing arc from min distance Gun Barrel To max distance can be shot wounded and die.

^ this tbh.

Firing Arc's are side to side. There are "rare cases" where there is a vertical arc, but these are limited to land based vehicles. Flyers can be assumed to be capable of diving/accending.

 Rorschach9 wrote:
^ this tbh.

Firing Arc's are side to side. There are "rare cases" where there is a vertical arc, but these are limited to land based vehicles. Flyers can be assumed to be capable of diving/accending.

What do you mean by "rare cases"?

The rules say (as they have said for awhile, as far as I know) that guns that can't swivel up and down are treated as having an arc of 45 degrees. There is also nothing in the rules about Flyers using their manuevering abilities to fire at things outside of their weapons firing arc. That's what the actually manuevering is for.

The rules say "in some rare cases" .. full quote;

"On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place.In this case,players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45°,even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physicallydo that! Additionally,assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45°."

All examples given in this context however are land based vehicles. The flyers section of the BRB says nothing of firing arcs (of any kind).

Why would a flyer not be able to shoot lower? They can't fly higher or lower to get into a good firing position? because it's modeled on a specific height base it is forever limited to that height? If that's the case any model that is too high to embark upon/disembark from that is a flyer transport cannot be used to embark/disembark and flyers modeled lower than surrounding terrain should be disallowed from flying over it. It is assumed they have adjusted their altitude in those cases, why not for firing?

 Rorschach9 wrote:
All examples given in this context however are land based vehicles. The flyers section of the BRB says nothing of firing arcs (of any kind).

By that logic, you never have to follow the side-to-side firing arc rules, either.

The rulebook is set up a particular way: it gives you base rules, then adds more complex rules for more units as it explains these unit types. Unless otherwise specified, these units follow the rules listed previously. Flyers follow all rules for vehicles (they are, afterall, in the Vehicles section) unless otherwise specified. The flyer rules don't say "ignore everything you just read about firing arcs".

Why would a flyer not be able to shoot lower? They can't fly higher or lower to get into a good firing position? because it's modeled on a specific height base it is forever limited to that height? If that's the case any model that is too high to embark upon/disembark from that is a flyer transport cannot be used to embark/disembark and flyers modeled lower than surrounding terrain should be disallowed from flying over it. It is assumed they have adjusted their altitude in those cases, why not for firing?

This is all settled by the rules, which actually do explain that A) embarking/disembarking/assaulting happen from the base and B) flyers ignore terrain when flying over it. If we want to look at what would really happen, then a nose-diving flyer would not benefit from the zooming rules and would be shot down without skyfire. But let's not look at what might happen from fluff. Let's just look at the rules.

I cant believe a Necron lawyer.... whoops, I mean player, hasn't brought up the fact:

In the Newcron codex, both flyers tesla destructors never specify that theyre hull mounted.
Read the Night Scythe entry where it states the TL guns are "turret mounted"

360 degree firing arc.

Did the FAQ deny this? If it did I didnt see it.

 gregor_xenos wrote:
I cant believe a Necron lawyer.... whoops, I mean player, hasn't brought up the fact:

In the Newcron codex, both flyers tesla destructors never specify that theyre hull mounted.
Read the Night Scythe entry where it states the TL guns are "turret mounted"

360 degree firing arc.

Did the FAQ deny this? If it did I didnt see it.

There was a 10+ page thread on even if a Death Ray has turret mounted or not. This argument should be interesting.

gets the popcorn out

Aycee

 Rorschach9 wrote:
The rules say "in some rare cases" .. full quote;

"On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place.In this case,players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45°,even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physicallydo that! Additionally,assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45°."

All examples given in this context however are land based vehicles. The flyers section of the BRB says nothing of firing arcs (of any kind).

Why would a flyer not be able to shoot lower? They can't fly higher or lower to get into a good firing position? because it's modeled on a specific height base it is forever limited to that height? If that's the case any model that is too high to embark upon/disembark from that is a flyer transport cannot be used to embark/disembark and flyers modeled lower than surrounding terrain should be disallowed from flying over it. It is assumed they have adjusted their altitude in those cases, why not for firing?

Wow, thank you for enabling the continued downward slide of the 40k pickup game.

Seriously, vehicles are vehicles, the book makes no distinction between "land based" vehicles in terms of firing arcs. A hull mounted weapon can swivel 45 degrees left/right/up/down which means a 45 degree cone, 22.5 degrees in each direction. This is a pretty fundamental aspect of what a vehicle can and cannot shoot at. You can't simply make s**t up to justify whatever you want, or maybe YOU can...

The game is an abstraction. All 'real life' comparisons to aircraft are moot.

Weapons have a 45 degree vertical arc. It is part of the rules so it has to be followed.

Nothing gives permissions for models on flying stands to change pitch or yaw or height mid-game. Nothing allows them to be modified from the default model assembly instructions so doing so is MFA which is usually frowned upon, and explicitly called cheating by some and banned from many organized play events.

Maneuvering in fliers 'blind spots' is a valid tactic now. Especially since flyers have minimum distances to move which means they are not as easy to fly in and shoot like 5th edition when they were skimmers.

Working as intended, being under a flyer is a safe place to be. Good players will plan ahead with their moves to make sure they have good targets 2 turns in advance instead of crying and trying to cut their flying stands and angle every jet pointing down at the ground at an angle.

 gregor_xenos wrote:
I cant believe a Necron lawyer.... whoops, I mean player, hasn't brought up the fact:
In the Newcron codex, both flyers tesla destructors never specify that theyre hull mounted.
Read the Night Scythe entry where it states the TL guns are "turret mounted"

In the fluff. Not in the actual rules text. Anyway, if you check the actual model, they're obviously hull mounted, there is no point where it could actually turn.
But it doesn't matter, because even if it was turret mounted, it still has only 45 degree firing arc because the the model stops the 'turret' from actually turning. Exactly same way as happens in Stormravens top turret.

nkelsch wrote:
Nothing allows them to be modified from the default model assembly instructions

There is nothing actually enabling anyone to assemble or paint models in the rules section. (But that is a strict RAW standpoint, of course people are going to play with assembled models).

ChaosDog wrote:
I tried to keep my daemons alive by staying out of the firing arc of his Scythes. Hull mounted weapons have a 45 degree horizontal & vertical firing arc, which means that they can only shoot down or to the left or right 22.5 degrees. I measured this out by making a diagonal fold on a piece of paper and tried to centre the arc so that the mid-line was parallel to the gun barrel. This means his Scythes needed to stop several inches away from my units so they could hit anything.

The gun arc can go to 45*. An easy was to measure this is simply to measure from the table to the gun. Then you measure from the gun the same distance forward. This will give you the minimum distance.

Luide wrote:
In the fluff. Not in the actual rules text. Anyway, if you check the actual model, they're obviously hull mounted, there is no point where it could actually turn.
But it doesn't matter, because even if it was turret mounted, it still has only 45 degree firing arc because the the model stops the 'turret' from actually turning. Exactly same way as happens in Stormravens top turret.

Because an ancient xeno species uses the same technology as humans and nothing new that would be impossible or difficult to show on a static model.

Aycee