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If it cannot be represented by the model it should be represented by the rules stating "turret" mounted. If its represented by neither, it's fluff.

ChaosDog wrote:I tried to keep my daemons alive by staying out of the firing arc of his Scythes. Hull mounted weapons have a 45 degree horizontal & vertical firing arc, which means that they can only shoot down or to the left or right 22.5 degrees.

Last I checked it was 45 degrees either side of the weapon, not 45 degrees total.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

ChaosDog wrote:I tried to keep my daemons alive by staying out of the firing arc of his Scythes. Hull mounted weapons have a 45 degree horizontal & vertical firing arc, which means that they can only shoot down or to the left or right 22.5 degrees.

Last I checked it was 45 degrees either side of the weapon, not 45 degrees total.

Actually you're 100% wrong, it's 45 total, 22.5 in each direction.

Pg 72 "vehicle weapons and line of sight"

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

ChaosDog wrote:I tried to keep my daemons alive by staying out of the firing arc of his Scythes. Hull mounted weapons have a 45 degree horizontal & vertical firing arc, which means that they can only shoot down or to the left or right 22.5 degrees.

Last I checked it was 45 degrees either side of the weapon, not 45 degrees total.

Then you havent checked in either 5th or 6th, as it is 45 degrees total

OP back with some more thoughts on this issue.

1. Night scythe has 45 degree firing arc for it's guns and in the game I made a temporary template by folding a piece of A4 paper diagonally. Something else that came up was that the Necron player thought that the arc point could be placed at the very edge of the gun barrel, whereas I thought it should be central to the gun barrel. The barrel was only about .5 cm wide, so it didn't make any difference, but the Necron player insisted on arguing the point anyway. Is there any ruling on this or is it something that can be argued either way?

2. Firing arc determines what can be targeted. So say a unit is half in, half outside the arc with the nearest models being outside the arc since the Scythe got too close to its target. The Scythe can obviously target the unit. So when it comes to allocating wounds how does it work? Does firing arc = visibility or is it true line of sight from the pilot? If it's true line of sight from the pilot then this changes things massively. Some pilots mounted on the top of models can't realistically see more than 5-10 degrees downwards, whereas other vehicles have ~180 degree line of sight (e.g. Helldrake's eyes). In the game I assumed that firing arc = visibility and my opponent didn't argue this. Can't really remember exactly how far up the pilot is on a Night Scythe to know if this would have made a difference. Anyone know if this is covered in the rules or FAQ.

Looking back on the game, most of the arguments were to do with where the 45 degree arc point should be placed and that it should be 45 degrees down, not 22.5 (not true, the rules are clear on this unless you don't understand the concept of an arc). Also I've found in the past that most people seem to mentally visualise 45 degrees as being nearer 90 degrees for some reason. For a tournament, I'd seriously consider making my own 45 degree template and possibly cone. And taking a protractor for the inevitable arguments that my template really is 45 degrees.

1) Not really - just draw along the barrel, so nothing saying you have to do so from the centre of the barrel
2) Firing arc is also the LOS for the vehicle. You cannot allocate to models out of LOS of the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
2) Firing arc is also the LOS for the vehicle. You cannot allocate to models out of LOS of the unit.

So true line-of-sight from the pilot / cockpit window / eyes of a vehicle doesn't count? It's purely down to firing arc? Makes things easier & I'm glad I was right about that in the game.

Still not sure about positioning the arc tip to either edge of the barrel. If you do that the arc is wider by the width of the barrel. Using fairly basic geometry, you've now effectively got a 45 degree arc where actual arc point is embedded into the gun barrel by a distance of 1.207 times the barrel width. So the flyer is effectively "pushed back" by this distance for the purposes of figuring out what fits into the firing arc. This can make a difference.

Indeed - the rules on page 70 tell you that a vehicle does not follow the rules for non-vehicle models, meaning the only time you ever get to draw LOS is from the weapon

It's been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, but where does the idea come from that Turret Mounts automatically grant 360 fire arc?
If the Turret only rotates 90 degrees, then the arc is 90 degrees. The arc is how much it actually rotates.
Turrets do not always mean 360 degrees.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Seriously, vehicles are vehicles, the book makes no distinction between "land based" vehicles in terms of firing arcs. A hull mounted weapon can swivel 45 degrees left/right/up/down which means a 45 degree cone, 22.5 degrees in each direction. This is a pretty fundamental aspect of what a vehicle can and cannot shoot at. You can't simply make s**t up to justify whatever you want, or maybe YOU can...

Perhaps I'm just playing the devil's advocate, but can't the same be said about your position? The rule states you only default to the 45° firing arc in certain rare cases in which the weapon cannot physically move on the model. From the various flyer models I've seen, some of the models where the flight stand connection isn't that tight can easily change their pitch by a substantial amount. And you don't want to know how many people I've seen that place their flyers on the stand 'backwards' (not by ill-intend), which also affects the angle of the model. Are people allowed to do this to change their firing arc? If not, what would be the correct mounting position on the flight stand?

The opinion that a flying model cannot change its pitch/angle of attack and always has to fly perfectly level is just as ungrounded in the rules as the opinion that it can. And in my own opinion, it seems to be more counter-intuitive, even making many dorsal mounted weapons (which GW seems fond of) have a near-useless firing arc, requiring you to balance your model of a downward slope in order to target the ground.

Let's all just keep it civil and ask your opponent/TO before the match and spam GW's email to get them to FAQ it.

 Redemption wrote:
The opinion that a flying model cannot change its pitch/angle of attack and always has to fly perfectly level is just as ungrounded in the rules as the opinion that it can.

Not true. You need permission to do anything - there isn't any permission in the rules to change your pitch/angle of attack.

And in my own opinion, it seems to be more counter-intuitive, even making many dorsal mounted weapons (which GW seems fond of) have a near-useless firing arc, requiring you to balance your model of a downward slope in order to target the ground.

Yes, it leads to a large dead spot for vehicles like the Storm Raven. This was true in 5th edition as well.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
The opinion that a flying model cannot change its pitch/angle of attack and always has to fly perfectly level is just as ungrounded in the rules as the opinion that it can.

Not true. You need permission to do anything - there isn't any permission in the rules to change your pitch/angle of attack.

And where exactly does it state the exact angle it must be placed on the flight stand? Like I mentioned, some of the flyer models don't have an exact way to place them on the flight stand, especially the ones that don't have a backing plate inside the model for the top of the flight stand to rest level against.

The angle it naturally rests at, with no alteration.

If you alter it you have modelled an alteration, and if that is to gain advantage then MfA applies, whcih is not a rule in and of itself but a player convention, which reesults in either the advantage being ignored (you play it as stock) or, in extreme cases, the model being removed from the game or the game lost by the MfA player.

Yes, all vehicle weapons have a restrictive firing arc based on their mounting. Hull mounted weapons (as mentioned again and again above) do in fact have a 45° firing arc.

This leads to shooting to the left or right 22 ½ ° from the mounting of the vehicle, centered the barrel of the weapon. The rules do state that the weapon can also swing up 45°. This implies a similar 45° firing arc, but I would assume that proper vehicle design - I am not shooting the ground in front of me, and all of my targets have some height so I wouldn't need to hit the ground, but clipping their heads would work just fine - would argue that your arc is maybe 5° below the horizontal plane ... you might position your vehicle on an elevation afterall, leaving a 40° arc above the horizontal plane.

As I mentioned, for flying vehicles, conversely, your targets are below you, so your firing arc wouldn't again be centered on the horizontal plane, but about 5° above and 40° below, vastly improving the viable target zone.

The rules do state that your horizontal firing arc is 45° centered along the barrel (for hull mounted weapons) but does not say your vertical firing arc is 45° centered horizontally, it specifically says you may swing the weapon up 45°. That actually implies 0° below the horizontal plane and 45° above it, but then you could never hit anything below you so elevating your vehicles becomes pointless.

I understand this is a permissive rule set that has nothign to do with real world logic, but I tend to disagree, this game attempts to estimate real world (a fantasy world yes, but still) scenarios into logical consice rules. Following the rules is important, yes, a gun hull mounted on a vehicle has restricive movement and if you are flying over a bunch of units, your gun cannot rotate down far enough to hit units that are too close to you horizontally, but anybody designing a vehicle purposed to fly above units and kill them on the ground (or sit on the ground and maximize killing potential) would not design a weapon such that 50% of its available firing arc along one plane was useless. I follow rules and I will be TFG when it comes to LOS and firing arcs, but I also assume the warlords I am fighting have some semblance of logical thought. And when it comes to hull mounted firing arcs, I estimate the -5° to 40° arcs vertically because I want to maximize the life of my troops, yes, but I play to have fun.

RuneLord wrote:
The rules do state that your horizontal firing arc is 45° centered along the barrel (for hull mounted weapons) but does not say your vertical firing arc is 45° centered horizontally, it specifically says you may swing the weapon up 45°. That actually implies 0° below the horizontal plane and 45° above it, but then you could never hit anything below you so elevating your vehicles becomes pointless.

No, it says it may swivel up TO 45 deg (in both the case of the verticle and horizontal movement), not swivel up 45 deg. Big difference.

Well i checked mine at home and how i assembled the base and how my flyers sit if your 1 inch from my night sythe base your going to get hit.

But then again I never park mine that close to the enamy. Im usually dropping dudes out for double tap and Ill need the room.

so because I modeled my bomber as arcing up and away from an explosion caused by the bomb he dropped I can no longer target anything with my dark lances?

There's RAW
There's RAI
and then there's stupid. Don't be stupid.

clever handle wrote:
so because I modeled my bomber as arcing up and away from an explosion caused by the bomb he dropped I can no longer target anything with my dark lances?

There's RAW
There's RAI
and then there's stupid. Don't be stupid.

Stupid to model your bomber that way?

I always have mine turned the way that makes them face downwards. 45 degree arc from the barrel any direction. That's the whole point with flyers, they can be devastating but require careful placement. Nowhere does it state that the 45 degree angle is different for flyers compared to other vehicles. So OP, you were definitely in the right.

You use the base the model comes with so chopping the stand would be cheating imo. Base is part of the stand. There can be an advantage gained by using old models [thinking of rogue trader rhinos] but flyers are a relatively new addition and therefore have the modern bases.

Just on the turret mounted weapon, what is the actual ruling on this in the BRB? Played a game today where the enemy stormraven was trying to work out what it could shoot with its turret mounted autocannons and the turret on the model could only physically swivel a certain distance so that's what we went with. Any further and it would be shooting itself.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I always have mine turned the way that makes them face downwards. 45 degree arc from the barrel any direction.

Just to be exact, the total arc of the weapon is 45 degrees. So what you have is in fact 22.5 degrees to each direction. You might have meant this, but other people might interpret your sentence to mean total arc of 90 degrees.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Just on the turret mounted weapon, what is the actual ruling on this in the BRB? Played a game today where the enemy stormraven was trying to work out what it could shoot with its turret mounted autocannons and the turret on the model could only physically swivel a certain distance so that's what we went with. Any further and it would be shooting itself.

That is the actual rule. Unless the total swivel distance is less than 45 degrees, in which case you use 45 degrees.
Arc of Sight images 1 and 2 on page 72 make it clear.

Anyway, if someone has modelled vehicle for disadvantage, you could resolve this how MFA is usually resolved: Work everything out exactly as if the model was assembled as it was supposed to be. (HIWPI)

page 72 in the rule book cover firing arc for hull mounted weapons.

On page 51 of the necron rule book in the first paragraph it says turret mounted but as Aycee71 has pointed out it is in what just about 100% of the players consider to be the fluff/not rules section.

I own two night/doom scythes and this guns are about as hull mounted as they can get.

Also getting stuff in fire arc with the superior mobility of flayers is not terrible hard either.

Further more at least my sythes droop a bit on the flying stand.

Lungpickle wrote:
iM NOT SURE WHY YOU THINK A NECRON OR ANY FLIER FOR THAT MATTER HAS A 22.5 DEGREE ARC DOWN, or up.

I have never read anywhere this is how it is. So what your saing is since its on a flying base pointing forward theres an arc down. Cuz flyers could never dive and shoot. the guns dont fire in a cone shape out.

Anything in the front fireing arc from min distance Gun Barrel To max distance can be shot wounded and die.

Expressed in a distasteful way - how I loathe caps lock, but nevertheless, true. The arc is side to side, not up or down.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
iM NOT SURE WHY YOU THINK A NECRON OR ANY FLIER FOR THAT MATTER HAS A 22.5 DEGREE ARC DOWN, or up.

I have never read anywhere this is how it is. So what your saing is since its on a flying base pointing forward theres an arc down. Cuz flyers could never dive and shoot. the guns dont fire in a cone shape out.

Anything in the front fireing arc from min distance Gun Barrel To max distance can be shot wounded and die.

Expressed in a distasteful way - how I loathe caps lock, but nevertheless, true. The arc is side to side, not up or down.

While I share your loathing of caps...
The rules really do state up and down.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
iM NOT SURE WHY YOU THINK A NECRON OR ANY FLIER FOR THAT MATTER HAS A 22.5 DEGREE ARC DOWN, or up.

I have never read anywhere this is how it is. So what your saing is since its on a flying base pointing forward theres an arc down. Cuz flyers could never dive and shoot. the guns dont fire in a cone shape out.

Anything in the front fireing arc from min distance Gun Barrel To max distance can be shot wounded and die.

Expressed in a distasteful way - how I loathe caps lock, but nevertheless, true. The arc is side to side, not up or down.

page 72 if you can't find it.

They really do. Hull Mounted weapons are always assumed to be able to pivot 45 degrees in every direction.

I.e. A Cone.

 Bloodhorror wrote:
They really do. Hull Mounted weapons are always assumed to be able to pivot 45 degrees in every direction.

I.e. A Cone.

The opening angle of said cone is 45 degrees, i.e. 22.5 degrees in every direction from the barrels nominal direction.

To be truly pedantic, there is nothing stating that the center of the mounting is the midpoint of the swivel arc. Could the rules be interpreted to say that the gun can only swivel down? or only 10 degrees up and 35 degrees down? etc. etc.

jms40k wrote:
To be truly pedantic, there is nothing stating that the center of the mounting is the midpoint of the swivel arc. Could the rules be interpreted to say that the gun can only swivel down? or only 10 degrees up and 35 degrees down? etc. etc.

The german BRB clarifies saying the gun can rotate 22.5 degrees to the left or right and the same for up or down. So it's from the midpoint and the enveloping surface is a square pyramid.

Minx wrote:

jms40k wrote:
To be truly pedantic, there is nothing stating that the center of the mounting is the midpoint of the swivel arc. Could the rules be interpreted to say that the gun can only swivel down? or only 10 degrees up and 35 degrees down? etc. etc.

The german BRB clarifies saying the gun can rotate 22.5 degrees to the left or right and the same for up or down. So it's from the midpoint and the enveloping surface is a square pyramid.

shucks gosh darn! I'm not german and don't play many of my games of 40K in germany. Unfortunately NONE of the locals here where I'm from allowed us to use our demon princes as FMC just because the GERMAN FAQ explicitly permitted it.

The arc is centered on the direction the gun is pointing. Anything else is unworkable. Claiming you could claim 35 degrees down and 10m degrees up is functionally almost indistinguishable from claiming you have a 70 degree or 90 degree firing arc.

I am reading it as vertically 45 degrees, does not say centered in one direction or another. Just that it has a total of 45 degrees up or down when fixed. the 22.5 degree interpretation does not strike me as right as they never mention that it is either a total LOS, they just say it has a 45. game play wise it is much too difficult to work with. Anyone can make a 45 degree on the fly, not so with 22.5.

Ruleswise and gameplay wise it does not strike me as that way. Otherwise the storm raven assault cannon would need to be like 20 inches away to see something directly in front of it.