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So I was taking a look at Psychic Shriek and it states to minus the leadership of the targeted unit, but what do you do if the unit has a Sergeant for example? When taking moral, pinning, and leadership tests you would use the highest in the group (unless something noted otherwise) but what about when Psychic Shriek is used? Do you use the majority or the highest?

Highest

Guess it depends, what does psy shriek do?

You compare the number rolled with the highest Leadership in the unit.

Edit

. While the above still represents my answer I have a hard time actually finding a rule supporting that.

All I can find is references to Leadership Tests being taken on the highest Leadership.

The wording of Psychic Shriek is;

Roll 3D6 and subtract the target's Leadership - the target unit suffers a number of Wounds....bla bla bla.


...

Had to google 40k psy shriek to figure out what it was. Now knowing it's a primaris power from the BRB. posted below

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Had to google 40k psy shriek to figure out what it was. Now knowing it's a primaris power from the BRB. Yes it will be at the highest Leadership

Is there a place that specifically states it uses the highest?

I am wondering that myself. Look at my edit

The only thing is for leadership tests, use the highest. IIRC it's on pg 7 and 63 of the BGB.

Based off that, and the shooting phase rules. I retract my previous and say to use the majority

Steelmage99 wrote:
I am wondering that myself. Look at my edit

Yeah, seeing as you only use the highest when 'taking leadership tests' and given the fact the psycher rolls the dice and does the subtracting, I'd go with the average. (Groups' been doing it right then).

Majority, or plurality for Americans, with the highest in case of a tie amongst those causing the tie.

This is based off characteristic tests against units, e.g. shooting

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Majority, or plurality for Americans, with the highest in case of a tie amongst those causing the tie.

This is based off characteristic tests against units, e.g. shooting

Totally had to look up what plurality means, we use the word majority more =P

 Jstncloud wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Majority, or plurality for Americans, with the highest in case of a tie amongst those causing the tie.

This is based off characteristic tests against units, e.g. shooting

Totally had to look up what plurality means, we use the word majority more =P

Not really.

3 T3 models, 2 T4 models, 1 T5 model. There's no Majority (defined as over half) but there is a Plurality (one of them has more than the others).

There is no 'unit leadership' stat. There are zero situations where we are allowed to 'average' the stats of a unit and use that. And Plurality tests for LD make no sense and would defeat the purpose of a majority of the way units use the LD stat via upgrade or attached character models.

So while it may not explicitly define unit leadership, we do have rules which tell us what to do with LD in general. If we have to RAI it, then I would follow the established LD rules which are easy to apply and break no rule... Making up rules like 'use average leadership' is a more wrong alternative.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Majority, or plurality for Americans, with the highest in case of a tie amongst those causing the tie.

This is based off characteristic tests against units, e.g. shooting

Totally had to look up what plurality means, we use the word majority more =P

Not really.

3 T3 models, 2 T4 models, 1 T5 model. There's no Majority (defined as over half) but there is a Plurality (one of them has more than the others).

I see what you mean, however you can also define it as a greater number of a part. As there are 3 parts above 3-3/2-4/1-5 , wouldn't the majority be 3-3? However even if I'm mis defining a word, and making up new ones it comes out to the same point. So all is good in the world

rigeld2 wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Majority, or plurality for Americans, with the highest in case of a tie amongst those causing the tie.

This is based off characteristic tests against units, e.g. shooting

Totally had to look up what plurality means, we use the word majority more =P

Not really.

3 T3 models, 2 T4 models, 1 T5 model. There's no Majority (defined as over half) but there is a Plurality (one of them has more than the others).

50% of the models are T3...that is majority in this example as there is nothing else of equal standing (IE 3 T3 and 3 T4, 50%/50%).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:
There is no 'unit leadership' stat. There are zero situations where we are allowed to 'average' the stats of a unit and use that. And Plurality tests for LD make no sense and would defeat the purpose of a majority of the way units use the LD stat via upgrade or attached character models.

So while it may not explicitly define unit leadership, we do have rules which tell us what to do with LD in general. If we have to RAI it, then I would follow the established LD rules which are easy to apply and break no rule... Making up rules like 'use average leadership' is a more wrong alternative.

My terminology was wrong in my post, where I game we've always called it 'average' (not sure why) when in fact it is majority (and if there is a tie, take the highest obviously). No where in this thread has someone said to add all of the LD values together and divide by the number of models in the unit. Furthermore, we are not talking about 'Leadership tests' (or morale/pinning tests). We are talking about a power that takes into account the leadership 'stat' (a characteristic). The rules state when taking a leadership 'test' (typically morale/pinning) that we can use the highest in the unit, the case presented in this thread in no way involves a unit taking a leadership test. This is very similar to the Necron Cryptek flame template that is str 8 but compares itself to the units leadership, which would also be the majority (which I believe is addressed in the Necron FAQ as well).

nkelsch wrote:
There is no 'unit leadership' stat. There are zero situations where we are allowed to 'average' the stats of a unit and use that. And Plurality tests for LD make no sense and would defeat the purpose of a majority of the way units use the LD stat via upgrade or attached character models.

Attached characters only use their Leadership for Leadership tests (page 7) not everything involving Leadership.
No one is saying to average the Leadership - but you should use a Plurality like you would for Toughness when rolling to wound.

So while it may not explicitly define unit leadership, we do have rules which tell us what to do with LD in general. If we have to RAI it, then I would follow the established LD rules which are easy to apply and break no rule... Making up rules like 'use average leadership' is a more wrong alternative.

No, we have rules on how to handle Leadership Tests - that's the only thing in the game (that I can see) that uses the highest Leadership in the unit. Please prove me wrong.

 Jstncloud wrote:


My terminology was wrong in my post, where I game we've always called it 'average' (not sure why) when in fact it is majority (and if there is a tie, take the highest obviously). No where in this thread has someone said to add all of the LD values together and divide by the number of models in the unit.

Technically that is exactly what you said when you say average.

The thing is different stats work differently so by applying generic characteristic test rules to it, then maybe I should get to roll a single die for LD too since that is how other characteristics work.

By time you rely on rolling two dice as the foundation of testing against LD characteristic, you are already changing the rules to rely on part of the 'leadership test' rules over the 'characteristic test' so rolling two dice but not using the highest LD in the unit is picking and choosing rules.

I do not feel there is anything to support that you default to majority LD when a rule is ambiguous if it is a test or not. Any time you roll against LD, it is an LD test, it may not be a MORALE test but it is a LD test and we have specific rules for LD tests which overrule characteristic tests.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, we have rules on how to handle Leadership Tests - that's the only thing in the game (that I can see) that uses the highest Leadership in the unit. Please prove me wrong.

How do you test against Leadership without a Leadership test? I am not sure how you can define which LD to use without following the rules for a LD test since units don't have LD stats.

nkelsch wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:


My terminology was wrong in my post, where I game we've always called it 'average' (not sure why) when in fact it is majority (and if there is a tie, take the highest obviously). No where in this thread has someone said to add all of the LD values together and divide by the number of models in the unit.

Technically that is exactly what you said when you say average.

The thing is different stats work differently so by applying generic characteristic test rules to it, then maybe I should get to roll a single die for LD too since that is how other characteristics work.

By time you rely on rolling two dice as the foundation of testing against LD characteristic, you are already changing the rules to rely on part of the 'leadership test' rules over the 'characteristic test' so rolling two dice but not using the highest LD in the unit is picking and choosing rules.

I do not feel there is anything to support that you default to majority LD when a rule is ambiguous if it is a test or not. Any time you roll against LD, it is an LD test, it may not be a MORALE test but it is a LD test and we have specific rules for LD tests which overrule characteristic tests.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, we have rules on how to handle Leadership Tests - that's the only thing in the game (that I can see) that uses the highest Leadership in the unit. Please prove me wrong.

How do you test against Leadership without a Leadership test? I am not sure how you can define which LD to use without following the rules for a LD test since units don't have LD stats.

A toughness test and a to-wound roll are two completely different things, and so is rolling a value and comparing it to the targeted unit versus the targeted unit trying to check leadership. Here's the thing: when rolling a test for an entire unit, use the highest - when rolling against an entire unit, use the one in plurality. Psychic Shriek isn't a characteristic test. It's an attack.

nkelsch wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, we have rules on how to handle Leadership Tests - that's the only thing in the game (that I can see) that uses the highest Leadership in the unit. Please prove me wrong.

How do you test against Leadership without a Leadership test? I am not sure how you can define which LD to use without following the rules for a LD test since units don't have LD stats.

It's not a test against Leadership.

BRB page 423 wrote:Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 12". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target's Leadership

Units don't have a Toughness stat either. Units don't have statistics, models do.

And average is not the same thing as plurality.
2T3, 1T7 - plurality is T3, average is 4.33.

nkelsch wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:


My terminology was wrong in my post, where I game we've always called it 'average' (not sure why) when in fact it is majority (and if there is a tie, take the highest obviously). No where in this thread has someone said to add all of the LD values together and divide by the number of models in the unit.

Technically that is exactly what you said when you say average.

The thing is different stats work differently so by applying generic characteristic test rules to it, then maybe I should get to roll a single die for LD too since that is how other characteristics work.

By time you rely on rolling two dice as the foundation of testing against LD characteristic, you are already changing the rules to rely on part of the 'leadership test' rules over the 'characteristic test' so rolling two dice but not using the highest LD in the unit is picking and choosing rules.

I do not feel there is anything to support that you default to majority LD when a rule is ambiguous if it is a test or not. Any time you roll against LD, it is an LD test, it may not be a MORALE test but it is a LD test and we have specific rules for LD tests which overrule characteristic tests.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, we have rules on how to handle Leadership Tests - that's the only thing in the game (that I can see) that uses the highest Leadership in the unit. Please prove me wrong.

How do you test against Leadership without a Leadership test? I am not sure how you can define which LD to use without following the rules for a LD test since units don't have LD stats.

Eh, I used the wrong word, but all of the context was towards 'majority' I get tired of the trolobots, trolling out over terminology, I corrected my original post. Furthermore, the question at hand is about the psychic power, not leadership TESTS, the power lets 'me' the 'psychic models' owner' roll 3d6 and subtract the targeted units' leadership value. This is not a test, if it was a test the opponent would be rolling dice, not me.

 Jstncloud wrote:
The rules state when taking a leadership 'test' (typically morale/pinning) that we can use the highest in the unit, the case presented in this thread in no way involves a unit taking a leadership test. This is very similar to the Necron Cryptek flame template that is str 8 but compares itself to the units leadership, which would also be the majority (which I believe is addressed in the Necron FAQ as well).

I couldn't find the similarity in the Necron codex, but I'm not very familiar with Necrons so might have been looking for the wrong thing. Can you spell it out?

Snapshot - instead of rolling to wound against T, you roll against Ld instead, an you use majority leadership in this case

Nkelsch - you are not testing Leadership. no two dice roll. You are taking the sum of 3D6 and subtracting the leadership value of the unit. The unit doesnt HAVE a leadership value, only models do, and we already have a way of determining the value to roll against when using toughness, etc - plurality.

I understand what is being suggested. I just couldn't see any rules that say this is how attacks against Leadership are supposed to work. Someone mentioned a precedent in the Necron codex.

One of the cryptek weapons wounds against Leadership and not Toughness. Abysmal Staff.

Anyone with a Necron codex able to quote. This will inevitably come up in our group as we have 'nids and guard players who have attacks that are affected by it.

It says exactly that, to wound rolls are made vs targets leadership and not toughness

And it works exactly the same as athe assasin weapon which was also S8 against Leadership - you used "majority" ld, not highest

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And it works exactly the same as athe assasin weapon which was also S8 against Leadership - you used "majority" ld, not highest

But you aren't rolling to wound. You're doing a weird combination of generating hits and wounds all at the same time.

What would you do if you rolled a "6" to hit and got a precision hit?

-Matt

You get to allocate any wounds that result, same as normal

HawaiiMatt wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And it works exactly the same as athe assasin weapon which was also S8 against Leadership - you used "majority" ld, not highest

But you aren't rolling to wound. You're doing a weird combination of generating hits and wounds all at the same time.

What would you do if you rolled a "6" to hit and got a precision hit?

-Matt

You would assign that wound to whichever model you wanted and then roll to wound vs his leadership.